The experience of meeting BapDada

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kmanaveen

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post19 Jul 2014

Many BKs report this same better experience in private meditation than in front of ”BapDada”.
What does that say about the experience in meditation and how it can be explained in different ways?

That is true. There were many who infact complained of 'no experience' in front of BapDada and had some experiences at other places. Different for different persons and may be related to your expectations, previous efforts, situations that one faces in a life and other factors which may be no one still knows. What I said about purity was what BKs usually refer to and in short that was usually about being vice-less, be it thoughts and/or actions.

I agree with PP that pure thought is just a thought and may be pure action is also similar, that is focused for toward a goal and with complete determination without any guilt or perhaps pride too built in. In Indian history, even some hard core dacoits completely turned into great spiritual persons, possibly because their earlier thoughts and action were pure regardless of being good or bad. Anyway that may be a different discussion.

I was once very surprised when visited by couple of BKs for two days and I asked a Senior Sister to sleep in a room where another BK Brother was also sleeping (ofcourse in different beds) in the night, but she completely refused and told its against Maryadas. We had to offer our whole bed room to her and we all were on floor in living room. No grudges for that but what is this Maryadas which is never tested? Saints are tested in bazaars (especially in brothels) but your Maryadas are good for nothing if they can not stand any test and tend to avoid any. Me and my wife used to sleep together when we were BKs (we never told senior BKs as we knew they won't understand our point). There were tempting times, for sure, but we were determined to follow celibacy. However, does all these Maryadas slowly purify your thoughts or create all sort of chaos in your mind, making a hell of your life? What I saw there were many BKs who were completely lost fighting their own natural desires, fighting relations because of their partners or family being non-BKs and it was easy to see how unhappy they were.

PP, what do you think of this phenomenon of wow experience in front of BapDada or anywhere else? Does it ooz out of oneself and is a consequence of peaceful state of mind or what?
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ex-l

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post19 Jul 2014

Is not the whole "meeting with BapDada" thing a kind of play acting ... acting how how things used to be when Lekhraj Kirpalani was alive and "holding court" in front of the 300 to 80 or so original Om Mandlite/Madhuban residents?

Has it not become some kind of Bhakti ritual "darshan" where they dress up their deity ... or medium of their deity ... in the same way that the Hindus dress up statues and act out rituals in temples ... playing the 'role' of being God Lekhraj Kirpalani as it was in the past? A sort of sentiment memory for them.

Remember Lekhraj Kirpalani was "God" amongst them until 1956 or more.


Something that people have often discussed here are the bizarre and incredibly selfish politics of who gets to be on stage with BapDada and why?

Why, for example, do those who were "lucky" - in BK terms - to have spent time with Lekhraj Kirpalani when he was alive, get to dominate and monopolise Lekhraj Kirpalani now he is dead?

Wouldn't a "God" institute a fairer system were, for example, a wider selection of individuals had the experience' or even had it as a reward for special efforts? Instead, the most common deciding factor is more than often how much money you have, or have given to the BKWSU, or how rich and famous you are ... hardly "enlightened" factors.

Does "God" really care about such things the most? I would absolutely not ... or if that is what he does, he is no God of mine. He must be a relatively low level god.

Or just the dead, social climbing Sindhi businessman Lekhraj Kirpalani was.

Therefore, it's no wonder folks don't have the experiences they crave and have made sacrifices for a year or more to experience.

And, remember, for many of the poor from India and overseas ... it's a once in a lifetime experience.

Why then does the "Lord of the Poor" and his Sindis push them right back to a hall full of 1,000s whilst they hug, feed and clamber all over their god? What is that saying?

If you analyse it, it's all about power ... a show of power, of ownership of God ... showing BKs who has the power in the religion. Underlining the myth that the most superior souls in the world are those that spent the most time in the 5,000 Cycle nearest to Lekhraj Kirpalani in his numerous forms and never commit the 'sin' or weakness of leaving Bharat (India) and converting to a foreign religion.

kmanaveen

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post20 Jul 2014

ex-l wrote:Is not the whole "meeting with BapDada" thing a kind of play acting ... acting how how things used to be when Lekhraj Kirpalani was alive and "holding court" in front of the 300 to 80 or so original Om Mandlite/Madhuban residents?

