The Truth about Life?

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Friend

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The Truth about Life?

Post21 Dec 2014

Hello to everyone.

I am in Gyan for a couple of years now and have to decide how much involved I want to be, partly because I don't know how much faith I have.

My question(s?) is: BK community aside, why did people in this forum who were BKs stop believing? I am talking about faith and not just wanting to get away from Brahmins.

There are some things that seem hard for me to believe like:
    1) 5000 years?
    2) The Murlis don't seem consistant to me and they surely are not artfully expressed.
    3) Why did it take for Prakashmani 40 more years than Mama to become karmateet?
    4) Why the delay of Destruction? The Sakar Murlis imply that it should have come decades ago.
And others ...

But I still try to explore the whole thing because of people's experiences with what they understand as God.

I mean, for the ones here who took drishti by (supposedly) BapDada in Abu or by strong yogis, how do you explain the feeling? To be honestly, I cannot take very seriously the cases of people who decided that the soul who looked at them was not God, because I do believe that they might just not be pure enough at that moment.

Also, during meditation, I have heard of experiences of immense love and seeing a red-ish area. Many people also feel very physically strong after Amrit Vela. Part of that could just be changes in the brain, but I dunno.

Also, what about the experiences of people in the Subtle Region with BapDada or the strength they get from Brahma Bojan (spelling probably wrong).

What about the feeling that you are bodiless after some time spent in meditation. is not that exactly according to what the Murlis say?

To sum it up: What do people who used to believe in all that now believe? That Raj Yoga is just another type of meditation and it's all in the mind? That BapDada exists but he/it is only a powerful spirit and that Lekhraj Kripalani was a crazy (semi-crazy?) person who imagined some things, and made others believe them, and now is still in existenze in spirit form? Was/is he possesed by another soul or not? Was the light that shone in his forehead a lie or a, illusion? What about the visions people had that drove them to him, or later, to a BK centre?

I assume different people will have different views but the thing is, as much as some things in the BK world seem like another religious variety, the experieces people have are not, to my knowledge, present in any other spiritual path.

Especially the drishti phenomenon.

Thanks in advance for any answers.
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ex-l

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post21 Dec 2014

Friend wrote: There are some things that seem hard for me to believe ...

I am sorry but I am very short on time today ...

Did Prakashmani and Mama really become karmateet? Is going senile a symptom of being karmateet?

How would you know ... because you were told by people who have lied, revised, covered up, borrowed ideas from other religions and plain fabricated for decades? Whose God predicted the End of the World in WWII, 1950 or 1976 etc?

I think if you do some research you'll discover many other religions had similar magical periods at their birth. I know what the BK answer for that is but they and their conduct fails to convince me that any god, never mind Supreme God, could be behind them.

It's more likely to be some powerful deluding or misleading spirit ... the concept of which also exists in traditional spiritual traditions.

Yes, I do think Lekhraj Kirpalani went through some kind of mental illness *as well* ... as a reaction to what ever initiation he paid a fortune to receive. We know his family thought he did. Even old timers in Madhuban talk of his habit of drifting off. Good heavens, right up until 1955 or later he and they still thought he was god. There was no god Shiva in the religion. Think about it rationally. What mind or mystery requires a man to believe he is god for 20 years?

Bottom line is, how much good and how much self-interest have the BKs really done or expressed in this world so far?

They have raked in multi-millions ... perhaps even over a billion ... and how have they spent it? 99.9% on serving themselves, acquiring power, influence and properties.

99% of the what the BKs are about is social climbing. Would "God" really care about that?

I think if we are honest, we were attracted and trapped because we too were a little self-aborbed and unrealistic ourself ... bird of a feather flocking together for comfort and company ... and we leave not because we are "eaten up my Maya" or "fail" but because we reject their double Maya ... once for it being what it was, twice for false re-writing of it all ... at the least for not being our own Maya/lesson in life. Perhaps even because we wanted to do better for ourselves and others.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post22 Dec 2014

Hi Friend,

I have written in other posts my view on similar questions asked by others. I don’t want to spend the time repeating it all.

IMO the experience obviously cannot be denied. But the interpretation of the experience or other phenomena found in one’s encounters with spiritual groups is very much open to debate. Difficult for outsiders to comment who have no first hand perspective and difficult for those insiders who are too close to it all, and have confirmational bias and other unconscious prejudices to overcome.

