Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK truth

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Luckysmiler

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Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK truth

Post22 Dec 2013

Hi all,

Apologies if this is not the correct place to ask this question.

I have heard about many experiences from people who have had visions of Brahma Baba and Shiv Baba prior to coming into Gyan. In fact there are posts on this website too. Does this not lend support to there being a truth present in The Knowledge? Would be interested to know your thoughts!

Many thanks!
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Pink Panther

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Re: Vision of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lending support truth

Post22 Dec 2013

Hi Luckysmiler,

There is ”a” truth in everything potentially. I don't want to conjecture about the paranormal ”mechanisms" of your topic - they are infinitely variable, unprovable & undisprovable - so they are moot.

The seemingly anticipatory events & experiences one has before a new chapter appears in one's life can be looked at and understood in many different ways. It’s like the cliche’d phrase people use ”there’s a reason this is happening/ that happened” i.e. reasons are what we come up with and we give to them.

The implication of this phrase is that an event or an experience is ”neutral” but it’s up to us whether it becomes enhanced, meaningful, meaningless or depreciated by what we invest into it or strip from it. Any little thing can be a catalyst for insight, which means every thing can be, but nothing actually is, until we project some insight.

In Buddhist terms, there’s the seen, the seer and the seeing - a tripartite relationship where all parts are involved in the phenomenon. Did the seen event ”give" insight? Why does one person gain insight from it and not the other?

This phrase is really saying that an event is-what-it-is, it can ”mean” anything according to what we bring to it, so it can be "a truth" or a ”predictor" or a ”symptom" of readiness to a new way of being, an ”opening" to the next phase, or even ”inviting" the next phase, a ”ripening" , a ”quickening”, a synchronous occurrence ...

You may say, ”but people have visions of BB or Shiva Baba, these specific visions are indicating there’s some truth
'' - well, let’s look at it in two ways.

    1.There are many recorded cases of people ”seeing” or dreaming of a plane crash or a car accident in great detail, and then it happens as seen. The predictive mechanism is fascinating, not understood and hard to explain. the event turned out as seen. Does that make it ”a" truth, or ”the" truth? Someone says they see BB or Shiva Baba in a vision, then go to a BK centre and see the image. So, they got a glimpse into a next scene, so what?... is it different to the envisioning of the car accident? It’s wondrous enough but to invest more than that is subjective, a kind of wish-fulfillment.

    2. The images in visions, or concepts, tend to be iconic, archetypical. One attractive aspect of BB’s visage is his almost archetypal father-figure (he could be many people’s grandfather, indeed my first reaction when I saw his photo was how much he looked like my paternal grandfather).
The point form and the Shiva imagery, radiating lines and concentric rings is typical of mandalas, symmetrical design, sunrise, traditional motifs everywhere etc ... and so much more. See
“In view of the fact that all mandalas shown here {painted by patients] were new and uninfluenced products, we are driven to the conclusion that there must be a transconscious disposition in every individual which is able to produce the same or very similar symbols at all times and in all places. Since this disposition is usually not a conscious possession of the individual I have called it the collective unconscious.” - Mandala Symbolism, C G Jung Page 100

Dad Lekhraj’s early infatuation with drawing circles and The Cycle of time is almost pathologically normal, if you get what I mean, the circle is used in many traditions as a symbol,from natural cycles right up to the simple image for zero " 0 ” and it’s inevitable symbiotic relationship with 1 and the ” . ” or iota (which actually refers to the dot above the i in the greek letter of that name) e.g. how many zeroes does it take to not change a light bulb? Just one.

You may be interested to research the field of semiotics & symbols generally, archetypal psychology specifically, or even evolutionary psychology?

curious soul

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post22 Dec 2013

Thanks Pink Panther,

Your thoughts are quite insightful.

I, personally, haven't had any such visions so cannot really add much authority to this discussion but if there is anybody who has, it would be very interesting to have some deeper understanding from their perspective too.

Thanks again!
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ex-l

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post23 Dec 2013

There was an ex-BK who used to post here a while ago called Howiemac who had numerous visions before and after doing the BK course and although they had left the path, still saw Lekhraj Kirpalani/BapDada as their spiritual guide. If you search for their earlier posts, you might find them.

