Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK truth

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Pink Panther

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post27 Dec 2013

ex-l wrote:OK, to put it simply, you're talking about premonitions? I think you make a good point about re-interpreting common archetypal images, e.g. spiritual Father figures, points of lights and so on. No, I was thinking of your experience in the shower.

PREMONITION!!! That’s the word that was eluding me!

Umm, the meditation in the shower thing - yes, I was going to go into a description of a specific vision that arose in that situation which then happened a few months later after I had become a BK - but as I wrote it I decided not to go there in full (and the relevance was probably lost in how I left it ... soz, never enough time for redrafting etc -).


Offtopic: Lucky smiler - I am a bit of a forum slut myself. I get involved on non-BK, non-spiritual discussion sites too when I get the time or the subject interests me. What you consider negativity here (even the worst I have read here) is really pretty mild. Anyway, sticks and stones these are not.

OK, in the New Age, spirituality circles much emphasis is put on ”nice”. The best way to adjudge what is said by anyone anywhere is to firstly determine how straightforward and honest it is.

A hard honest ”I don't like you, p*ss off” is better than a pretend ”I like you, come hither” - only to find they were ”being nice” or not wanting to hurt your feelings or to fill in their time, or be taken for a ride or sold something. (Most thieves I have ever encountered usually have some justification they tell themselves).

Secondly, people can be sincere and straightforward and genuinely lovely, but be deluded. So ask, is it true or not? Is there more than meets the eye or what’s felt in this moment?

When these come together - delusional self-belief and justification, personal disciplines and ideology. ”niceness” & ulterior motives (aka "Godly service") , people enter real cognitive dissociation - not even realising (even denying the possibility of) how their values & decisions are manifesting, unable (unwilling?) to empathise with those ideologically separate, labelling them in many ways - in religious terms, blasphemers, heretics, infidels; in BK terms - new birth/late birth souls, karmically indebted, locked intellects, agyani (ignorant), body conscious, lokik, Shudra, lower caste, subject souls etc (have you learnt all the jargon yet?).

So, take anything that you read here that you’d prefer ”otherwise” as people mostly being honest, or hard hitting for a reason (and using their right of free expression) . The BK new agey Niceness is something that many adopt who fear assertiveness, shy away from hard challenging truths (you will not exist one day) , or who can’t deal with hard-nosed vulgar speech (note: vulgar just means, literally, the language of the common people) .

Some people here have been seriously hurt or had their lives seriously waylaid. The whole idea of expressing doubt, displeasure, criticism (let alone anger) is anathema to the BKs. Having a forum where people can be angry, amongst people who understand what they are angry about, is highly valuable.

Some who haven't felt able to express their feelings during or after involvement in the BKs (some were ”in” for very long periods and reached fairly high levels in the organisation) have topped themselves, or had serious mental health issues, or found their lives completely turned inside out and upside down.

As to Jayanti, DJ and others being charismatic or powerful or lovely or whatever well (sorry Godwin) they said the same about Adolph. But seriously, see my "secondly" point.
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ex-l

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post27 Dec 2013

Pink Panther wrote:What you consider negativity here (even the worst I have read here) is really pretty mild.

I am going to sound like a stuck record here, but that "it's not what you say but the way you say it" line is also typically BK.

We've had a lot of it. Personally, I can remember Jayanti using it on me in person as a means of control or manipulation back in the 1980s. And I was as right then as I am now too.

Lucky smiler, the BKs often criticize us using that but it's just b/s ... because even if we were to say things in a manner they deem acceptable, they would still ignore it. It's just all about a certain sort of BK, e.g. a sort of snobby, defensive, school prefect/bourgeois type exercising control over others. I think the BKs (by which I mean the Kirpalani Klan) are experts at tying people in knots and disarming their self-expression.

Calling us "vulgar" means they don't have to take on board what we point out. It's a cheap and simple excuse not to listen to something they don't want to hear, or to discredit an opinion which may well be correct. They gloss over all the amazing stuff we have discussed and exposed here, and say we're just "disgruntled ex-members" claiming stuff like "it's because we think we weren't shown enough respect when we were BKs".