The religious experience or spiritual experience is a human experience that is found in all cultures and places throughout history.

Where some teachers, founders, gurus see themselves as part of a bigger tradition, many others founders/gurus of religious movements, small or large, seems to believe (or make others believe) in the uniqueness of their inspiration.

Not unexpectedly, they describe it and teach it in the terms of the cultural context they are from and the education/vocabulary they have. Often they say they are "the true manifestation” or ”true explanation” or the ”completion” of the older tradition they grew up in.

One must look to where the limitations are, what are the universal "truths” and what are the distinguishing or defining aspects of that movement.
Are they inclusive or exclusive, unifying or divisive?
Does what they teach and practice correlate to facts and evidence or are they asking you to suspend disbelief the way you do when you enter a fiction on film. theatre or novel (where you are not expected to take the fiction as fact but as a vehicle)?

The mental illness aspect should not be taken as being derogatory. Mental illness is a modern concept. In some societies what we’d call mentally ill are considered as "gifted” or special messengers of a deeper reality. Many gifted and famous people are bipolar or on the autism spectrum.

A true deep silence meditation of an African animist shaman is not so different to the samadhi of a sadhu or the "silent seed stage” as BKs call it (do they still teach that this is higher state than the 'love for Baba' stage anymore?).

The exploitation of believers by a a shaman is no different to the exploitation by any organisation or that chooses to interpret & sell what is an innate human ability so as to garner devotion and draw donations of money and energy to them, more than is needed for the sharing of intangibles.

It is not necessarily overtly deceptive, it is driven by desire for collective identity and belief confirmation, but that desire is in itself a corruption or contradiction of what is ”essential".

Please read around the forum and look for similar discussions. Be wary of getting caught mixing up what you want to be true with objective reality.
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ex-l

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post22 Dec 2014

One of the questions I asked myself was, "did I actually ever believe in all the 5,000 years and so on ... did I ever really believe Dadi Janki was one of the 8 top souls in the world" etc. The answer is obviously not. I really did not. So how I did I get suckered and along with it all? I think part of the answer is the literally hypnotic nature of the meditation practise and constant repetition; the social reward system that encourages one to profess faith even when one does not because one gets love from the only sources one is allowed to get love ... the Seniors and god spirit.

I wondering whether shutting down all the other 'ins and outs', human gives and takes, focuses all one's desires and, I suspect, causes delirious reactions we then interpret as Baba etc?

One thing I would like to add to PP's post above is a basic difference between religions which seek to retreat from society and those that engage with it and manipulative collective energy.

I've personally experienced loves and 'highs' from collectives of individuals a million miles away from BKism ... there's a certain feeling or excitement just from being in a group and one thing someone would have to do when considering adherence is how much that group energy is feeding them rather than any god spirit. This is not to say it is bad or wrong, just that I find the BKs' lack of spiritual acuity frustrating ... everything's just "Baba, Baba, Baba" (when it's patently obviously not), and everyone's just treated like they are in a kindergarten when it comes to questioning, thinking deeply, and answers from Seniors.

Our politeness and humility is sorely tested when what should be happening is that they are challenged robustly rather than allow to indulge in the fantasy of being holy.

I dug in to BKism because I thought there might be some esoteric spiritual teachings and practises ... but there is just not. Very quickly it just becomes all about enculting others, learning mental plugs and yuktis instead ... and shortly after that somewhere between a 7 day a week, 52 weeks a year humdrum existence ... and exhaustion.

Especially, in my opinion and experience, in small centres with people you really have nothing in common with.

Will you die if you leave? Obviously not. I am a devil as far as they are concerned and I still have not been struck by lightning. Will there be some re-adjustment? Obviously yes. Might you miss some of your old BK friends? Possibly ... but not all the inhibition and control. You'll feel great at being able to exercise your intellect again, have experiences and enjoyments.

What about you though ... how much of a BK life have you been having? How "surrendered" are you?

Friend

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post22 Dec 2014

Thank you both for your replies.

I will try to look around the forum for other opinions expressed on my questions.

Personally, many things the BKs say make sense to me re:how to live your life, like don't be attached to people, be loving, sweet, egoless, vegetarian etc, and I have met some people who genuinely care for me and not only about how much I follow Shrimat, though that too.