Initially I had these doubts. But I feel something does happen, at least Gulzar is not acting. I met both Janaki and Gulzar Dadis later. I found former quite money minded and restless (BKs will call it my own thoughts reflection and turn Janaki into a divine mirror), but the later was more settled and peaceful. In fact, I liked meeting her. I don't think she act every time on stage.
Has it not become some kind of Bhakti ritual "darshan" where they dress up their deity ... or medium of their deity ... in the same way that the Hindus dress up statues and act out rituals in temples ... playing the 'role' of being God Lekhraj Kirpalani as it was in the past? A sort of sentiment memory for them.

For many it is Bhakti only. And many BKs unknowingly continue to follow BKism as another form of Bhakti. The daily Bhog process and on stage making Gulzar eat all sugary stuffs when telling others that God does not even smell any food, is nothing but Bhakti only. And they can find all justifications for their own Bhakti. But if someone finds peace going to a temple or mosque, they laugh at them forgetting that basically the same psychological rules play in all human beings that brings peace and joy to them.
Why then does the "Lord of the Poor" and his Sindis push them right back to a hall full of 1,000s whilst they hug, feed and clamber all over their god? What is that saying?

Right. That is a pity. Innocent people hanging around the windows and being pushed out. In a way, BKs tell them to realize that heaven is for them and these poor ones are only slaves to them here or in heaven. And they have grown this mentality without any guilt, thanks to Baba.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post20 Jul 2014

Is not the whole "meeting with BapDada" thing a kind of play acting ...
kmanaveen wrote:: PP, what do you think of this phenomenon of wow experience in front of BapDada or anywhere else? Does it ooz out of oneself and is a consequence of peaceful state of mind or what?

There is "play acting", which is superficial or childish, and there is play acting as a method/yukti or ritual to create a state of mind which gives permission to certain emotions otherwise denied, releases endorphins and other neuro-chemicals, and so on.

Sufis & sikhs, Tibetan lamas, American Lakota, Caitanya devotees a la Hare Krisna, Californian Hopi, the desert Pitjantjatjara, pentecostalist protestants, Byzantynes and barbarians etc - all use rituals, song, chant, silence, meditation, prayer, focus and so on,as methods to bring the heart & mind into a state that is identified with their "chosen one".

Who is that chosen one?

That’s practically irrelevant. It's the experience invoked that matters. It’s the altered consciousness that is important. The ”chosen one” is merely another yantra. Some practitioners in some traditions know and acknowledge this, others naively insist it is theirs alone.

When a BK is in one’s own place, making effort for an ASC (altered state of consciousness) there is the "fruit” of that effort - which through regular routine and practice in predetermined regular conditions, can be ”willed” into being. When they are in a new place, out of routine, in a large hall, but with the object of their adoration supposedly right there and then in front of them, one can consider that such effort as is required when in their distant home to transcend time and space is not necessary when in the personage’s presence. But it does not.

My experience is that I would switch into or out of that feeling of connectedness, depending on my thoughts, not depending on Gulzar’s ASC or ”channelling” of BapDada). I.E. It does come in that place only at those times when you still put in the effort for your own self-transcendence, as you would in your own place.

That effort (and fruit of effort) is motivated not only looking for the ”experience" itsef but there is a sense that one becomes ”more worthy” and somehow that object of adoration must have some kind of mirror ”experience” - if I am feeling close to my ”god’ then my ”god” must know it is ”I” he is now close to. Like the teen princess thinks her idol must have noticed her ”special” fan letter that was surely unique, distinguishable from all the others, and as she feels so close to him , he must feel that in return ...

