Definition of cheating

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arvind.giri

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Definition of cheating

Post17 Feb 2014

My little daughter (2.5 yrs) had a habit of eating raw dough. Whenever we make Chapatis (Indian bread) she just sits with us there and starts eating kneaded balls. Me and my wife sometimes become little worried as we feel it is not good for her, as eating unbaked dough may perhaps cause stomachache. We are not very sure though :).

So we told her that if she would eat the dough, she will have stomachache.

Now I wonder that if one fine day in future, she would explore it by herself (or maybe somebody will tell her) that eating dough doesn't cause stomachache at all. What would be her reaction? Will it be right for her to label us as cheaters?

Let's take one more example.

Suppose A and B are friends. A lends 1000$ to B and B promises to return him the money after 30 days.
After 30 days B asks A to reach a particular place and heads himself towards the same.
There he gets stuck in traffic jam and his mobile battery dries up.

What should A think after waiting for 1 hr. A may think that B cheated him, but is it the reality? Later when A would know the reality he would realize that it was not cheating at all.

Can we judge the cheating by understanding only half part of the story?
What exactly is the definition of cheating. Do actions only establish cheating or one should also take into account the intentions as well?

Thoughts?

I'd request everyone to focus on the topic and not throw the facts until required to prove some logic.
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ex-l

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post17 Feb 2014

Let's just cut to the chase and discuss what you are discussing, i.e. the rights and wrongs of the BK god spirit and leadership cheating every one they can ... for some allegedly greater purpose, e.g. a high status in the Golden and Silver Age.

You're leading us to consider it might be 'acceptable cheating'.

Two of us asked you now, how long and how deeply involved with the Brahma Kumaris, please answer so we can judge how to answer you best.

Baba says, "be essenceful", so get to your point. You're not a two year old child, so different standards apply.

Personally, I would not say to a child something "will" unless I knew it did. Therefore, yes, you are wrong and such a habit will backfire on you one day. I would say, "might" or "may", or merely establish that it is a bad habit to eat food before it is ready, and to stick hands that are preparing food for others into your mouth. Or at two years old, just say, "no", as there is no guarantee they understand anything else anyway. *

Would I expect a 50 year old, highly successful businessman - Lekhraj Kirpalani's date of birth was 15 December 1884, not 15 December 1876 as the BKWSU "cheats" - to know that he was not god, or question whether it was necessary that his followers were told he was god for 20 years, or for his followers to question or challenge him for believing he was "greater than god" ... of course!!! You're off into the realms of mental illness at that point.

It's a question of scale. Robbing thousands of millions of dollars for decades on the basis of false predictions of the End of the World does not equate with kids and dough balls.

Say what you are trying to say and don't act like an internet conman trying to sell us something ... and go back and study that list of Logical Fallacies you were given before.

Thank you
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ex-l

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post18 Feb 2014

* I am a dirty, impure Shudra but even I was brought up this way ... never to eat food until the meal was ready, "because it would spoil my dinner". That makes sense biologically.

It was also the way I was taught to prepare food in both Hinduism, and Brahma Kumarism. We were taught not to eat any food until after it was offered to God. This is a nearly universal (old fashioned) habit, e.g. to offer food to the gods, or say thanks or grace before eating.

It teaches us restraint, control and gratitude - which are good things.

Therefore, if you want to argue the case why it is acceptable for the god spirit of the Brahma Kumaris to lead on, manipulate or outrightly cheat his followers, please do.

Or explain to us what kind or level of god spirit he is.

Not all cultures have trickster gods. Generally, from a spiritual point of view, gods operating at that level are seen to be at lower level, not higher or Supreme.

Yes, Hinduism does therefore your finding this kind of behaviour acceptable might just be cultural. It may be no big deal to you. You might accept it because, culturally. "... all the gods are like that!".

Have you ever considered the lenses through which you see life?

arvind.giri

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post18 Feb 2014

I got everything except answer of my question. Let me reiterate that once again.

Do actions only establish cheating ? (or one should also take into account the intentions as well)

Answer
    1) Yes
    2) No
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Pink Panther

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post18 Feb 2014

arvind.giri wrote:Do actions only establish cheating ? (or one should also take into account the intentions as well)
Answer
    1) Yes
    2) No

Your point is "intention matters”.

A self-proclaimed supreme being who is repeatedly caught with his pants down can’t keep claiming forever that he was not in error, merely ”motivating” and inspiring his ”children".

Young children see their parents as infallible god-like beings.

A child who is told things by his parents which are repeatedly shown to be mistaken, wrong, untrue , whether intentionally or not, will soon learn that the parents are not ”gods” but ordinary fallible people. Like everyone else.