I have to say that compared to them, the "everyday" people seem to be lacking something. They always seem to me like they complain and just want to have fun, the lack of which is something that draws me to BK-ism.

I have admired many characteristics of BKs and I think I wouldn't admire them as much if I had met them before they became BKs. I have also found flaws in them but how could there not be any? It really doesn't matter though, because I don't care that much about the BK community's integrity but the truthfulness of the teachings.

Personally, I don't follow celibacy but I am an onion+garlic-free vegan. There was a time I would do Amrit Vela everyday and go to Murli class and do karma Yoga in the centre. It wasn't bad but that's not the point :p.

I have found the meditation quite hard for me. I only recently had an experience while reading the Murli at home: I was trying to be soul conscious for quite a big part of that day and at that time, I decided to speak to God (Baba, whatever) and then I felt something in my head that felt like it was from someone other than me and in the end of that experience I had tears in my eye(s?). That is an experience that keeps me wanting to explore the thing further even if I end up not believing we connect with God during Raja Yoga or that He speaks the Murlis.

So I guess the consensus is that there is a spirit that is powerful but not actually God? And if anyone has any opinion about how accurate the BK's' teachings are about the soul it would be much appreciated.

Lastly, do you guys think Raj Yoga can change your character for the better (more peaceful, loving etc) or not? I know other meditations can do that, I am not talking about it having an exclusive privilege.
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Mr Green

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post22 Dec 2014

Be egoless!!!!!!!!!! Good luck with that.

I always thought it was a joke when the BKs spoke about humility, they're the most arrogant people in the world. The arrogance that comes from believing your one of the chosen ones who has a direct link to the supreme being!!

The BKs don't even teach proper meditation it's just a form of self prepping to allow yourself to be mesmerised.

If Dadi or Mama had been karmateet they wouldn't have taken rebirth, the BKs just make it all up as it goes along, then when their lies don't come true they have to make up a whole load of more lies, and on it goes.
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ex-l

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post22 Dec 2014

Friend wrote:Lastly, do you guys think Raj Yoga can change your character for the better (more peaceful, loving etc) or not? I know other meditations can do that, I am not talking about it having an exclusive privilege.

Personally, I don't think there is any consensus is that "there is a spirit that is powerful but not actually God" but I'd certainly use it as a working model. Could even be spirits. Arguably, the BKs teachings actually say that ... that there is Dada and Mama and Didis and Dadis all flying around entering into BKs to give them experiences and work through them. Who knows who, what or if they are ... no one can prove it in any direction, probability wise it's all highly unlikely. Others that have passed through this way will deny and decry any spiritualistic interpretation and see all or most of it as projection.

What we do have evidence for is that these spirits, or even just archetypes, are absolutely unreliable and quixotic. They will make significant errors, they have major blind spots in their knowledge of the world, humanity ... and bizarrely religion, they will seemingly say anything ... including a lot of politically incorrect stuff which has since been censored out ... and then contradict it, or be contradicted, in the next moment. They also tolerate significant abuse and corruption within "their religion" and seem rather possessed themselves with money and property ... whilst encouraging others to live like unpaid servants with nothing.

What does all that tell you about their nature?

Here's one of the key secrets in life, "it's not what you say that counts, never mind think ... it's what someone does that defines them". And all that and worse is that the "top souls in the world" have been up to.

That's the difficult paradox.

Does it make you peaceful etc? Well, the system certainly makes you submissive and unquestioning and there is bliss in being stupid and conforming to your position within society. It's a very Indian thing and BKism is still largely an Indian (casteist) operation. Try raising the issue of corporate ethics, democratic rights and representation, and holding the leadership accountable for their errors etc.

Yes, without a doubt, many BKs really are nice, sincere people ... but what's the agenda, what's the overall great plan? if the BKs could just give up their 'Mass Annihilation' and Global Domination fantasies and settle down in their celibate detached communities to run ashrams for the world wearing and broken, and do some actual social good - no strings attached - then they would be acceptable.

But, for me, the real problem is Shankar's Drum beating away insanely in the background ... Baba, Destruction, Baba, Destruction, Baba, Destruction, Baba, Destruction, Destruction, Destruction, Destruction ... and the equally insane and unspiritual lust for a high status, gold and diamonds palaces, and ton of low brow, crass and vulgar decorations.