But the guru or rock star or object of adoration merely ”implies” that they are the source of it, inviting responses audible, emotional, visceral or mental, and in turn they suck up the adoration generated, which keeps them on their pedestal able to do their thing.

Even Rajneesh who was so cynical about such things, fell victim to the adoration, going from respected scholar and philosopher to global infamy (being a Leo, his fall was written in his stars).

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Pink Panther

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

Oops - I stand corrected - Chandra Mohan Jain aka Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was a Sagittarius born in Madhyar Pradesh, but, they are not so different to Leo, especially male Sag & Leo.

A quick online horoscope is superficial but still revealing for those interested in such things ...
here.

Please do not let this distract from topic ...

Furthering the analogy of the teenage girl princess who idolises her pop star hero - is not much of how Lekhraj presented himself as to the young women and girls of the early Om Mandli playing directly to this romantic tendency? How much of the Murli is like romantic pop songs sung to, and for, pubescent young girls, constructed to sound as if it is sung ”personally ‘ to each one -
    ♩♪ ”I will marry you, if you stay true♫
    We will be together for a thousand years”♫♩
    You will be my krisna, I will be your gopi
    You will be Narayan, I will be Lakshmi
    You will be the prince I will be the princess”♩♩



I am sure there are probably Hindi pop songs that include similar lyrics. So what we have here is a religion that for many is built on its appeal to immature (or low) emotional intelligence combined in a weird mixture with meditation techniques, mythology, asceticism and more - not unlike the rock opera/satire ”Tommy" in which a deaf, dumb and blind teenager’s gifts at playing pinball make him first a teen idol then a guru who tells his followers that to follow him and reach their own ”enlightenment” they too must become deaf, dumb and blind and play pinball!!

So, relating this to BKs, instead of each one learning to learn for themselves, finding their own individuality and path in life, they are each made dependant, expected to imitate the guru and become inferior copies, numberwise. And if they are lucky they will get his attention, And even though they know they can never all marry him as he is ”betrothed”, they are regularly assured that as much as they keep him in their hearts, he is theirs. So please send money ...
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ex-l

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

What about "simple" charisma, or mesmerism? Are there any such as siddhis whereby one person or being can directly effect the state of mind or experience of another?

Charisma is more than just play acting. You either got it or you ain't, honey. For me, mesmerism appears to be hypnotism - which is a skill that can be learnt - with charisma added. Do I believe or could I actually say I have seen or experienced "siddhis", one person effect another in some inexplicable manner? Yes I would. I don't think it is all triggers to induces internal or self-generated experiences.

Was Lekhraj Kirpalani a charismatic character? ... Without a doubt, to his community and others, it appears he was. And there's nothing most people find more charismatic than being seriously wealthy.

Was Lekhraj Kirpalani initiated into a Siddhi power? ... That's what the history says.

So you have a charismatic individual with Mesmeric qualities, teaching a hypnotic practise ... that could explain the early days and all the intensely psychic craziness of them ... but from beyond the grave now!

For you Pink Panther ... is BapDada the deceased Lekhraj Kirpalani or some other being?

kmanaveen

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

... is BapDada the deceased Lekhraj Kirpalani or some other being?


To many Indians, who strongly believe in soul and rebirths, even the phenomenon that Lekharaj's soul (assuming that is the case) is not getting into a body (rebirth) and entering Gulzar now for so many years, is not less than a miracle. Why and how a soul remains in that active body-less stage (again assuming the rebirth of soul a truth)?

On the other hands, there are many siddh persons who can mesmerize you, give you visions when you meet them. I have friends who when met their gurus first time, had similar experiences and naturally ' realize ' their gurus.

Save Innocents

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

kmanaveen wrote:Initially I had these doubts. But I feel something does happen, at least Gulzar is not acting.

Actually, she is a much refined actor who can confuse reality with drama.