If they are lucky, they will have parents who actively disabuse them of their inflated expectations of the parents, and teach them about real respect being commanded, not demanded.

If they are unlucky, they will have parents who, even when they have been proven fallible many times over, will continue to demand respect and to insist their ”relationship status” to the child automatically confers infallibility and god-like authority.
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Mr Green

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post20 Feb 2014

your actions are a result of your intentions! thought comes before action, education changes intention therefore changes action, it's not that complicated

come on man don't try and con us we know the truth about the BKs, learn and appreciate or carry on with Bhakti marg

don't waste our time, your obviously intelligent don't think you know better than us and try and trick us into saying what you believe about us

bkti-pit

Independent, free thinking BK

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post22 Feb 2014

What point are you trying to make Arvind?

BK leadership have been lying and cheating for decades and their God has done nothing to stop it. It is proven fact.
Could their intentions be pure having done it so consistently for so long?
To be in denial about it is a serious impairment in my view.

Besides: a good intention does not make a wrongful action right.

saveyourlife

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post23 Apr 2014

MAD GUYS, FAKE GOD, FAKE STORIES, STUPID BK WORLD. WHAT A GREAT HOAX THAT IS.
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ex-l

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post24 Apr 2014

saveyourlife wrote:MAD GUYS, FAKE GOD, FAKE STORIES, STUPID BK WORLD. WHAT A GREAT HOAX THAT IS.

Thank you. Says it all really. We can close down the website and just leave that message.

What you need to add, however, is ...

DESTROYED 10,000s OF FAMILIES, WASTED 100,000s OF LIVES AND $10,000,000s OF DOLLARS DOING NOTHING (except feeding and housing their old dishonest and manipulative leaders).

Save Innocents

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post08 May 2014

Spiritually, cheating is said to be done if you hurt someone by your thoughts, actions and speech by telling or doing or thinking to do the thing as opposed to real facts known to you. Severe cheating occurs when you do so intentionally. Cheating through Man Vachan Kaya is not that harmful as when you do so, it get answered in this very life. One may beat you, scold you, speak harsh words or may stop talking to you.
But when it is done by deep inner intentions (or through bhaav), it is very harmful. The root cause to bind karma is bhaav not the activities of mind body speech. The karma bounded on such account are paapanubandhi paap or punyaanubandhi paap karma which give result in next birth in the form of cheating done to you by others.
In case you do not intend to cheat others but they feel cheated on your account, then you always have chance to explain yourself, one would easily understand it. If they do not understand or refuse to even listen you, then last and ultimate tool to remove accumulated paap is Pratikraman. It is a spiritual tool to be used wisely. Read more about Pratikraman on www.dadabhagwan.org website and download book on Pratikraman from magzine segment. It will be highly useful to you.
One must be ready to listen, understand and accept everyone's view as the soul reside in all living being & at elemental state it is same for all. Reality has infinite facets and we see only one of it but the fully enlightened ones like Lord Mahavir or Lord Krishna are at centre and have absolute vision to see all views and accept all of them as right from Tattvagyan.

Save Innocents

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post08 May 2014

Dear arvind.giri,

Problem comes where BK tell not to listen anyone as everyone is paapi. Well, here everyone has already been a BK. My question to you is that don't you wish to become fully enlightened? You can do so by your own efforts. If it is not possible, take help of enlightened ones but don't get confused. If knowledge maladjust us with everyone else, then better is to leave that knowledge because natural force act to uplift us naturally and much fast as compared to degradation done by wrong knowledge.

There are total 14 levels of spiritual enlightenment. More than 99% people are on 1st level from where they progress toward higher levels. On reaching 13th level, full Kevalgyan occurs and Absolute knowledge manifests where you will be able to see entire universe, all its mysteries, answer to all your questions, all lokas and the person becomes Yogeshwar. There is no differences in abilities of your soul and any high rank spiritual mentor.

But it all starts with initial step of "Self Realization" which you should try by all means to attain in this life. Don't leave it for future and for this one needs to meet a "Bhedgyani", one who knows atma and non-atma part and has siddhi to separate the two from inside. Thereby, he graces seeker by self realization and bliss prevails.

Sorry to say but BKs teachers are not going to give that to you, in the first place they discard that anyone can ever reach to their level. Why? Are they not human beings. As you are an Indian, so it should be clear to you that their claim that they are Devis is completely false. Devis do not even touch their feet on Earth during Kalyug. And these who call themselves Devis not only live on Earth but also eat and excrete daily. And that is so acceptable to me as I consider them as simple humans. But I don't feel here like arguing uni-directionally.

