Help me to fight Maya [BKs and Masturbation]

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kalam.bksite

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Help me to fight Maya [BKs and Masturbation]

Post06 Aug 2013

Hi everyone. I am a teenager aged 17 and I am going for Murli classes since 2 weeks from now. I do meditation throughout the day for about 2-3 for 15 minutes each. And through out the day I live in thoughts of Baba. But after getting up from sleep I have mostly negative and sexual thoughts going on in my mind. But for the past 2-3 days I am not able to control my sexual thoughts and I always end up masturbating. I know it comes under Kama(Sex-Lust) and I always regret. Sometimes I am able to fight Maya, but other times I feel overwhelmed by these thoughts and give in to masturbation. Please help me. Tell me how can I overcome these sexual thoughts and walk completely on Baba's path. :)

THANXX :)
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Mr Green

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post06 Aug 2013

Sexual thoughts are natural and positive, if it was not for sexual thoughts you would not be alive!

Use the other hand it feels like someone else!

All BKs masturbate, many have sex.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post07 Aug 2013

HI Kalam,

Remember that Dada Lekhraj was mature, retirement age, had already had several children and was already sexually diminishing (past it), biologically speaking when he chose brahmacharya - which is not uncommon in retirement age people - and expected everyone else to do the same.

Teenagers and young people are far more sexually alive. Hormonally things happen, regardless of " soul consciousness" or "body consciousness". Just as your stomach secretes juices for digestion without you having to consciously think of doing it, or a wound will scab over and heal naturally without you consciously controlling it, so too you're biologically primed for sexual activity. Genetically we are "hard-wired" to mentally discriminate shapes, to know instinctively the female form from the male.

Being realistic about it will help you 'control' it naturally to a socially acceptable degree. Appreciating beauty in others or things, without wanting to 'possess' it or ravish it, shows a civilised mature mind.

Repressing them (sexual feelings or attraction) is like shaving off your hair because you don't like its natural colour. Denying them is like denying your heart's pulse or the joy of running or playing a game. Feeling you are 'failing' is like blaming yourself for the fact you look like your parents or siblings.

Do not curse what is a gift. It will only damage you psychologically and emotionally, leave you feeling unable to relate to half the world's population, leave you prone to manipulation by others.

The patriarchal religions of the world have manipulated and abused natural sexuality to create guilt & shame, it allows them to exercise power and control over the followers and exploit them. But even most of these traditions have conditions for where sex is actually considered sanctified, holy, life affirming - usually within the framework of marriage. And by playing by their restricitons, one is further accepting their 'authority", then tends to project that on others .

Like fascists expect to be tolerated in a democracy (be voted to power by democracy but then want to ban democracy!) only the twisted see sexuality, sensuality and the natural world as a perversion (cursing the very thing that allows them to be).

The BKs' Gyan says this "should" be, that "should not" be - but ignores what "is". They have as their role models (examples) post-menopausal women and old men. They divert the energy of the young and virile toward doing things to promote the organisation, and call that "service".

Since 1930's they have discouraged people from having children because they have said the world will end within a few years. If that were definitely true, then that's good advice. But its now over 80 years and they still say the same. Many people have trusted in that, forsaken close relationships and family, and found themselves old and alone.

I wonder what were the inner thoughts of those who lived their whole lives, decade after decade after decade after decade, only to find themselves dying, aged 60, 70, 80, never knowing what it is to love fully in heart-body-mind as a whole human being. Or maybe they knew, had a love they sacrificed, an aspiration or dream to fulfill they gave up, a talent they never developed, believing Destruction/end of sangam yuga was only a matter of months or years?

As someone who was a BK for (too many) years, let me advise you to keep private that which is private. If you disclose it, it can be used against you. Many of those currently in positions of authority have transgressed sexual rules or have been psychologically distorted by their repression, and they can less compassionate than they should be as they project their guilt, or unconsciously seek to make others suffer as they do (but won't admit).

If you need to discuss sexuality you should speak to a doctor or counsellor. But you should be glad you are young, healthy, and vital. If you choose to have a girlfriend, or get married and have kids, and then years later you still want to be a full BK, they will still accept you (and your money). it will only show that the "imminent vinash" story was an gross exaggeration , as it has always been. At your age, 5 years or 10 years seems a long time. But once you have wasted the best years of your life, you cannot regain them, and they go past ever faster.
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ex-l

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post07 Aug 2013

I think the best first step to take *is* to make a discipline to stop masturbating ... but if that is too big a step, the best thing to do is make a deal with yourself *not* to masturbate yourself but wait until you can get *someone else* to do it for you, i.e. have a relationship with someone else. Swop, or trade with them. It's far better and more valuable to be in a relationship, live and learn from that, and share.