There is a long way between having some kind of vision and accepting the total belief system of the BKs, let alone accepting the present day social order (leadership) within the BK movement.

Personally, I can believe people do have visions of Lekhraj Kirpalani, and others they say are Shiva Baba but, strictly speaking, there is a problem with that from The Knowledge. In the Murlis, it is said that visions are of no value and mean little and you cannot "see" a soul or even Supreme Soul. They are, the Murlis say, "fruit of the individual's devotional efforts (Bhakti)" and reflect the nature of the individual's devotions, e.g. Christians would have vision of Christ, Buddhists visions of Kuan Yin.

From a skeptical point of view, one would have to put up a filter all the meaningless things they might be, e.g. retro-spective re-interpretation on the basis of later BK knowledge. For example, as a child I have a nightmare-ish vision which remains with me to this day of an old man's face who looked very much like Lekhraj Kirpalani. I remember seeing some smooth, golden-like, attractive surface; but when I touched it, it was all hard, rough and unappealing. I was very disturbed by it. Initially attracted, but repelled by its unpleasant reality.

Now, decades later and post-BK I might put a negative interpretation on that to suit my current critical position, just as a BK might put a positive interpretation on one they had ... but probably it was just nothing, or something I'd seen on the TV or some other rational explanation.

I think Howiemac believed that Lekhraj Kirpalani/BapDada was a more spiritual developed human being, an "ascended master". Many people have such beliefs and some groups have very well developed frameworks fitting them into various levels. I know of one school that even puts Lekhraj Kirpalani in their list of ascended masters at "Level 3".

If you accept such spiritual and psychic realms and hierarchies as real ... then it makes sense and is logical. It's reasonable to suggest Lekhraj Kirpalani was a more accomplished human being and had some some kind of spiritual awakening. He was to the extent he was a highly successful business and very probably good at all the social politics required to become so.

There is also his meeting with the Bengali Saddhu to whom he paid a huge sum to learn some kind of siddhi or psychic power ... but, again, even accepting all that (which I do not reject) it is a very long jump to then say, "everything the Brahma Kumaris tell us must be true". Especially when, a) it is not, and b) their morals, ethics and explanations of the world are so lacking.

Therefore ... it's possible that there is some kind of weird and wonderful psychicisms going on within the Brahma Kumaris. I actually think there is. I, too, know people, and gave the course to individuals, who had very strong weird and wonderful visions of all sorts of things from monkey gods to Mother Marys, and glimpses of heaven (... although I have no idea how!).

However, at that time, our "truth" as BKs ... the "BK truth" all of those vision encouraged ... included the world being destroyed by 1986, Krishna being re-born by now and heaven on its way to being re-built (50 years for Destruction, 50 years for Creation is what the Murlis said).

Earlier "truths" such visions encouraged included, the world being destroyed in 1976 ... 1950 ... WWII .. various people becoming gods who have since left and had families, and so on.

My point?

Those vision may well be real to the point that, yes, people have visions ... (they do) but they are absolutely unreliable and meaningless or valueless, and wide open to be abused to sustain an absolutely false set of beliefs and a corrupt hierarchy of individuals living off the religions.

If you have such visions ... take a second opinion on what they mean from someone is who is *not* living off BK movement because the ones who are living off the BK movement are likely to tell you something that keeps you supporting their lunch ticket and living expenses.

What do you think of people from other religions who have differing visions? Are they and their gods wrong and less?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post24 Dec 2013

I have shared elsewhere on forum, here I’ll relate one very small part of my personal experience that is topical.

Before encountering the BKs , in the shower I used to sit in siddhasana under the plentiful hot streaming water, imagining myself a yogi living in a cave. My skull became the mountain, my eyes the opening of the cave, the shower water was rain falling outside the cave, it was now the mountains during monsoon, now the tropical jungle of south India - this self-created fantasy was real and ”intoxicating. I wasted hundreds of litres!!

In context, I had been doing some reading and doing hatha Yoga, was full of the new romance the West had about the eastern spirituality, and was entering a new direction in my life.