Last thing you must not believe everything blindly and become a puppet. Think wisely and realize that how can you not achieve full enlightenment when you have all resources within yourself. It just needs a trigger and your real goal of life will get accomplished.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post09 May 2014

There are total 14 levels of spiritual enlightenment.

Those on the 15th level understand that there is no number and only the horizon is level… ;)

Save Innocents

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post09 May 2014

Hellol Pink Panther,

There is liberation at the end of 14th level. Well, these levels are called Gunasthanak, in Shastra language. One thing needs to be very clear that if some institute fakes reality like BKWSU do, it does not mean that there is no right path available. I do completely agree that people who have undergone mental trauma there and left the system like me cannot hope anything good from such institutes. But it all can restart from us.

Events happen in our life to teach something either good or bad. And you are very true about "horizon"as it is something that instills hope and motivates us to seek which is beyond our reach. Lastly, thanks as at least you gave comments on reply.

I hope it would be fun here in understanding the real situation of BKWSU, hardly anything has changed about them except manipulated facts.
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ex-l

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post09 May 2014

Tell us about what you saw going on in the BKWSU and how it put you off, Save Innocents.

Many Western BKs have a sort of luxury existence within the BKWSU, some are even allow to marry, turn Seva into a money making business and the Sindis are happy to let them as long as it is good for their business too.

We heard many reports from India of poor villages and women being told to hand over their jewellery which was then given to VIPs. Also of violence between the BKs and other BK groups like the PBKs.

My fear is that the BKs are really doing nothing to uplift poor individuals they suck into their cult and, although I have no knowledge or experience of any spiritual levels, I could agree with the concept that the BKs trap individuals at a certain level.

Perhaps they uplift then one lever ... but then block their further development and trap them?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Definition of cheating

Post10 May 2014

As someone said earlier, cheating is knowingly breaking the rules, knowingly abusing some advantage one has over another. Most people cheat in small ways at some time. Some know they cheat but justify it as being the greater good. Some don’t realise they are cheating, while others realise it but convince themselves they are not cheating.

Whether the BKSWU cheats less or more than any other organised religious group, or individual BKs cheat more than adherents to other groups is a moot discussion, because we are here to discuss the BKWSU. If it reflects on other religious beliefs, so be it.

Whenever a religion sets up a structure that grades people (caste) or has levels or hierarchies, it sets up a potential to replace clear experience, clear understanding and deeper wisdom with superficial presumptions and prejudices. It misses the point. It’s ironic, like saying - Be creative! Be innovative! Be yourself! Just do what I do!

Sure, the founder of a school of doctrines that explains things in numbers and lists may understand these lists and numbers and categories are merely tools to expand an acolyte’s understanding.

Then, what if the founder was well-intentioned, of greater achievement than his followers when they encounter him, but of lesser achievement when considered against bigger things, thereby misdirecting a follower away from fuller potentials? ... what if his followers thought they understood what he was teaching but did not, or were (sincerely) infected with the same self- aggrandisement he had, believed he was the Queen Bee and they were the Bee’s knees?
What if they misuse the definitions, categories and lists - or any position of authority followers grant them?

If the founder does not make it clear that these teachings/Gyan, levels are only tools - and that owning the tools is not the same as using them to live well, or that it is also possible to live well by other tools, then he is a mere salesman, a trickster.

Whenever a religion sets up a structure that grades or has levels, it sets up a potential for abuse.
It may not be intended to cheat or abuse, but the question is, is it happening?

Who determines who has achieved any particular level? How does anyone know whether the supposedly more enlightened higher level person who is adjudicating their achievement is really superior & higher level or just a self-deceiver of small accomplishment whose sincere self-belief convinces others too?

Human are clever enough to conceive there are differences of perception and comprehension. They are clever enough to conceive of levels and grades. They are clever enough to realise that no one among them can have complete perception and comprehension beyond the human.
They can imagine that therefore only a non-human can. But how will they, with inferior capacity, clearly recognise someone/something so unlike themselves, who is supposedly so superior, who has ‘complete perception and comprehension” when they meet them?

This is surely a basis for being cheated.

Like in the TV show The Simpsons, the mother Marg is deciding to get a job. She says’ I could teach piano’. Her daughter, who plays saxophone, says ”but you can’t even play piano” to which Marg replies ”I will only need to stay one lesson ahead”

So to your question SaveInnocents. We finally realised that what "sounded musical” (Murli?) to our innocent/naive ears, what was being taught and we were asked to practice, is not accomplished music at all. It is someone else telling us of this wonderful thing he once heard, wind chimes in the distance, and he figured it was music, but as he is privy to it and no one else hears what he hears, he will teach us ...

But it is his ”idea” of music, and we have to take him on trust. But in the end it was only a 4 bar lull-aby, all in one key and endless repeat play.
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