Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post15 Feb 2015

Dear Souls,

You have made many interesting assumptions about me, but I am not going to quote them and argue.

Instead, having knocked at your door, I am going to leave you at peace with your beliefs, since you apparently so much hate what I love.

What's more? You want me to "apologize" for my beliefs! In contrast, I feel sorry for your beliefs.

What you should know is that I like to absorb only that which I need, and leave the rest. So all your concerns about certain people not being "perfect" as per our expectations, do not exist for me. I simply try to take the best from them and try to share that knowledge with others.

Happy enlightenment! On Shanti!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post15 Feb 2015

Ha. You make an embarrassing fool of yourself and instead of being humble or mature about it ... like a truly spiritual person would ... you put your tail between your legs and run.

So what are you, a BK, or just a Janki Kirpalani Bhagat?

As for the "hate" accusation, we've heard it all before ... sorry, no, we are lovers of truth. And we have higher standards of truth than the BKWSU.
awakening wrote:Well, taking into consideration your skepticism about other publications, and your opinion that teachings of the BKWSU are forged, how can you be "sure" that any other publication is not?

Their source. Seemingly you don't know how historians work.

If you doubt them, you can take them and our findings back to the BKWSU and have them verified.

"Forged" is not a word I have used. I don't know of any outright forgery of any BK documents. There have been widespread but later revisions, re-interpretations, re-writing, whitewashing and falsification - even complete philosophical u-turns - but not forgery.

No one needs to be "skeptic" about the BKs' past ... those are the facts. The question is, is all that "divine" and "enlightened"?
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post15 Feb 2015

Dear Soul,

Thank you for sharing your exotic views and letting me be part of this discussion.

I am truly enthralled by your apparent "insight":
...You make an embarrassing fool of yourself and instead of being humble or mature about it ... like a truly spiritual person would ...

However, I don't remember making any such claim about myself. Again, apparently that is your expectation, from me, for some reason.

As for:
So what are you, a BK, or just a Janki Kirpalani Bhagat?

I have already shared my beliefs in an attempt to share with you the bliss I have experienced, especially after gaining what I have from the BKWSU. Again, to emphasize, kindly refer to the last para of my previous reply in this thread.

Finally, I come across at least something that makes me feel glad for you:
... no, we are lovers of truth ...
Their source.

With reference to the above, the following is purely my imagination resulting from trying to find an explanation for your questions. Since I figure that you hold on strongly to logic and reasoning, I have a question for you:

If you are saying that they claim their source of imparted knowledge is God,
and if that were to be true,
then,
Could it also be true that God gave them the directions to abstract The Knowledge according to the time and the flow of events, in the best interest of the world drama (as judged by God)?
Or could it be true that, since God is God, he may have decided to impart The Knowledge in an already abstracted and modified form, evolving it periodically, in the best interest of the world drama?

I apologize if the word caused you concern:
"Forged"...
... re-interpretations, re-writing, whitewashing and falsification - even complete philosophical u-turns ...

But, according to my understanding, according to an online dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forge), one of the meanings is the same as what you have described and what I meant:
forge verb
forged forg·ing
transitive verb
2 : to make or imitate falsely especially with intent to defraud : counterfeit <forge a document> <forge a signature>

I would like to conclude believing that we have shared with each other the essence of our beliefs. We don't want to play a "pointing fingers" game. I will still be around in case you wish to discuss further.

If we are to see the common "rights" among many, then we must shift our focus away from the "wrongs" among them.

Happy enlightenment! Om Shanti!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post15 Feb 2015

It's difficult to get a straight answer from you. You may have gained "bliss" but it hasn't made you straightforward.
    Are you a BK who follows Shrimat by going to Amrit Vela and class every morning? How is your chart?
I am also not a soul, nor dear to you, so I'd prefer if you just addressed me as ex-l.

By "source" I meant simply the printers or library. The BKs' sprit guides are not "God".

And, no, a forgery is something different as you must know.

I am sorry but your opening comments come across as condescending or even sarcastic, and I reject any effort on your behalf to reduce the differences to a matter of subjective views. That's another typically slippery BK yukti. And as for representing the BKs revision pompously as "to abstract The Knowledge" ... what on earth does that mean?

