The Wandering Eye

for ex-BKs, exiting BKs, Friends & Family of BKs and newcomers to the forum.
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Oliver

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The Wandering Eye

Post02 Jul 2013

Funny thing with the BKs ... you see, one is told several times in the Murli, "criminal vision" is wrong, then the sword of lust is wrong, so much attention is paid on our thoughts and so called "pure vision". These surrendered Brothers and Sisters, who live at the BK centred are letting us believe that they are perfect. Rubbish I say. In my time I have seen many wondering eyes. I have witnessed surrendered Sisters having naughty vision against fellow BKs. I have seen flirtatious behaviour, and even a BK Brother and BK Sister who seem very close indeed.

On the other side of the story; there are broken marriages after coming to the BKs, there are some who have had secret marriages, that the Seniors have overlooked, there have been suicides that I have read about, people going in to depression.

So why are there one rule for others and another rule for the surrendered Brothers and Sisters? It's double standards and pure hypocritical behaviour.
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ex-l

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post03 Jul 2013

We need to just keep documenting it at the moment and point out which ones and which.

If there is a Senior Sister who is bad tempered, sneaky or interfering ... than name her and give examples of what she did. If there is a junior Sister using her sexuality, then explain how ... let the BKs answer the accusations.

Of course, they won't they'll just ignore us as much as they can to begin with but after while so much evidence will be compiled that either they will attack us again or finally break down and admit it is as a mess as they are starting to do on the history front.

Right now, they are trying to bury us (... obviously they think we are dead). Once sufficiently good examples have been documented, then send them to the people and organizations the Brahma Kumaris care about their reputation in front of them the most. Tell them, "look, this is what the BKs say, but this is what they really believe and do". Give some good examples, e.g. they think the interfaith people are weak and easy to impress, so tell them what the BK *really* believe about other religions.

Oliver

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Re: The Wandering Eye more BK NEWS.

Post03 Jul 2013

I have seen many junior Sisters use their sexuality and behave flirtatiously.

One in particular stands out, BK Jagruti Patel. She seems very much interested in men and I was told was once very close to getting engaged to a driver of Janki Kirpalani's in India. Apparently, she lost her courage to get married at the last minute and then went on to blame the whole marriage bug on an ex-BK. She now spends her time secretly running after Rajiv Metha.

Both, in my opinion, should settled down and get married. Darling, do the right thing.

Jagruti has, over the years, chased many men and now, in her early 40s, is pretty much stuck in the BKs. They say Janki Kirpalani doesn't want her there but she is a Surrendered Sister and her own Sister is well respected by Jayanti Kripalani. Needless to say, Jagurti's Father is very wealthy. In the old days, she used to journey to various ice cream shops out of town with a buddy. From what I hear, she still regularly goes to ice cream shops outside of town. No wonder why she is an avid "keep fit" gym member!

There is another couple in the West, Balwant Patel and Nayana Datani, who are as close as you get ... yet they seem envious of students who are married and living happily together. Why don't both of them get a job, leave Gyan and get married? I would say it is obvious that both of them have feelings for each other, or are even mad about each other. I recall Balwant as being Nayana Datani's "knight in shining armour".

I think the above individuals should be named because they are big hypocrites and go about pushing BK principles on others and interfering with them, while not following BK behaviour themselves. I also want to help them because I think they are trapped in the BK system and need to escape. It's not to much "naming and shaming" but naming to set free. It's not just wrong to pretend to be something you are not, or suppress such strong feeling, it's unhealthy.

It's wrong that BKs and the BKWSU pretends they are something else, and sets unreasonable high expectations for newcomers.

silentobserver108

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post03 Jul 2013

I remember silently observing the above too ... I also silently observed Manda Patel of Global Retreat Centre's eyes wandering towards John Ulrich-Sass of Mexico.

Dipika Patel of Leicester centre's eyes wandering on Brother Bhagwanji.
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ex-l

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

Welcome to the forum, silentobserver108.

Is that right? I notice Manda features in John Urich-Sass's new movie. Was he married to kabbalist Ingrid Urich-Sass, also in films? Are they separated now?

kmanaveen

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

Oliver wrote:"So why are there one rule for others and another rule for the surrendered Brothers and Sisters? It's double standards and pure hypocritical behavior."