The BKs were local, I encountered them, I became one of them. (A friend of mine did Transcendental Meditation ™ and joined them for a while.) At the time I took my visions etc as signs I was on the right path (and my friend wasn’t) . When walking along the archetypal mountain top (seen in another ”vision") was actualised by a visit to Mt Abu soon after, I was sure it was ”clairvoyance” or a kind of deja vu or seeing through the illusion of Time (which allowed The Cycle of time to fit into the scheme of things).

I was, essentially, full of myself, a young adult looking and finding an ego that romantically, idealistically suited him at the time. As long as I fed that ego (which BKs train one to do well - and I did for many years, it’s indeed the most golden of cages) , I was high. It lasted many years. My born-again arrogance hurt a lot of loved ones at the time.

Some of those fronted me to criticise what I was doing with my life. I cut them off. Sure enough, it is these people who’ve always been there for me when I needed real support. (That’s not to disregard some fine individuals within the BKs who also were true friends at times. Most were however, what is termed fair-weather or ”erstwhile” friends).

I think most readers are intelligent enough to see that my ”visions” ( this was but one of many) could have been understood in a number of ways.

When thinking that something is because of a particular reason, one should ask, ”is there other ways this can be understood that are also just as likely?” When there is, we usually go with the one that serves our ego-need at the time, it is the one we choose to be true. Life brings many lessons.

ex.brahma

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post24 Dec 2013

I believe the so called "Vision", in spiritual terms, may be the produce of one of the following :

Self Hypnosis ... psychopathy disorder ... or unexplained paranormal phenomena.

Meditation is a form of self-hypnosis, where imagination and fantasy have no limits.

Psychopathy disorder is another form, which could produce "invented vision". In his famous book, "The Mask Of Sanity", Dr Harvey Clerckley used the "Mask" to refer to the tendency of psychopaths to appear confident, personable and well adjusted.

Psychopathy symptoms checklist, under "Interpersonal" includes, superficial charm, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative, as well as other factors, which perfectly fit the history of the founder of BK cult, Mr Lekhraj Kirpalani.

The unexplained paranormal vision, which is usually translated into futuristic physical happening, matching with the vision details, also exists.

I was a witness to one of them, which I posted earlier in this forum, under the title, "The Vision" ...!!
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Pink Panther

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post24 Dec 2013

Meditation is a form of self-hypnosis, where imagination and fantasy have no limits.
Meditation is a broad term.

Certain types of meditation can be what you say, those that are concerned with separation, detachment, ”transcendence", disengagement from the here and now.

There are meditations and other ”attitudes” of mind which actually engage one more fully with life here and now, make one more present rather than less.

The term vision is also quite broad if one cares to interrogate it. A carpenter will have a vision of the product he is building and consciously goes about realising it. A person can unconsciously envision which way their life is heading or a situation that’s likely to arise if things proceed as they are, then, lo and behold, are amazed when it turns out that way!

The human mind has great ability for inference, and our primary mental medium is image.
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ex-l

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post24 Dec 2013

I think I separate visions from visualisations, imaginations and dreams for the purpose of this discussion.

The type of visions I, and I think the original poster are taking about are beyond the will and intention of the person having them and are quite outstanding. When I taught the BK course, people would have powerful visions and experiences and sure as hell I was not giving them ... I did not know how. Nor, to me, does simple hypnosis answer it either ... as I did not know how. But they were happening. Rational explanation fails.

Yes, mad people, people under a lot of stress, drug or even bacterial influences can also provoke "visualisations" and even "visions" ... but I think we need to leave a door open to the possibility of spiritual visions that are beyond all that.

Visions have been a part of basically all spiritual traditions for all time ... except for those you refer to which would basically see them as Maya or psychic discharges ... however, they were learnt not to been taking on face value. Satan, for example, comes in the form of an angel of light. The BKs encourage individuals to accept often quite false and imagined face values ... more Maya.
ex.Brahma wrote:I was a witness to one of them, which I posted earlier in this forum, under the title, "The Vision" ...!!

I am glad that the vision you referred to was both "truth" and "false", although I am sorry for the genuinely tragic results of it. It underlines my position which is that psychisms are 'real' in that they do happen ... but that the only thing reliable about them is that they are unreliable.