OK, let's take an example, why did God say the world's population was 4.5 billion at Destruction and then the BKs "abstract it" to be 5 Billion, then 5.5 billion etc ... and yet now it is climbing beyond 7 billion. Don't God - the Ocean of Knowledge - and the Father of Humanity know how many children they have?
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post16 Feb 2015

Awakening wrote: If you are saying that they claim their source of imparted knowledge is God, and if that were to be true, then, Could it also be true that God gave them the directions ...


”You may have your Gods, and you may have your demons. Just remember, they are your Gods and your demons” - Tibetan saying.
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post16 Feb 2015

The thing is, the BKs do keep sound and written recordings of all of Lekhraj Kirpalani/BapDada's utterances and except for references to the failure of the 1976 Destruction date, there is no reference to correcting or re-writing his mistakes. Why would God make mistakes?

In 1977 season, he referred to the 1976 failure and twisted it to be the followers' fault. They had not made enough efforts, he said. But even those have been removed from later revisions of the same Murlis, even though they have been established as a good cop out clause to be repeated.

I was not around in 1987 to 1997 ... did he/they make any reference as to why the "50 years for Destruction, 50 years for Creation", or "50 to 60 years for Destruction" prediction failed?

Is there any record in the Murlis of BapDada saying, "look, I screwed up again, you're going to have to remove those bits because they make me look fallible and you stupid for believing them"? No, there's not.

Therefore, we should not talk about such important things theoretically and without any evidence.

I think the problem with this issue is partly cultural. To Hindus having a trickster god, a god who tricks and fools with its followers, is perfectly acceptable. It's a sort of cultural norm.

I think the truth is very simple. The source of the BKs' teachings is not god, and is not an infallible "ocean" of truth or wisdom at all, and the BKs have adopted a highly malleable model, requiring unquestioning adherence, which can continue to be re-written and revised as long as they need the money to keep flooding in as donations to live their lives of relative luxury.

They cannot admit the errors, mistakes, revisions and gross omission because to do so would be to admit their god spirit's fallibility and unreliability; and their own ignorance, immorality and corrupting nature.

Does one get spaced out and trippy from doing their hypnotic meditation, what awakening calls "bliss"?

Yes, a proportion of society does (but not all).

Does that trippy spacedoutness "prove" the BKs' god spirit is God, that they are the only true and that their religion is the highest religion ... I am afraid not. All it proves is how easy it is to dupe a proportion of society to live off their money.

My problem with awakening is their unwillingness to answer direct questions. It makes me think they are hiding something ... like, that they are not even a very good BK, e.g. attending daily class and meditation.

Now, that to me suggests they don't even believe in it all themselves ... they just enjoy the sense of spiritual superiority - the instant gurudom - BKs give them, therefore, he does not like us because we question and challenged that superiority.

To choose Christian metaphors ... that we are pointing out his house is built on sand, or feet are made of clay.
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post16 Feb 2015

Pink Panther wrote:”You may have your Gods, and you may have your demons. Just remember, they are your Gods and your demons” - Tibetan saying.

Thanks PP for sharing ...

Awakening, one thing I can say you for sure, "After leaving BKs, I have become closer to GOD".

Thanks
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post16 Feb 2015

Dear Souls,

Thank you for sharing your views.

Ex-I, I did not mean to offend you by sharing my views with you, as I was of the opinion that we can get to express our views (as long as they follow the code-of-conduct):

I am also not a soul, nor dear to you, so I'd prefer if you just addressed me as ex-l.


As you would have seen by now, I am willing to address you as you desire.

I would like to clarify that my intention has always been to address anyone and everyone who happens to read our posts (including ones participating in this topic), rather than you as an individual.

But again, this is clearly a matter of perspective: you say you are not a soul, ... now, since we don't have proof of either possibilities, this is a choice of belief that is governed by your "free will", so you are free to choose what you want to believe, just as everyone else (, including me,) should have that freedom to choose what they want to believe. Unless we agree to disagree, we cant be of help to each other.

And I have already indicated a couple of times earlier that I myself want to "part our ways in peace", as I believe that we have exchanged at least the essence of our understandings, which I believe is the purpose of such a forum.

It's difficult to get a straight answer from you.


I am afraid that the nature of complexity of topics we are discussing in this forum requires a certain degree of complexity in the answers to questions in order to be as precise, or as close to the truth, as possible.

After leaving BKs, I have become closer to GOD.


I trust your word, and hence I truly feel glad for you. The "ends" is what matters, as per my understanding - attaining that ultimate and eternal bliss. Because there are only really very few "means".