Common, Oliver. After all most of them are ladies and cannot control y'know.

----
Doctor to BK She: "Your Heart, Lungs, Pulse & BP everything is OK. Now, let me see that little thing which gets you ladies into all sort of troubles!"

She removes her panties, spreads her legs ...

Doctor: "No! No! Please put BACK your clothes on, just show me your tongue!"
----
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ex-l

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

OK. That's bad ... and put me off my breakfast! I think we should call for a BK-type "fullstop" at that. The most trouble most Brahma Kumaris are having in that department is the menopause ... which I think is equally not discussed in BK circles. How many older Sisters were just going crazy because it was that time in their life?

Does BKism help or cure it?

Whilst it might be true of young Western Kumaris, is it so true of Indian Kumaris? What is their experience of sex and sexual urges?

Is there a difference from the experience of those in the West, surrounded by promiscuity and romance, and those in India, for whom love making entails standing under water falls, spouting fountains, thundering trains, and wet saris ... and a big song and dance number with 30 other people.

Oliver

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Re: The Wandering Eye-BK NEWS

Post04 Jul 2013

That was bad, it has put me off my breakfast. The debate was going in the direction that it's wrong. The BKs and the BKWSU pretends they are something else, and sets unreasonable high expectations for newcomers.
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enlightened

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

Kmanaveen wrote:"So why are there one rule for others and another rule for the surrendered Brothers and Sisters? It's double standards and pure hypocritical behavior. Come on, Oliver. After all most of them are LADIES and cannot control y'know.

It's not just the ladies or Kumaris that have wondering eyes you know!! All human beings whether male of female have sexual feelings and urges at some point in their lives ... the Kumars and older men are no less than the Kumaris/ladies

Imposing or forcing celibacy not only surpresses ones urges, however, it creates immense sexual frustration in ones life ...

I mean look at Madhuban, it is full of single males ... you only have to observe carefully to see the flings the Madhuban niwasis have on the Kumaris and women that pass through temporarily ... because a lot of the Kumaris or women are there for a short period of time on each visit, its not so obvious. Many of the Madhuban niwasis discreetly have short flings with many young children, Kumaris or older women ...

No human being can refrain or escape from the natural and biological needs of the body no matter how much they try. the more one tries to surpress these needs or urges, the more one is curious to experience it or want it.

Detachment and celibacy should not be imposed or even suggested in anyone's life ... it should be left to the individual as imposing these ideas are a violation of human rights and human needs and can destroy husband, wife relationships as well as their families. It also prevents human beings on even considering the option of having a partner, getting married, having children/grandchildren etc.

Many BKs or ex-bks will be drawn to watching porn as a result of the suppression of these natural urges and needs. which, in turn, creates even more sexual frustration and possible lead them to addiction to porn, gambling, obesity, comfort eating, other substance misuses, or even violence in more extreme cases including rape.

Many BKs and ex-bks will be scarred with sexual frustration for the rest of their life, unless they are able to find a suitable friend/partner/husband or an alternative healthy outlet.

I was raped and sexually molested one year by a Madhuban niwasi when I was very young. But this Madhuban niwasi has now died!! Then I was molested by another Madhuban niwasi another year when I was young.

Enlightened

kmanaveen

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

Oh! It seems I made some mistakes. I actually was talking about ladies usual and famous habit of better/more speaking and talking abilities than men (and that is why that joke) and not actually about wandering eyes ... but, anyway, I do apologize to all ladies and others too if I hurt anyone. That was never my intention, I do respect you all and every soul ... so please forgive me for that ... Peace!
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Mr Green

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

Enlightened, do you know of this happening often to children in Madubhan?
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enlightened

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post04 Jul 2013

Mr Green wrote:Enlightened, do you know of this happening often to children in Madubhan?

I am sure it does, but I don't go there anymore and am not a BK anymore to know what happens now ... No one can see what is really going on because they are too busy preparing for Destruction, Golden Age and their own personal selfish positions and businesses within the Yagya.

Very often, children and adolescents wonder around alone in Madhuban. It probably wont be until they are older that they are more aware if they have been abused or they will be too scared to mention it to anyone just like I was. There was no protection and I cant really see that it is any different now. I bottled all this for about 30 years because of deep fear. I am still trying to make sense of it all and suffering the consequences.