Why, if there was a god and he was good, would he give a message and then allow 100s or 1000s to suffer? Why, if the god spirit of the BKs was the "Ocean of Knowledge" and absolutely benign, would he make predictions which failed time and time again and lead people to madnesses? Of course, the BK rush to defend their god and habitually blame their founder Lekhraj Kirpalani or other BKs for the errors ... but this is not true.

Therefore, one should not be distracted by them and invest faith based on them, but look to other aspects to understand the nature of their god spirit and religion.

For example, the rational answer accepting the spiritualism of the BKs might be that, yes, their god spirits can give visions but that the purpose of those visions are to deceive vulnerable individuals and exploit them, and to keep deceiving and exploiting them for as long as possible. And that certain types deceive themselves.

I used to have visions of point of light. Very strong ones. We would deceived ourselves that they were of some importance, that Baba or some Dadi was visiting us. I would reject that they were just things floating in my eye or my retina detaching because I have also seen them and the two are different.

I have friends who are not BKs and never will be who have had complex powerful and life changing visions of Angels ... and those Angels were certainly not BKs. I had a friend who was a Buddhist monk who had an extremely power vision/experience of being out of their body and in some Paramdham like world ... but the details were completely different to what the BKs teach. Whose vision is the truest?

I think you touched upon something in your mention of grandiose, self-centred psychopathy (mental illness) of Lekhraj Kirpalani. With the BKs, everything comes back to them ... or their shop ... their shop is the best, their product is supreme, their boss is the greatest; it's all them, them, them,

So what about Swedenborg and the vision of Angels taking him to many worlds, heavens and hells he had?

What about the many mystics who had many vision of many other angels in many others worlds and many other realities? You cannot claim that the god spirit of the BKs invented and gave all of them!!!

Of course, the megalomaniacal BKs do ...
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Pink Panther

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post25 Dec 2013

ex-l, Not wanting to detract from your post in any way, but I think your opening line mistakes what I was intending in my previous post, and proceeds to talk about visions generally rather than predictive ones.

You wrote
ex-l wrote:I think I separate visions from visualisations, imaginations and dreams for the purpose of this discussion.

I agree that these generally are separate terms.

Visions which are had during an intentional mind-altering practice (be it meditation, drugs, hypnosis, auto-suggestion, hyper-ventilation, whatever) - is a huge topic in itself.

This topic is about visions people had - of Shiva Baba & BB - before encountering the BKs. That is, the aspect of foresight, prediction, prophetic seeing, precognition of a face, person, place that then (they say) eventuates.

My line (that I think prompted your opening sentence) was
A carpenter will have a vision of the product he is building and goes about realising it consciously.

A person can unconsciously envision which way their life is heading or a situation that’s yet to arise if things proceed as they are, then, lo and behold, are amazed when it turns out that way!

Here I differentiated conscious and unconscious forms of visioning "ahead of time". The unconscious ones can be had in, daydreaming, dreams, reverie, meditation, vagueing out, triggered by some catalyst (eg smell or sensory incongruity ...)

I believe we are both pointing out different positions of this phenomenon on a broad spectrum or axis.

Even in everyday, life we mistake things we see, sometimes they are corrected, e.g. as we get closer to something, sometimes, what we (think we) see reflects our psychological bias (e.g. life is a Rorschach test !).

Foresight (in the usual sense) is a kind of precognition. Some people do ”see” what’s about to happen better than others. How "spooky" that is considered is dependant on how pronounced that foresight is - how far forward, how specific, how different to what others’ assumed. Personally, we often bury/ignore signals that our "animal instincts" are picking up - which may emerge as a vision of an eventuality - and we wonder where that came from.

Psychics (ones that are not outright frauds) seem to have some intuitive skill to attune to another’s inner self-knowledge that the other person themselves are out of touch with, and piece together much which may turn out quite precisely. (Much of it is reading body language, expression, putting together clues from age, clothing, concerns, etc).

Likely in days past, some may’ve been burnt as witches or sorcerers! These days I think we should burn all those politicians who lack basic common sense foresight!