The BKs do invest great importance in controlling the facade they present to the world. It works for them as it fools outsiders as to their real beliefs, motivations and agendas. Many folks who have passed through this portal has witnessed the facade crack and what is behind it show.

This is the problem that needs to be squared and it is related to this vision business too ... being "powerful" or charismatic, whatever that BK power is based on, does not automatically equate to being good or ethical. It still allows one to do really bad things.

Likewise, visions may be wonderful and surprising and make a dull life more exciting, but at the same time absolutely misleading and unreliable.

Back to you though ... what are the nature of these visions? Were they just dreams, or what?

Luckysmiler

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post07 Jan 2014

Hi Ex-I,

I haven't had any visions at all. When people talk about them, I cannot relate whatsoever ... probably because I am too pre-occupied with assessing whether I am deluding myself so the thoughts, analyses and trying to rationalise stuff; probably puts me in a position where I don't give myself a chance to experience "anything spiritual" during meditation.

I just stick to what works for me and try to give my best but if I am feeling crap or moody, I let myself feel that and then the negativity dissipates - that works for me.

As for the BK stuff, my experiences have genuinely been positive and, yes, I wouldn't call myself a "pukka BK". If I am a servant/subject of DJ or any Seniors in a "Golden Age" - or a "cremator" then so be it - it doesn't bother me at all. I don't really care about what will happen in an after-life, whatever that may be. I am just concerned with being the best I can be in the now and the BK organisation has provided me with a lot of opportunities where I can develop and use my skills to hopefully do some good - these opportunities and experiences have come to me in life for a reason. In a similar vain, if there is an activity that I don't want to participate in, I am not afraid to say "no". I am very comfy because I know myself and my boundaries - I am not happy when I force myself to do something or believe in something that my heart doesn't allow me to but I am open to adapting and changing my boundaries if I feel it will be better for me.

I have always felt that we can develop the ability to appreciate people - the goodness within them even if there are things about them that may not be great? I feel really crap when I dwell on the negatives about people, it leaves a bitter taste and then I feel angry and irritable - something about that just doesn't feel right probably because I am hurting myself but obviously that's my experience and everyone is very unique.

Anyways, thanks again for your insights regarding the original question!
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Pink Panther

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post08 Jan 2014

Luckysmiler,

Nothing you say is ”wrong”. But you surely understand that there are wonderful people in all sectors of society, there are spiritual mysteries, experiences to be had in all kinds of ways, there are visions had also in all kinds of ways which ”confirm” or predicate other experiences.

Now ask yourself - given the universal beauty of humankind, and the tendency to overestimate ourselves and our judgements, - what touchstone do you use to determine whether an organisation is one you want to be associated with?

You can be sure that few people become full BKs overnight. It is a kind of assimilation, you get more and more comfortable, your social and intellectual references are reflected from a narrower group, there is increasing confirmational reinforcement of certain values and views, and one can only make decisions based upon the information one has come across ... OK, you may be immune to this and ”I only take what works for me”, but consider this.

Does subscribing to The London Times mean one supports Murdoch’s neo-con agenda?

You can argue - ”Not really. Someone may buy it only for the crossword & sudoku, and its news reporting is not as biased as The Sun or Fox News”.

Yet buying The Times does not only add that small support to the Murdoch agenda, it also subtracts an equal amount of support from independent publishers. It’s a double effect. And as the independents are the ones who'll scrutinise that agenda, it’s a quadruple effect.

There are multiple products & services that any large organisation like the BKWSU provides, often what seems to be the "core business" is not really. They have other agendas.

For example, McDonald’s is not a fast food retailer - they make their money from mainly real estate - by what the franchisees pay in rents; secondly, royalties from the franchisees and, thirdly, profits from selling supplies to the franchisees, who cannot legally buy elsewhere.

Ronald McDonald charities may do genuine good, but does it make up for the social corruption or the adverse nutritional outcomes? What is the totality of the situation? Buying salad from them may be convenient, but ... is it the only shop around?