The problem with masturbating is that it is just too easy and leads to quick, self-centred gratification and a focus on the orgasm. When you start to have a real relationship you will come to quickly and, in essence, just be using the other person.

One thing the others don't mention is that as you are young you might just be using the sexual release as a way of "de-stressing", e.g. getting to sleep ... that it might just not be all sexual ... and rather than fighting it at "the effect" end, you might be better to look at the root cause.
    And one question, you speak about "lust" but what about "love"? Is it lust that you crave or love from another person?
What the BKs call "lust" is not just all about sex it includes many other quite natural desires, e.g. for comfort and affection, for friendship and so on. It's natural and curiosity at your age to explore those, your body and other people's bodies and whether you chose to have a normal life or whether you chose to become a BK later it is probably better to do so if you can (without getting anyone pregnant etc) and get it out of the way, otherwise it will become a great mystery and even more powerful at a later date.

Is that possible within your community and culture?

Bear in mind that much of what you have been told by the Brahma Kumaris is not true and has been misrepresented. They are looking to control you mentally and physically. What are they telling you? That the End of the World (Vinash) is coming? They have been telling people that for more than 75 years. Although they have become much richer and powerful, their predictions have always failed.

Don't by used by them. Speak to us and we can tell you more about their teachings and history.

kalam.bksite

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post07 Aug 2013

I think I am at the wrong place. Well, thanks for your replies. I hope Baba will show me the way :).
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ex-l

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post08 Aug 2013

Kalam,

Just avoid the BKs and you'll avoid a whole lot of nonsense generations of individuals have had their lives wasted with.

Nonsense they keep changing and manipulating to keep enculting individuals like you and ultimately exploit their sincere intentions.

newlife

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post09 Aug 2013

Mr Green wrote:Sexual thoughts are natural and positive, if it was not for sexual thoughts you would not be alive!

Use the other hand it feels like someone else!

All BKs masturbate, many have sex

Not against telling a few untruths yourself then mr. green or do you really believe that?

Referring to all BKs masturbating.
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Mr Green

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post09 Aug 2013

newlife wrote:referring to all BKs masturbating

Maybe that is untrue.

But, come on, why help the poor guy stay in misery?

I know and am now saying that some very senior members masturbate.

Anatta

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post09 Aug 2013

Masturbation is a good thing actually for releasing your tension and for your body as well. The semen in your body needs to be replenished by replacing them (through masturbation), otherwise the cells start to decay, and has a very, very high chance of causing you prostate cancer. Masturbation also helps in resetting (readjusting) your heart rate from time to time (common for both boys and girls), further it helps in normal growth of your body. In girls, it helps in regulating a healthy period as well. The idea is not to overdo it. While it may not cause any harm to your body but you will just waste your time doing just one thing. Further more, that is how all life originates, sexual thoughts and desires, which is not wrong and which is what we are.

Don't ever feel guilty about and accept it and enjoy every moment of it and you will see, you will still be masturbating but definitely not over doing it.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post10 Aug 2013

Look. Everyone picks their nose when it's dry and clogged or scratches their arse when it's itchy. But in our society it is regarded as unacceptable to do it in public. Masturbation is the same. Primates on the other hand (!) keep themselves and zoo visitors entertained quite unselfconsciously. Dogs lick what they can because they can! But many humans think they invented it!

You can be sure the pope (speaking of primates :D ) and the queen have scratched and picked and fiddled when they felt the need and had the "opportunity". They probably even fart sometimes. No-one cares if you do it in private. People just don't need to know about it, nor want to, unless they live through others.

But as soon as you feel the need to "confess", well, it's like confessing to desiring chocolate or some other thing. They feel obliged to admonish you and give suggestions etc. Why is that?

Because, in the telling, you are saying to them that "it" (whatever 'it' is) makes you feel bad about yourself. So you are "asking for it", asking for admonishment, for suggestions. What else would they do? (Few are wise enough or humble enough to say, go away, this is not any real problem to concern yourself or me with).

If you are happy and self-assured, if you don't do anything to excess that harms you or affects others badly, who cares?

If its excessive or debilitating you have to see it as a symptom of some other, more real, problem.

It's unnecessary and patronising to make others feel unworthy or diminished for doing something that humans have done ever since there were humans, and that all primates and many mammals do. There are far worse things in life than a creature "minding his own business" and enjoying a simple sensation. One of them is making people feel guilty over the wrong things as a distraction from their own more serious 'sins'.
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ex-l

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Re: Help me to fight Maya (BKs and Masturbation)

Post10 Aug 2013

What is it that the BKs are really doing, or really fear, regarding sex?