In this subject of ”precognising” Shiva Baba & BB, we've also mentioned the aspect of psychological priming/ripening and linked to archetypal functioning - which you also refer to.

For spiritually concerned people, archetypal images such as light (whether a point, candle flame, rays radiating, concentric rings etc), or of a father-figure, are far more likely to be ”prophetically seen” than this same person, for example, ”seeing” a late night car crash involving a red sports car, bus and girlfriend in miniskirt and stilettos lying on wet ground with reflected neon lights flashing* (... Unless the spiritually inclined person owned a red sports car or had such a girlfriend and liked catching late buses to go nightclubbing. A ”prophetic” daydream that came true that I've read about).

Slightly on a tangent, I wonder how many events previously had their own ”predictive vision/flash of foresight” which was forgotten or never consciously remembered , or even predictive visions that were had but which (for whatever cosmic or mundane reason) never eventuated and are ignored? What if we imagine/get a vision of a violent attack in a dark street we normally walk down, so we don’t go there for a long while? How can we know whether we avoided something pre-cognitively?

So, without getting off-track here, I was indicating that the lines separating mundane ”foresight”, inference, prediction and precognition is blurry. So, too, the lines between ”vision”, projection, what is current or past or future, innocent but subjective interpretation in hindsight (like a false memory of the memory) and so on.

There is an aspect also to be explored, what Drs. Pauli and Jung together named ”synchronicity”; two separate events linked only by meaning (usually understood by most to mean "occurring coincidentally" but they need not be).

In this case, one event is the original ”vision”, the other is the encounter in the BK centre with the same imagery. The meaning is likely added, injected, invested after the second encounter. Another personality type might just say ”that's curious, I saw that exact same face two weeks ago while daydreaming on the bus” and not think it more significant than a "time anomaly”, or deja vu.

If someone feels it ”significant” at the same time of having a vision - of a radiating point of light or a spiritual Father -figure - and from it is inspired to investigate so goes to some (not BK) group or spiritual ”centre” to learn, and invariably finds similar images there (patriarchs, radiant flame or light etc), that can ”coalesce” their memory and their belief in the significance of the vision.

In summary, I am not dismissing anyone’s visions, feelings, insights as false. Had many of my own and know of others but don't want to bore people. Every experience is subjectively true, and subjectively significant or insignificant.

I am only saying there is very, very much complexity upon complexity.
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ex-l

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post25 Dec 2013

Pink Panther wrote:This topic is about visions people had - of Shiva Baba & BB - before encountering the BKs. That is, the aspect of foresight, prediction, prophetic seeing, precognition of a face, person, place that then (they say) eventuates.

OK, to put it simply, you're talking about premonitions? I think you make a good point about re-interpreting common archetypal images, e.g. spiritual Father figures, points of lights and so on. No, I was thinking of your experience in the shower.

Perhaps if the BK supporter has not fallen asleep or run off *they* might clarify what they mean?

I remembered also a "vision" I was sure I had as a new BK ... it was "very powerful", as BK would say. It was of a "Destruction" scene where I was then living in full technicolor realism. It confirmed my faith that BKism must be true and encouraged me on. I was sure it was true and the future ... only problem is, Destruction never happened in 1986, there was no breakdown of society beforehand like they said, and I live 100s of miles away and will never return there.

The vision was completely false. As you say, how many false visions do we filter out and forget because they don't confirm what we want now?

I guess some spiritual paths in India has sat down and categorised all the different types of visionary experiences ... I don't know of it, but it sounds like the sort of things the Buddhist would have done. They like lists and numbers of things.

I have no idea how premonitions, or seeing into the future works. It suggests that either the future already exists, rolling out in front of us like a conveyor belt, or that our brains/souls are able to calculate all the conspiring permutations of life and predict likely future events based upon them.

Again, from experience, most of it is highly unreliable, especially those from psychics. Into the mix, you might also throw seeing/feeling at a distance.

But all this is very complicated and inconclusive and, most critically, gives no joy or sense of self-importance ... and so I can see why the original poster and their friends would far rather just have the simple belief of "It's a sign" and collect them as we used to collect pictures of gods or saints when we were kids.