We are each but one person making our way through a complex universe and doing what we can, it’s hard to unravel all this. But listen, you can get good crosswords, sudoku and news reporting outside the Murdoch Empire. You can get better hamburgers away from fast food franchises.

Don’t be mistaken, the BKWSU is not so different to a multinational franchise. The model is slightly different. The rewards for franchisees are intangible. The binding* contract has psycho-emotional clout. The costs are sometimes very tangible.

What I am suggesting - avoid BK "processed spirituality”, make your own from fresh ingredients daily from varied sources.

What many of us here are saying is the equivalent of ”Behind this brand’s 'Free Trade' badging is exploitation of labour, abuse of power, hypocrisy, aggregation of wealth, cover ups of history, cover ups of crimes, ready association with corrupt politicians and police, a financial and spiritual pyramid scheme, elitism, entrenched discrimination based on clan, caste, race, social status, fame and a psychological contracts that has destroyed some who tried to get out."

It may surprise you, but when examined, the psycho-spiritual collective does not manifest that differently to the corporate or political collectives when they are examined.

OK. There is some aspect of ”free trade” to BKWSU Enlightenment Juice and certainly there are worse - but there’s a whole lot more than what meets the eye. Wake up and smell the coffee.
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ex-l

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Re: Visions of Brahma Baba & Shiv Baba lend support to BK tr

Post09 Jan 2014

Luckysmiler wrote:I haven't had any visions at all. When people talk about them, I cannot relate whatsoever ... probably because I am too pre-occupied with assessing whether I am deluding myself so the thoughts, analyses and trying to rationalise stuff; probably puts me in a position where I don't give myself a chance to experience "anything spiritual" during meditation.

The sort of visions (and experiences( I wrote about generally happened randomly, without effort, as a surprise, to newcomers without any knowledge and through making no effort. And, yes, I do know (not believe) they happened. They happened so relatively frequently, in comparison to the general public, that I think I became somewhat blasé about them.

More than often they happened whilst teaching the 7 Day Course. Less often they just happened to individuals without making any BK effort at all.

And I'd say 99% of Sisters in white going, "Baba gave the soul a vision ..." after a meditation session were just making up some twaddle. I would say that became a sort of fashion, the manner in which it is said sort of codified at some point in the early 1980s from London and spreading out to other Western centers.

One could track its lineage down from Jayanti, via the middle management like Maureen and the old Sister Joan. Jayanti used to put in impressive trance performances every Thursday where she would go off to another world and come back with a vision to relate. Sudesh used to cover for her when she was away touring or on her period but most felt Sudesh was just making them up as she did not go into deep trance like Jayanti. I heard Jayanti stopped doing so but am not up to date. These "visions" were then copied by every wannabe Jayanti center-in-charge in the West. It became formalised and then so distracting then, again, I heard they stopped officially allowing them. I would say, after a couple of years, I could make them up myself and suspect other here could or were encouraged to. I would say they were mostly just 'free association', as in psychoanalysis.

Those, however, do not seem to be the kind of visions you are talking about. You are specifically mentioning visions of Shiva bindi and BapDada, or even the Dadis sometimes, before an individual becomes a BK.

The profound visions and experience (feelings such as weightlessness, being a ball of energy or light, traveling out of the body or being surrounded by white or red light) seem to happen to individuals rather than individuals make them happen themselves. They seemed to be given to encourage individuals in their adherence.

You could say, this was "proof" it "must be god" ... which is what the BKs base their business on ... but I would have to ask, why would it have to be "God-God"? is not that a terribly tall leap in faith? Why not 'a god' ... a spirit ... a higher being ... a deluding angels of light ... there are plenty of other potentials to filter out first? I don't deny they happen, it's just that 75 years on ... 25 years or more years after Destruction was meant to happen ... all the other evidence does not support the theory that it is a particularly high minded or enlightened being or beings behind them. (Lekhraj Kirpalani included).

The evidence suggests a trickster god to me ... which may sound derogatory but wasn't Krishna a trickster god? A psychically charged environment, without a doubt, but ultimately going round and round in circles. I think the lesson is to gain sufficient strength, and know when to leave their orbit.
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