Save Innocents

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

Your post really distracted me from the topic, PP. Thank you soooo....much for posting one of my favourite song " Love Story". May God(other than BKs) bless you.
♩♪ ”I will marry you if you stay true♫
We will be together for a thousand years”♫♩
You will be my krisna I will be your gopi
You will be Narayan, I will be Lakshmi
You will be the prince I will be the princess”♩♩

Ha ha ha. :D I cannot stop laughing at this. Is it from Murli ? ha ha ha :D

Actually, I watched an animated flick, "Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Golden Age'Hoole (2010)" where many owls were blinded with a flash of red light of moon, later to work for senior owls. The whole BKWSU system appears exactly similar to this. May be the director of this movie made it based on BKWSU. Who knows?
And if they are lucky they will get his attention, And even though they know they can never all marry him as he is ”betrothed”, they are regularly assured that as much as they keep him in their hearts, he is theirs. So please send money ...

Unbelievable. Is he ready to marry 9,00,000 in his future birth? :D It is not different from other dowry systems where girl has to pay to marry desired boy in India generally. That is a dirty institute without any doubt.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

ex-l wrote:What about "simple" charisma, or mesmerism?

For charisma and mesmerism/hypnotism to work usually needs the subject to be willing, or at least open.

An artist who had placed an installation of sculptures in the desert was asked by the interviewer whether he felt people who drove that distance might feel cheated if they didn’t like the work. He replied - when people, other than critics, go even to a local gallery, they go wanting to like the work. So too only those who have have heard about his installation and know about it will make the trip, and that they have decided to make the trip means they have some sympathy with what he is attempting to do. Whether they are impressed by the work, or the desert, or the combination is practically moot.

When people go to the BKs, or later go to Mt Abu (or Abu Rd) they go wanting to be affected positively. There are many reasons why some are not affected ”positively”. Of course in the BKs eyes it shows they are ”lesser birth” souls. More likley they are not as willing to suspend disbelief as the idealistic devotee.

And my reference to teenage romance & pop tunes is not just because of Lekhraj’s habit of having ”love themes” from different films played during meditation. Many Sakar Murlis (used to?) begin with him re-interpreting them to make himself "the beloved” That is, charisma is not just sitting there doing nothing, it's words and deeds, vocal intonations, body language and the look from the eye
ex-l wrote: ... is BapDada the deceased Lekhraj Kirpalani or some other being?

IMO neither.

If you read the original Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Murlis (before their constant revisions) it is a different voice that speaks. The syntax is very different, the emphasis is very different. Even as BKs we observed that the sankaras of the medium must be ”filtering’" the language and themes for Gulzars’ classes were more similar to Avyakt Murlis in style & emphasis than the Sakar Murlis were!

If the ”Sakar Baba” was close to his ”perfection" before his death (It was said he was ”karmateet" well before that), then those Murlis should surely be more similar. Like many yogis and lamas, he would have known his end was near and prepared himself and his followers, at least hinting at what was to come and indicating the continuation plan before the event. His death was unexpected and the succession was decided by committee, with reference to "trance messengers” to ”confirm” suggestions.

Gulzar was raised from a young age in the language and culture of the Om Mandli and PBKIVV. She went into "trance" and developed her modus operandi from young age. It was only a skip and step and firm belief that she could "channel" the dead patriarch that enables her to do so - a self-hypnosis if you like.

So, is spirit channelling actual or a psychological phenomenon? Good question.
Carl Jung on Atlantis and Reincarnation wrote:To Baroness Tinti
Dear Baroness, 10 January 1936

Many thanks for your interesting letter. Indeed, many of the peculiarities of the figures in the unconscious could be explained by a long-lasting primeval matriarchy if only we knew for certain that it ever existed, just as the flood myths could be explained by the myth of Atlantis if only we knew that there ever was an Atlantis.

Equally, the contents of the unconscious could be explained by reincarnation if we knew that there is reincarnation.
These hypotheses are at present articles of faith, and science is always in the modest role of a beggar since it has to be content with what it has.

If it did not it would be a fraud.

This is the reason why I restrict myself essentially to facts and observations and fight shy of mythological explanations.