What's a premonition of a god or god man who has very false premonitions themselves worth? A true premonition of a false god man? (Remember, Lekhraj Kirpalani thought he *was* god between about 1932 until 1956 - there was no god Shiva in the religion until after then and "saw" the End of the World happening in WWII, 1950, 1976, 1986 - 1996. Even "saw in divine vision" that he and the Om Mandli were the cause of WWII.

What recommendation is that?

ex.brahma

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post25 Dec 2013

If certain Vision is not a predictive one, with eventual matching details, then how could it be distinquished and separated from, a day dream, night dream or even a nightmare ..?!

Luckysmiler

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post25 Dec 2013

Dear All,

Merry Christmas to you!

Just to clarify I posted my original question out of genuine curiosity not because i am a BK supporter or dissenter for that matter. On any spiritual quest, i have always held a neutral position until i am convinced through my own experiences or something feels right but i do my research first and i thought that this forum was a good place to get a balance of perspectives but the assumptions made about me and the hints of sarcasm towards me by ex-i made me laugh! :D

One thing i have learnt is that there are virtues and goodness to be found in anything in life and there are also negatives but what do i choose to focus on? Nobody is perfect hence any institutions us imperfect human beings are affiliated to are also not perfect. I personally don't enjoy giving myself labels, especially ones that mean i am prescribed to any spiritual group because honestly speaking i am open to anything and i cannot even say that i have any authority whatsoever on preaching or providing insights into anything spiritual hence my interest in asking my original question about visions. I really enjoyed reading about everyone's views, i just don't agree with some of the sarcasm and snide comments that enter but that's my problem!

Something else i have learnt is that there are 2 sides to everything and that both sides have valid points but conclusions about what is and is not valid depends on what the individual is seeking at that time. If i have had bad experiences with an organization, i would probably leave when it no longer serves me and fight against it e.g. this website, similarly i could seek the support of an organisation because i have had a tough life and whether the philosophy of the organization is truth or based on lies won't make a difference to me, all i am concerned about is the love and peace and sense of purpose i feel. I could also be a part of a group because it genuinely has brought me closer to God and/my truth. The point i am trying to make is why do we judge? We need to ask ourselves this question.

Some of the posts on this website are not in good faith and are bitter. Please don't think i am trying to patronize anyone, i have no idea what u guys have gone through but why cannot there be healthy and peaceful communications? Why all the criticism? If there are truths to be revealed, that's excellent and the reason why i joined this site was to find out more and i have learnt a lot but why the negativity? I had no intention to say all this but i was a bit surprised by the sarcasm especially since my question had no hidden agenda or ulterior motives!

With regards to the BKs, i am a newby in comparison to u guys so don't have much experience of the organisation but i can confidently say that i question EVERYTHING, it's a bit of a curse because life gets a bit complicated but it's just how i am especially where it concerns any matters related to religion, spirituality, God etc. Please also note that i do not see myself as a BK and do have questions about aspects of the philosophy that do not make much sense to me but in saying that i am open to accepting it all or rejecting it completely or even cherry picking the bits i like and rejecting everything else, that's just my way of seeking. I have observed things about the organization and do have questions but the other things i have observed and experienced have been beautiful. Now i like seeing the glass as half full and actively choose to discuss positive things and i think it will start to bring a much needed balance to this website which provides and awesome forum to have open discussions!!

Despite some of the things i have read on here and heard about regarding the Seniors, Dadi Janki is one of the most powerful energies i have been in the presence of. She calls herself a student and is not ordinary to me. Sister Jayanti is a loving and kind energy. These are my experiences and my opinion could change but i am happy that i will have these experiences to cherish even if i did experience something on the contrary. My life experiences and how i feel is up to me. I believe that if i see negativity in anything, i have probably got some things i need to work on. People can do as they please, BKs or no BKs but what i choose to take from any life situation or the people i come across is my choice.

I have gone off topic guys, so sorry but i hope u keep this post up. I truly have nothing against u and i have really been enchanted by the responses from this post, plenty of food for thought so thank u!!

Best wishes!
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ex-l

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post25 Dec 2013

Luckysmiler wrote:the hints of sarcasm towards me by ex-i made me laugh! :D

Where was I sarcastic towards you? The only time I mentioned you was suggesting that we may have put you to sleep with the lengths of our replies.