For me, that really never had any attraction. Why would I want a palace of gold and to be surrounded by servants all the time? It's a lower middle class Hindu fantasy, not mine. And what more is their heaven like ... did you ever hear of them speaking about 'books', knowledge, real learning? Not a chance of it. The goal was to be super rich and ignorant (buddhu), not a Buddha. Again, it is both a reflection of the caste they came from AND what they became in this life.

Not a book on their shelves, except those to sell and turn a profit from.

Lastly, being "powerful" does not always equate to being "good". For me, subtlety, sensitivity, and clarity (including honesty) are far more evidence of spiritual attainments.
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ex-l

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post22 Dec 2014

Oh, yes, and ordinary people do suck. No arguing there. But try and get out more and meet more interesting better ones whilst making yourself one.

Life is easier when you allow someone else to make all the decisions for you and fit in and conform to their vision. It can seem a lot more lonely and difficult, and unsuccessful, to head out on your own.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post23 Dec 2014

It’s true that the kind of people that you/we would consider pleasant and ”good” tend to form groups around fringe activities rather than mainstream ones.

Look at it this way; if you went to a place where there is a cross section of society, say, a motor registry or you stood on the corner of Oxford St and Edgeware Rd and you interviewed each person you could for 48 hours, you’d probably find a small but decent percentage who are the kind of people you’d get on with.

Of those you felt affinity with, if you asked them what groups or fellowships or collectives they belonged to, you’d likley find very few who belong to a church group, satsang or co-op of some sort that is belief-based. Others might be volunteers at soup kitchens, some might have no time for such things outside of work and family responsibilities, some might love reading, learning and discussions, some to give their time to helping or sharing with their neighbours and friends, some use their time practicing some art or enjoying others’ art, and so on.

If you went along with them to any of these, likely you’d feel whatever it is that group feels when they do what they do.

It is rare for there to be a group which all about feeling good and gets together to feel good! More rare is one that doesn’t want to keep itself from the public gaze but rather makes it its whole purpose of existence self-promotion, to get others to join them to sustain it. But that’s exactly what the BKs are.

What is that feelgood factor?

You said ""there is a spirit that is powerful but not actually God”. That is exactly what I thought when I went to Madhuban and sat in front of Gulzar/BapDada and took dristi for the first time, almost those exact words. That was in the days when we all had personal meetings and discussions of a few sentences to and fro. My ”personal meetings" after that eventually numbered in double digits.

But how we interpret the experience is not a binary choice - either it is God or it is not. There are many possibilities.

Consider that from a theistic view, there are many ”theistic” possibilities. The BKs think God is exclusively theirs, God supposedly establishes the BKs to be his instruments and he teaches that they are the only ones he speaks directly to in all of history, the only ones who learn, ahem, raj Yoga meditation to clear their karma and be ”purified” and all the rest of the Gyan which you seem to be vaguely acquainted with.

It's possible of course that that's 100% true and we all ex-BKs here are doomed for blowing our chances at being deities!

But if we followed anything just because it is ”possible” we’d never survive as individuals or as a species. We need to use our critical faculty and to not only test claism but also see if other explanations for our wondrous experiences are just as plausible.

What if God does establish the BKs but also inspired, e.g. the founder of the the Sufi group in the next suburb? That means at least part of the Gyan is false. It wasn’t just BKs.

What if the Mormons are right? Or what if the BKs are one of Satan’s tools to draw souls away from Christ? Wolves in sheep’s clothing? That’s just as possible. Besides, many Christians are virtuous, meditative, kind and compassionate and do a lot to help others. Some live in vegetarian, eco-aware communes and practice meditation etc.

Another early experience for me that we share is that experience from the meditation technique is of it coming from beyond oneself. That experience was another ”convincer” for me. So, let’s ask - what if the BK, ahem, raj Yoga technique stills your mind to access parts of the self that come from deeper levels of self, beyond conscious ego states so they are are then experienced as being ”other” the way characters in your dreams feel like they are not you? The way an artist or poet might feel a ”muse” inspiring them? maybe the Sufi practices open them up to their experiences in similar ways to reach ASC, and the form is determined by the form-ula?