I think a lot of the differences in our views arise from one pivotal concern:

Why would God make mistakes?


I believe that such things cannot be comprehended merely by some explanation, but only by experiencing certain phenomena.

If it were so easy for most people to comprehend such concepts as God and infinity and bliss and space and time, do you think there would still have been so many distinct sets of religious, spiritual, non-religious, scientific, non-scientific and other "groups" that humans diversely select or happen to adopt one or even form a new one, resulting in different philosophies for each of these concepts? And each such distinct philosophy has its own set of "logic, reasoning, deductions and evidences". Let us not forget that such differing philosophies co-exist only because none of them has a clear winner yet in terms of proof.

I do believe that you will find your own enlightenment, in time, like everyone else, including myself.

Om Shanti!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post16 Feb 2015

Can we just have one straightforward answer from you ...

Are you a BK who follows Shrimat by going to Amrit Vela and morning class every day ... how is your chart?

How much of a BK are you really?

I am thinking that you're too full of Bhakti to be a real BK.

If you can answer, I'll tell you why I ask.

Thank you.
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post17 Feb 2015

God is speaking to me. He says, "My son, this Awakening dude, he seems to be of good intention. He wants to see only the good in people and lacks experience in the ways of deception and delusion, whether intentional or not. Do not judge him harshly at this point in time, he seems intelligent and resilient enough to encounter the BKs then be able to move on to better things eventually, just as you did".

"Unfortunately my son, not all manage to do that, as you know, for you have seen many BKs meet untimely deaths, partly due to their or others’ sincere but inadequate comprehensions resulting in existential crises or psycho-somatic incapacity. And it is this reality, that not everyone reacts the same way, that he will, with time, become aware of."

"Your half-brother Awakening will awaken to the fact that those who are best at selling deceit are so good at it because they have convinced themselves first, and now, egoistically, cannot admit to themselves that they made an error. Some may not believe it so sincerely themselves but they’re still good at convincing others because they've’ve learnt how to wrap the big self-deception in other truths; especially universal truths and motherhood statements.

"Why would they do this my son? To sustain their own positions and justify their own decisions. That’s easier".
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post17 Feb 2015

Dear Souls,

Let me emphasize that this discussion has been a satisfying chapter of my life. Honestly, no sarcasm.

And I wish to ensure it be known that I am reading, comprehending (as best as I can) and respecting your views, and I trust that my views will be treated similarly, so that we can exchange ideas and views and insights and still have the freedom to choose what we want to believe. I believe that you believe that people can co-exist in harmony and comfort even with considerable differences and conflicts in their incorporeal philosophies, as all religions and incorporeal philosophies have more than a few common elements.

Ex-I: For the questions below (and the others that follow), I've already attempted to share my beliefs with you, while simultaneously attempting to understand yours:
Ex-I wrote:Can we just have one straightforward answer from you ...

Are you a BK who follows Shrimat by going to Amrit Vela and morning class every day ... how is your chart?

However, I have gladly abstracted them below, so as to present you as straight an answer as I possibly can (if you will, these are purely my beliefs and as such may or may not be common among others):

I am a soul who likes to learn and explore what I feel I should (, as there are just too many things to cover in one life), and don't like to claim myself to be a member of any organization unless I am following its teachings (as per what I have understood at that moment) completely and wholeheartedly. And as I have mentioned before, I am not yet a complete follower of the teachings of the BKWSU (my understanding, as any "teaching" can have multiple "understandings"). Hence I do not call myself a "BK". However, I do believe completely in what I have learnt at the BKWSU (as there are obviously several sets of "learnings").

As for "Bhakti", I gave that up since quite some time now. However, you should also understand that I absolutely don't mind accompanying someone, when they like me to, on their "Bhakti marg". In fact, I see a "different view" when I accompany them and serves me as a satisfying "field trip" of some of the "chapters" I studied at the BKWSU.

As for the "chart", it does not exist for me. Even though I know the guidelines and understand their significance, like I said, I am not a complete "follower" yet.

What I do follow, is attempt to keep a constant connection with (my)self and God, throughout the day, everyday. The results of these attempts make a mixed bag. The benefits I experience however, whenever I am successful, are more than considerable. Again, I would like to emphasize that I am afraid that the only real way to know for sure what these benefits are and what it feels like, is to experience such a phenomenon for yourself. I do believe there are several (across all "categories" of humans) who have had, and keep having, such experiences.