I am too scared to enter into a relationship with anyone now ... with the fear that they will abuse me and take advantage of me.

The scars are for life ... the fear is so deep ... the journey of recovery seems never ending and unbearable at times.

I even remember male BKs were put in charge of giving childrens classes in the West and that the children's classes were predominantly made up of Kumaris. I noticed Kumaris getting intimately close to the male BK teacher taking the children's class.

Then there were Centre-in-Charges who got close to either Kumars or Kumaris who helped in their service at the centres. Many just used to come to do service so that they could be close and spend time with that Kumar or Kumari.

It's so contradictory messages for a young child or for anyone for that matter.

Enlightened
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ex-l

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post05 Jul 2013

This is very concerning. Even though I had ex-ed a long time before, I was very shocked and surprised when the first child sex abuse reports came out. Of course I would believe it but it shattered a more deeply held and idealistic illusion I must have held about the Brahma Kumaris ...
    And, of course, that is why they knowingly covered it up as much as possible.
The illusion was of, somehow, Madhuban was 'magically' pure and safe, and that the BKs were at least the most 'pure' religion even if their philosophy was crazy.

I am sorry to be stupid here ... and I absolutely was made blind and stupid whilst in the BKs ... but are you talking about actually *sexual* relationships in Madhuban, or just emotional "holiday" type relationships?

That child sex or rapes could be being carried out and not noticed ... not even by their mothers when they came back ... is beyond my reasoning. But
    a) I absolutely believe it, and
    b) I could absolutely believe the mothers would be so disempowered they could not speak out or do anything about it.
I am differentiating the word "rape" as an sexual assault on an adult female here.

Lekhraj Kirpalani might have taught, "sex is worse than murder" but, for me, 'rape is worse than murder' and the only reason it is not treated as such is because the legal system and judiciary has been perverted by having too many upper class males who devalue females. At least in a murder the victim dies ... but the rape victim lives on with the memory of it, and often the child.

There is no "karmic" excuse or handwashing for it. I'd beat the crap out of any BK who told me that it was the child's own fault.

When the first child sex abuse reports came out, I noted that they happened to the same individual as two centers. That to be flagged up there their might be a pedophile circle or network active within the Brahma Kumaris. The chances of it happen to one individual at two centers without some connection were slim, although not impossible as she was white and blonde and so, therefore unusually attractive. A "little angel".

Now you are saying much more is going on ... of course, India itself is a problem. Child sex or rape is often treated lightly by the police, victims tend to be bought off and, at worst, married off to their abuser. And even raped again by them. It's a mess.

When I was a BK, I remember being invited to a children's party and playing with them. Yes, the children felt very comfortable with an adult and were at that age when they will climb over anything and anyone. Obviously, I don't have any sexual attraction to children ... I don't even understand it at all ... but I could see how pedophiles would be attracted to BKism where they are able to hide not having a relationship with an adult and enjoy the trusted access it gave them to children.

Ditto, in another vein, how BKism would also be attractive to gay males and lesbian women, especially in India. If we accept a certain percentage of the population is homosexual, why would that percentage not be prevalent amongst BKs?

If we are discussion the full spectrum of attitudes, what would the attitude of a high ranking lesbian Brahma Kumari towards male BKs?

And what facilities do they offer homosexuals? I mean, by their logic, shouldn't they have separate sleeping and washing accommodation? I was surprised how intimate some of the BK Sisters were.
--- --- ---
Yes, kmanaveen, I think that joke in such a serious topic, was a little "below the belt" ... made worse by your use of salacious capitals. If you are going to use such joke, then balance them with a serious point at the same time. I don't think it really rang true to the BK environment.
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enlightened

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post05 Jul 2013

ex-l wrote:I am sorry to be stupid here ... and I absolutely was made blind and stupid whilst in the BKs ... but are you talking about actually *sexual* relationships in Madhuban, or just emotional "holiday" type relationships?