That is, there are aspects of human psychology we are only beginning to understand, even if much progress has been made by depth psychology in understanding this kind of experience.

Some depth psychologists like to foster the ”god” narrative because they see the end justifying the means, whereas others will say it's better to understand the phenomenon for what it is and free ourselves from potentially limiting points of view. (In terms of these views, I think, if people are learning types who anticipate their own progress, they do whatever they are ready to do. Otherwise people only do what they need to do to avoid pain and feel ‘pleasure’).

I like that you said "I don't care that much about the BK community's integrity but the truthfulness of the teachings." It shows you understand there are all kinds of people found in all kinds of places and situations, and no group holds the rights on "the good guys”. Keep that attitude. Work through your questions and experiences using "truthfulness” as your touchstone. Circumspection will guide you well and, wherever you are at in understanding, it will assist you to a better place when anticipated or at least needed. Stay true to yourself rather than someone else’s self.

Although the BKs teach ”you were lost and now found”, in fact, it sounds like your journey has just begun. Children are amazed at how "grown up” teenagers seem, but when we become older we look back at our teenage years and wish we’d been a bit more grown up. We always think at each stage of life that we finally know what we didn’t before ...

Be prepared to constantly challenge what you think is true, then you can continue to grow.

Friend

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post23 Dec 2014

Thank you all! I appreciate all the responses. I'll keep exploring the BK world with a critical and open mind.

quantum

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post25 Dec 2014

Agree indeed Mr. Green ... about their false and self delluded sense of Humility!!! It really is laughable.

And the cause/effect of, comes from the mouth their "God Head/s" ... that they are only direct and chosen children of God??? ... which in itself creates the biggest Illusion in human history ... "SEPARATION"! ... These are Not the words and Consciousness of The One universal cosmic all encompassing God of All ... whilst being free to choose varying paths or not here on Earth ... we are Still all one in the same heart of the Divine energy of source of that which we all flowed forth Equally.

The teachings and beliefs of BKism of Elitism is a clear statement itself, of a cult syndrome, and Encodings to keep adherents believing and following all other false and misleading dogmas. the illusion is to keep their potential shut down and cut off even from themselves, whilst projections of unlimited potential are theirs for the taking?? ... After having found the 'Baba' ... this is both a cult methodology, and spiritualism.

BKism is nothing to do with Pure Spirituality at all, which is the main false and misleading language they use to suck outsiders in and brainwash their adherents. Instead of finding out who you really are, you actually loose who you are by decieption and stealth, slowly and subtely over time, by all of the above, + giving your power and sense of self away, and to an entity and an organisation outside of your self. When in actuality, we need to look within and meditate on our own inner self/God self within, and it is through this type of viewing and practice, that we can come to understand our oneness with God and all others, and all that is.

Thank you
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Pink Panther

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post26 Dec 2014

Friend wrote:Thank you all! I appreciate all the responses. I'll keep exploring the BK world with a critical and open mind.

Explore the world world, it is more wondrous than the BK world thinks.

clearofBK

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post26 Dec 2014

It is absolutely true Pink that the world is indeed wonderful to explore. However if someone wants to explore BK world with a critical and open mind after having gone through all opinions here, why do not you just let him be ? :-)

I get a feeling you want to try hard to keep people away from BK world assuming all of them are vulnerable and you have a good intention of "saving" them however there are smart people too who wouldn't allow negative aspects to entrap them.
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Pink Panther

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post26 Dec 2014

ClearasilBK,
That you are aware of the potential for entrapment says something in itself. My points have been about that potential.

The BK world is as much a part of the whole world as anything, but the rest of the world is not part of the BK world which segregates, separates, discriminates, denigrates the rest of the world, either directly or indirectly.

If you explore the world and come across the BK microcosm, you can look at it in context as one among many or be drawn in by its siren song, never to return to home and family whole.

clearofBK

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Re: The Truth about Life?

Post26 Dec 2014

Pink, so is true of the world. There is enough negativity in it to get entrapped. If people have the ability to see it and differentiate from positive, they would be fine anywhere. Everyone doesn't fit into the way you want them to be. It's perfectly fine for you to be expressing your opinions however beyond a boundary, I do believe you may be trying too hard to keep them away ... And people with an open mind do explore outside world too ...
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