Pink Panther: thank you for sharing your experience, views and well-wishes.

I would like to let you know that I do understand and respect the views you have presented and trust that this is reciprocated by you. If this is true, then I shall feel satisfied about the conversation between us in particular.

Happy enlightenment! Om Shanti!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post17 Feb 2015

Pink Panther wrote:God is speaking to me. He says, "My son, this Awakening dude, he seems to be of good intention. He wants to see only the good in people and lacks experience in the ways of deception and delusion, whether intentional or not. Do not judge him harshly at this point in time ...

That's fair enough I can accept that.

Awakening, sorry to be a little tough with you on these matter but there is something very serious at stake here ... namely your life.

This is not the BKWSU so you can speak freely and you do not have to conform to their way of speaking, however almost all of us have been through the BKWSU, at an important period of its development and as full members and seen it from the inside. Therefore, when I see obvious "BKism" arise in your posts ... and by that I mean the language, marketing talk or 'yuktis' they use ... or when I read you telling us we don't know what we are talking about, I react strongly.

I can tell you *exactly* what the BKs really think of someone who has been on their fringes for 15 years and not surrendered or accepted The Knowledge 100% - and what they consider their fortune would be. You would be offended by it and probably not want to believe me.

You're Indian, right? You've grown up in a largely pluralistic society, tolerant of other beliefs, e.g. "many paths to God" etc. In many ways, the BKs present themselves as this to outsiders but it does not represent their core believes or attitudes. In many ways, the BKs' real beliefs are almost directly contradictory and not all supported by Hinduism ... a religion they see as "impure and degraded". In many ways, the BKs are more like an Islam or fundamentalist Christians believing that they and only they have the truth, are the way to liberation; and that heaven on earth is reserved to them alone.

Those are facts, not opinions.

For example, those holy men you mention, they consider to be spiritually lowly, first birth souls who have now completely degraded. Souls who might only take 20, 30 or even 2 or 3 births where as they and only take the full compliment of 84 births. According to the BKs' real teachings, those holy men got their teachings from the BKs last kalpna, likely never had a direction connection with God - and certainly not during their births in the recent past, and never gained liberation or enlightenment.

Again, facts of BK belief ... Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, Sankaracharya etc all the same. No other religion has a direct connection with God, none of their leaders or followers has gained enlightenment or liberation. All must return to the BKs to re-learn their religion now.

Rather than tell us we don't know Brahma Kumarism, it would be better to ask us what Brahma Kumaris really think. We can take you directly to the inner teachings without you having to spend months or even years working your way through the facade to get to them.

But a question arises in my mind ... why, if you are not a full BK, are you so defensive of them?

I am guessing you were a child or teenager when you first encountered them and so, therefore, some family member must have been involved, is that so? Are you being defensive for their sake?

Are they full BKs, or just "BK contact souls"?

Perhaps they too do not know the whole truth about the BKs and their beliefs? Certainly if they are wealthy, the BKs will be keeping them close and giving them preferential treatment, part of which will be not challenging their own beliefs ... in essence, flattering them to gain their social and financial support.

Have you done what used to be called "the 7 Days Course", that is, taken the full teachings and started listening to the Murlis? Have you been to any morning classes?

15 years is a long time to be undecided about the truth of BKism ... do you want me to tell you the truth of what the BKs will think of you?
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post18 Feb 2015

One thing more, please...

Can the Master Almighty Authority, Master Trikaldarshi BKs give those precious years back to those, who stupidly believed them because they told that BKs are connected to GOD, the chosen ones, their words are GOD’s words and if you do not believe them or do not follow them or do not obey them you will be doomed to severe punishment in Destruction which is round the corner (year 2000) at that time. Not to marry, not to build up a career as it is all going in the dust in coming 2-3 years?

There is much more to get answers to.

BKs simply shut the mouths and completely discourage questioning them by adopting the cheapest means of insulting the questioners.
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post18 Feb 2015

Count your blessings Awakening that you have only dipped your toe in the warmest (public) part of the BK pond.

because.parmeshwar’s point makes an interesting juxtaposition to Awakening’s ecumenical view that the BKs aren't a problem or dangerous in any way because he hasn’t been drawn all the way in and from where he stands, they’re just dandy.

What do you say Awakening to someone like b.parmeshwar who did dive all the way in and fully believed everything that was taught and which diverted his life in ways he is now sure were not only 'not beneficial' but downright bad for him?