Yours sincerely,

C.G. Jung ~ Letters Volume 1, Pages 208-209.
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Mr Green

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post22 Jul 2014

the experience of meeting Mrs Gulzar pretending to be BapDada
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ex-l

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post23 Jul 2014

Save Innocents wrote:I cannot stop laughing at this. Is it from Murli ?

I don't know if it is exactly word to word from a Murli but sentimentally it is correct and exactly ... only the inner circle teaches that the most faithful amongst them will spend 5,000 years, not 1,000 years, physically close to Lekhraj Kirpalani.

This is a key element to their faith ... and internal political control system. They teach that the most faithful will live close to, and want to live close to, Lekhraj Kirpalani for their entire existence of 84 births/5,000 years ... and, by inference, physical and social distance from Lekhraj Kirpalani is proof of one's spiritual distance from Lekhraj Kirpalani, aka Krishna/God Brahma.

They used to state this specifically. Faithful Westerner BKs, for example, would be told that they were not so bad because they must have only taken one or two births away from Lekhraj Kirpalani and India ... "for the sake of service" ... but the most pure and faithful of BKs were those who were with Lekhraj Kirpalani until the end of the 5,000 year circle.

Why, on earth, no one explained. It strike me that if you have, or only have, 84 lives ... it might be a good idea to get out, meet some other people, see some other places. Again, you can see how their beliefs dovetailed into the culture of the Bhaibund community with its cloistered women being encultured to remain at home and devoted to their husband and serving the elders of his family.

But, please don't let me distract conversation too far from the current conversation ...

Save Innocents

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post23 Jul 2014

Though I never met him, yet I always had the feeling of boredom while sitting in front of his selfie in that room at center. I had this horrible feeling while I did their Murli classes & something inside always forced me to get out of that place as soon as possible. You people really have courage to stay there for so long.

Once in Yoga bhatti, a senior BK Dadi from Vrindavan (one which is in Rajasthan, original Vrindavan is not in Rajasthan) attended the center & she looked calm from outside but when I asked her a question, after almost everyone left the center, she had this evil gaze for few moments as if I should not have asked her the question. Then she answered it in that BK style to add nothing to already known explanation.

Bigger question is: When you meet her, it is herself or so called BapDada?

ex-bk Jan

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post24 Jul 2014

Hi Save Innocents,

Did you wear like poverty in front of BK Dadi? (Sorry, it was sound like insult). As my feeling and experience about them, they really made me felt like ****. As Murli, always mention, be soul conscious, no body conscious. What I saw, they did something opposite of Murli. When you point out this matter, they given you the answer was because of your 'body conscious'. and advise you spend more time to practice bodyless stage. It was funny teaching, cult teaching. They conduct this clan, they always voice out "high, high elevated".

When I experience this BK life, it was low performance, poor culture, no proper guide life, poor of communication.
I also experienced the centre leader, she gave me evil gaze when she driving (after class, when I was walk alone). She really looks like an evil spirit.

There was one time lousy experience. After class, I was ready to go and met the centre leader, she used her evil eyes ''scanned'' on me, from top to bottom and from bottom to top. I was really shock about her performance. I gave her "Om Shanti", and quickly moved away.

Save Innocents

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Re: The experience of meeting BapDada

Post24 Jul 2014

Hi ex-BK Jan,

I just wore my casual tees & jeans. It was not all white, so may be that's why her expression changed. But many were there in colored casuals.
When I experience this BK life, it was low performance, poor culture, no proper guide life, poor of communication.

It was still same in 2010. It is just these days we see them trying to modernize their presentations externally or no one would come to their school. But internally, it remains unchanged.

Many of BK teachers even use make-up that Kajal (kohl), now that is body conscious or soul conscious, only they can tell.
She really looks like evil spirit.

Presently she is human being (though she considers herself as some Goddess, dumb) but in next birth, she will definitely reincarnate as evil one who will take revenge from everyone who has hindered her in becoming fully autocratic. So, I think I need to shut up or she will blow my head in her next birth which is due by few years.
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