Ex-I

From my personal traumatic experiences within the Brahma Kumaris organisation, anything is possible anywhere in the world ... at the end of the day, they are all human beings with imperfections and histories just like everyone else in the world ... your guess is as good as mine ... what's stopping anyone from having sexual relationships in Madhuban, what's stopping anyone from having emotional "holiday" type of relationships ... Madhuban niwasis have even got married to Kumars or Kumaris that used to come to Madhuban. It had to start from somewhere!!
That child sex or rapes could be being carried out and not noticed ... not even by their mothers when they came back ... is beyond my reasoning. But
    a) I absolutely believe it, and
    b) I could absolutely believe the mothers would be so disempowered they could not speak out or do anything about it.

As a child, my very first visit to Madhuban was with a male BK childrens' class teacher and 'NO PARENTS' were with any of us as far as I can remember. Likewise, many children/adolescents are sent to Madhuban on their own ... (that was at least my experience during the 25+ years of my involvement.

Not all parents are educated about these issues, particularly in cultures from the East, but also many parents in the West are not educated about these kind of issues ... many times, parents are too busy to even notice the childs change in behaviour.

BK parents are mostly living in a bubble of detachment to even love and care for their child never mind notice any changes in their behaviour or noticing any kind of molestation taking place.
I am differentiating the word "rape" as an sexual assault on an adult female here.

English language is not my great strength and so in my own words, I am referring to sexual assault as a child and adolescent and rape as an adult BK. My experience of rape or sexual assault or 'whatever you want to call it' as an adult in late twenties was in Europe by another BK. There was nothing to protect me or anyone during my involvement within the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University. There was no one watching out for any other BKs be it children, adolescents or adults ...
Now you are saying much more is going on ... of course, India itself is a problem. Child sex or rape is often treated lightly by the police, victims tend to be bought off and, at worst, married off to their abuser. And even raped again by them. It's a mess.

I don't believe rape is taken seriously in India along with child sex/abuse ... but I also don't believe that it was taken seriously in any part of the world in the past. I don't believe it is still taken that seriously in other Eastern or Western countries either as it's very difficult to prove these things ... especially when they happened in people's childhood or many years ago.

Look at the Jimmy Savilles case and all the other famous TV stars in the UK that are only just coming to the limelight ... with allegations of sexual assault etc.

The seriousness of these issues are only just coming to the limelight ... unfortunately, many people who go through these kind of traumas are unable to speak out when it actually happens because of fear, anxiety, guilt, shame etc ...

That is a WORLDWIDE ISSUE NOTJUST India.
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ex-l

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Re: The Wandering Eye

Post05 Jul 2013

Yes, and, yes, the current belated commitment to purging the past of pedophiles both famous and religious (Roman Catholic) is, I think, evidence of the United Kingdom and Europe is evolving further and showing more aware and concern over these issue but we're discussing Brahma Kumarism and the situation is many times worse in India.

In India, the police and judiciary respectively underdeveloped and overwhelmed, concepts of justice are different ... anything from pay offs to open mob lynchings, which are now rare in other nations. Issue of shame are still stronger and exploited.

The BKs are an Indian religion, their leaders and headquarters are in India, most of their males are Indian, and things are dealt with in an old school "Indian" way ... in my opinion (correct me if I am wrong).

I am not saying all of the West is perfect, but we have to look at all forms of sex within the BKs, from flirting to abuse, as happening in a mostly Indian context. For example, had there been a strong Western female leader in charge when the abuse cases came to light, wouldn't individuals would have been reported to the police and handed over?

Perhaps my failing was to expect a "Godly" institution to conduct its business in the highest possible ethical standards I would have expected "God" to have upheld, rather than just accept it did business like Hindis/Sindis did/do. We are talking here about an extension of old world cultural values into the BK movement.

For example, marital rape is still to this day not accepted as a criminal offence within Indian legal framework. Government officials argued that the contract of marriage presumes consent to sex and that criminalising marital rape in turn would weaken family values in India. Immediately, you can see how this reflects on some of the claims of Brahma Kumaris being treated badly by their non-BK husbands and conflicts between BKs and society.

Legally, in India, it is not a problem. A woman consents to marriage and receives the benefits of it, therefore she consent to marital sex (the law, not my own personal opinion ... however, I do think the BKs deeply disregard the moral and legal responsibilities of marriage).
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