I understand they say (approximately) it is because any sensual experience pulls the soul down from experiencing "soul consciousness" and psychic influences from their god spirit because that sex is the most sensual or body conscious experience.

Is it the orgasm ... the post-orgasm malaise ... the drain on resources accidental pregnancies would bring to the cult's finances and labor reserves ... the binding of individuals to one another denying the cult's top down control of them ... the chaos of lusts, jealousies and envies sexual liberation would bring to the largely feudal and patriarchal Indian mentality as they experienced during the Om Mandli days ... or a mere conformity with the expected norm of a religiosity within India?

Is their path really the supreme path for all people's at all times and in all places? Or it is not locked back in those days?
Mr Green wrote:All BKs masturbate, many have sex.
newlife wrote:Referring to all BKs masturbating ... do you really believe that?

Yes, I thought that was wrong particularly because of the high proportion of women, Indian women and older Indian women in the cult.

Perhaps Mr Green was referring to his peer group within the BKWSU, e.g. younger Western male BKs?

I quickly looked into what statistics exists for this subject and the best one I found was the apocryphal "99% of all males masturbate and 1% lie about it". Incidentally, it appears that zero such statistics exist about Indian females, I suspect because of the still highly taboo nature of the subject. Most statistics underline that they refer to individuals who "admit to masturbating" rather than "do masturbate" and so whilst sex on the whole in India is serious ******* up, even within Post-Christian societies there appears to be shame still attached to the activity.

One interesting study did link it to teenage depression and other addictive abuses which I would underline, however, some studies suggest that as many as 95 percent of men and 89 percent of women masturbate and so Mr Green may not be far off the truth in some corners, but I would never expect to get the truth from the BKs about it.

More modest but detailed statistics show that individuals continue to masturbate into their 70s and so do approx 70% of marriage individuals. It's not just a male thing either, another study showed that 7% to 10% of females do it every other day and started aged 14 or 15, 60% "admitted" to doing it regularly. They also peak later, with women reaching their climax most in their 30s.
Pink Panther wrote:Look. Everyone picks their nose when it's dry and clogged or scratches their arse when it's itchy. But in our society it is regarded as unacceptable to do it in public. Masturbation is the same.

Jeez, well, I am glad you clarified that deep and subtle point for me, Bhai! I wondered what I had been doing wrong all these years ... :shock:.

Can you define "public"? Are you conferring that all open air sex is bad, wrong or evil; or does it depend on some unwritten codes of consensuality depending on social context, and the human density of said public spaces?

And, seeing that you bring up zoophilia, it's worth remember that our nearest social and genetic relatives are not chimpanzees (who have a tendency towards violence), but bonobos who are highly sexed and use sexuality as a means of maintaining social order. What Dr Christopher Ryan, author of "Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality" found was, "more sex equal less conflict".

This is interesting because it completely opposes the equation the Brahma Kumaris now use, borrowed from element of Hindu Brahmanism, which is "lust begets anger, hatred etc". Their vision, based sadly on the experience of Indian women I am afraid, appears to bind sex with violence rather than love, friendship and affection.

The Brahma Kumaris also equate sex with degradation, whereas the psychologists note that "all the casual sex among bonobos is arguably a big part of what has made them among the smartest of all primates" and that all of the smartest mammals, e.g. humans, chimps, bonobos, and dolphins etc, are promiscuous. This correlated with other research that proves orgasm stimulate and oxygenate brains, and it might be worth looking at the effect of cortisol (fear, stress) and oxytocin (love, pair-bonding etc)

I have also to point out that in the early days the movement had a far more liberal attitude towards at least sensual interaction between the sexes (especially if it involved Lekhraj Kirpalani).

A leading primatologist wrote, "chimps use violence to get sex, while bonobos use sex to avoid violence", to which I might respond, "... whereas the Brahma Kumaris use absolutely celibacy to divide and rule others". Only we need a better word than just "celibacy" because their division of human beings goes far further than just no sex with others. It involves a division between the mind and body of individuals (no sex with yourself, a denial of sexual thoughts) and includes no natural affection too ... which I think must be even more debilitating.

However, that ... the subject of Brahma Kumaris and simple touch ... is worth discussion separating because it also varies culturally across the movement, e.g. in "the West" Sisters tend to touch more and have even, latterly, got into highly sensual and loving full body massages etc; whereas in India Brother might be far more likely to be affection towards other Brothers, e.g. hand holding or walking embraces, in a way that would make Western males feel very uncomfortable or strictly gay.

Physicality within the BKWSU also varies from the North, e.g. puritanic England, to the South, e.g. "lax" Australia where BKs, in my time, tended to enjoy nature and their bodies a bit more.
There are far worse things in life than a creature "minding his own business" and enjoying a simple sensation. One of them is making people feel guilty over the wrong things as a distraction from their own more serious 'sins'.