If anything I was being sarcastic towards Pink Panther and myself.

You see, you come on here steeped in fuzzy, neo-BKisms about "only seeing the positive" etc, and then you ignore all the painstaking consideration of our answers to imagine and focus on some ... negativity. And not mentioned anything about topic or shown any respect for the answers.

is not that a bit paradoxical?

Personally, I find the hard light of truth and accuracy to be very positive, and falsehood and the manipulation of facts and individuals highly negative.

I suppose from a BK point view, you'd be categorised as a devotee soul of Kirpalani Klan then, one of the "servants" they gone off to create according to the Murlis. Do you know what a Murli is yet? Or are they sucking you via one of their fronts like the Values Education or Janki Foundation?

How much of an involvement with the BKs do you have? Yup, folk here have know then since the entire Western world of BKs fitted in one room and have had a whole lot of experience with them.

Unfortunately, what Janki says is not worth very much around there. She's spent decades hiding the truth and manipulating individuals for the sake of money, altering the religion against its teachings, and allowing others to fabricate and exaggerate on her behalf. She was central to covering up the child sex abuse and historical revision, and commercialising. I don't find any of that particularly divine.

You might go on to ask why then, if Janki did so many wrongs, does she appear to be so charismatic to some individuals? And that's also good question to ask. It's a good question to ask of psychism in general.

BTW, the idea that we must have suffered some terrible thing in the past and are consequently embittered by it is also a typical BKism. That's the rumour they spread to try and discredit us, or the facts that we reveal about them?

Personally, relating to both vision and BKism, I'd say the key to understanding them is appreciate the difference between psychicisms and spirituality. The BKs like to promote themselves as "spiritual" but really they're "spiritualists" into spiritualism. It appears they are all sorts of weird and wonderful phenomena going on psychically, but what real world effect they have or are leading to is another question.

As you must know by now, the End Game for the BKs include the death of 7 billion impure human beings so that they can rule a purified world for 2,500 years. It's up to you whether you think that is positive or not. If you don't, don't support them.

Luckysmiler

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 19 Nov 2013

Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post25 Dec 2013

Dear Ex-I,

Sorry if I misinterpreted anything. I hadn't fallen asleep, I assure you and I am not a BK supporter in the way you may think. I am not here to argue, just learn ...

I have appreciated reading your responses ... I wanted to get an insight and my question has been answered very thoroughly :). I don't as yet have an opinion about what has been written as I adopted a neutral stance from the outset ... I am not a BK and am not here to debate. You guys have given great responses especially from a psychological perspective.

I take what works for me from any paths that teach me how to be a good person and give the best of myself and the BK knowledge and Murlis have given me that. Things that don't make sense or work for me I ignore and the things that do, I try my best to practice. As I said, I don't handle labels associated with religion/spirituality that well as I don't want my identity to be based on something that I am trying to still explore and develop, also not being attached to any identity helps me be open to accepting and appreciating and being open to other view points. I am very, very comfortable in the BK community but I would be equally comfy in a Buddhist monastery or Mosque in the midst of Quranic readings.

... I have a lot of regard and respect for the "Kriplani clan" and other BKs and for you Ex-I, you guys write so well! I have learnt a lot from this forum!
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ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10413
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post26 Dec 2013

Yup. "take what works for you and ignore the rest" is a typical BKism too. It works for them because it is better to capture 50% ... 30% ... 10% of someone rather than 0%. Of course, 100% pukka is best but they've learnt that aiming for 100% drives away too many so they've moderated their ambitions over time.

I think I'd define a BK, whether a "pukka" one or a bad one, as someone who believes the BK god spirit is the God of all religions; Allah, Jehovah etc, and a "BK supporter" as someone who does donates time or money to them.

So, what did/do you define as "visions"? You've had none, not in face to face meditations? Or what were the nature of the visions you referred to? Dreams?

And how do you relate BK visions to, say, the vision of angels or masters in many religions that people have had through all recorded time?

BK claimed to be the angels memorialised by all religions but for the Subtle Regions to only exist at this time. Who were these other angels and masters and where did they reside?
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