Going back to the beginning of this discussion, from a BK point of view, doing something creates a sanskar which leads to doing more of it. A fair observation from the point of view of sexual addiction. How to stop it is to just to stop doing it and create a different sanskar ... and do more of their meditation (the only "one size fits all" cure they have).

I can remember 'confessed' masturbators being punished by not being allowed to go to Madhuban. I am absolutely sure 'non-confessed' masturbators said nothing and just went to Madhuban.

I cannot, however, ever remember it being openly discussed nor any remedies suggested although I do remember some of the idiotic Jagdish Chander's pseudo-Victorian writings on the subject of sex and consider Janki Kirpalani's exhortations of "total purity" for young girls irresponsible.

I suppose putting a big poster of Dadi Janki or Sister Gulzar at the end of one's bed would be enough to douse the flames of passion of any young man. If not, ask another Brother to handcuff your wrists to the bed at night!?!

Either way, I return to where I started and would have to ask the question why is the individual doing it? It is is just to "de-stress", then it would be better to remove the stress that is causing it and avoid making a habit of it. Far better to love someone else and be loved back than to narcissistically "love" the self.

If it is not stress which is causing it, then may be it signifies a lack of love and affection from others?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Help me to fight Maya (BKs and Masturbation)

Post10 Aug 2013

ex-l wrote:Jeez, well, I am glad you clarified that deep and subtle point for me, Bhai! I wondered what I had been doing wrong all these years ... :shock:.

Can you define "public"? Are you conferring that all open air sex is bad, wrong or evil; or does it depend on some unwritten codes of consensuality depending on social context, and the human density of said public spaces?

Confucius says, "Man with hands in pockets is always on the ball".

All I am saying is it is socially unacceptable but then again a lot of very normal things are, eg nudity. I make no statement about what should be. But then again there are some BKs (and some others) who never get naked in front of anyone else, even of their own sex in, for example, a swimming pool change room. Some even in front of spouses.

Anything done too little or too much is, by definition, harmful. If no harm done, then no excess.
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ex-l

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Re: Help me to fight Maya

Post10 Aug 2013

It's interesting how the original poster saw the problem as masturbation and not a nature curiosity and attraction to the opposite sex. What was it that was turning him on? Is a large part of himself telling him that he should get the hell out of the BKWSU and go follow his own instincts and is he cutting that part of himself off? What will that lead to?

As we've shown time and time again, the BKs' promises, and their god spirit's predictions, are not worth anything. So far it's all just a wild goose chase whose only benefit is to keep the old virgin crones in new saris, fed and well housed.
Anatta wrote:The semen in your body needs to be replenished by replacing them (through masturbation), otherwise the cells start to decay, and has a very, very high chance of causing you prostate cancer.

I have to say, this sounds like it is very unscientific and more bound to archaic esoteric ideas, e.g. prana in India or chi in China. I am not saying that there is not some truth to the idea of such sexual energy, only we should be clear, honest and as accurate about our ideas as possible.

The body will take of itself and does not "need a hand". However, that might lead us to discussing wet dreams with the Brahma Kumaris. I am specifically remember Janki Kirpalani and their god's mass ordering of young teenage girls to monitor even their dreams for any sexual or emotional attractions ... what are they expecting? That individuals remain conscious and in control even during their sleeping hours?!? Is that possible?
There is no biological need to have sex or masturbate for health reasons. The body can easily cope with unused sperm, with no impact on fertility or sex drive. Unused semen gets reabsorbed if it isn’t used, such as the situation where a man has had a vasectomy -- the sperm just go back where they came from and get converted back into their constituents and reused.

One other aspect to this discussion that I would like to introduce is that we are not just talking about sexual urges here but libido or libidinal energy, the idea of unconscious driving force in life.

This is important because encouraging a battle against an unbeatable enemy is a great way of control a following who will always be "failing", and to keep the business of the religion going forever and a way to manipulate constantly "failing" adherents.

There is a large amount of good quality research going on about both the biology and psychology of sex and I encourage individuals to read some of it.

It's real knowledge about how to be human.

It would also be good if the BKs actually studied the nature of brain at different ages, e.g. childhood, adolescent and adult versus dopamine, prolactin and DeltaFosB levels etc, and got some understanding of it rather than impress their "one size fits all cure" and expected it to work.

Does "soul consciousness" really over power such power brain chemicals ... and what of the difference between individuals with different levels/tolerances of them?
When dopamine drops after orgasm, it falls below ideal levels, and can change our whole outlook on life. Low dopamine is associated with depression, feeling unable to love, and, again, addictions, as sufferers desperately seek to feel better.

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