Is it the fault of the follower that he chose to believe what he was asked to believe as part of the practice, that for every inch given over to the BKs, another ten are then asked?
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post18 Feb 2015

Dear Souls,

Thank you for sharing your views.

I wish to clarify what I understand by, and therefore also mean by, the word "opinion" or "view":

An opinion is a possibility among several possibilities (for any topic). Until such time when there exists a proof, asserting one such particular possibility's accuracy/correctness and thus concluding that one to be the "reality", and concluding others as mere "potential possibilities of the past", each of these possibilities is an opinion. Since I believe that everyone (including me, obviously), is imperfect (expect only God), anyone's opinion could be incorrect (or partially incorrect). Thus, any of the possibilities can turn out to be reality, as otherwise that possibility would not have any considerable believers or have survived for any considerable period.

An opinion (about something) is a result of one's assimilation of a certain combination of facts, figures, observations, experiences, comprehension, reasoning and deductions. Such assimilation may happen at a conscious and/or at a sub-conscious level.

Also, as per my understanding, Pink Panther's example of the Tibetan saying as well as other opinions by Pink Panther, suggest that he agrees with my belief that any expression from any human is an opinion (until the time there exists such a proof).
Awakening, sorry to be a little tough with you...

ex-I: you don't need to ... I do understand that you (and others) have the views that you have, because of certain observations you made and/or certain experiences you had. I believe that you are intelligent beings.

And I am OK with this. I agree to disagree. Does it mean that I don't care what you think? Before you make any other assumption about me, I wish to let you know that one of my central beliefs is that one day, everyone, including me, will know the truth. When that happens, all opinions will cease to exist (as there will be no need for them), and will thus cease to matter. I also understand that I may be one among those who discover in the end that I did not have the right/accurate view. That is why I am constantly researching, observing, learning and evaluating myself. I believe that others who do these, do them for the same reason too.
...when I read you telling us we don't know what we are talking about, I react strongly.

Don't mind, but I have genuinely been unable to find an expression that I used, that would lead you to form such a notion. I have no intention, nor had any, to judge anyone. Of course, I have provided my views and opinions and responses candidly, while simultaneously trying to ensure that my expressions may not cause one to think that I despise any view. What I have said, is, what you are expressing are your views, and what I am expressing are my views. Much like the Tibetan saying.

I would like to further clarify that I understand that any of these views (about the topics we are discussing) can turn out to be the reality. I am fine with "anyone's God" being "right". Of course, I would like to discover that I am among the ones who have the right view. I believe everyone would like to discover the same. Some people call it the "end-time revelation", some call it "judgement day", among other words and phrases. Again, these are also views, as there is no proof that something like this will ever happen at all!
You would be offended by it and probably not want to believe me.
...lacks experience in the ways of deception and delusion,...

I wish to let you know that I believe that I, too, do get my dose of deception and delusion. There are people everywhere who are victimized by such vices and try to spread them. So yes, I think I keep getting my share now and then.

Through these years, I have (personally) known few people who attended daily class for years and then one day stopped altogether. I also know people who stopped and then started again. And a few who keep appearing and disappearing (for me, it's not so much about the physical presence in the class itself, more about the beliefs and views that one carries). And of course, there are also a few who have stuck on pretty strongly since they joined. Now, please keep in mind that most of these people that I have mentioned, are, in my opinion, highly intelligent people (mostly teachers/professors and a scientist), yet they all seemed to me as having different views. Some of the elements of the views were common, yes, but so many others were so different. I have met several of them when we did not have common views and found their reasoning comprehensible. The differences in our views, though, did not seem to affect our inter-personal relationships. This is what matters to me. Our views should not become obstacles in our relationships.
... you can speak freely ...

Thank you. I have not been restraining myself. What I meant from following the code is this website's forum's regulations. Since I agreed to abide by them when I joined, I meant that I try to ensure that I do.
... some family member must have been involved, is that so? Are you being defensive for their sake?
Have you done what used to be called "the 7 Days Course", that is, taken the full teachings and started listening to the Murlis?

I was the first in my family to know about the BKWSU. I have always been inclined to learn about things beyond the "obvious". Later, my parents and grandma got introduced. Then my siblings. In my opinion, the only ones remaining from my family to continue to "believe" completely in the teachings (as we have learnt) are me and my mom. However, all these differences have had no affect in the relationship between any of us. Over the years, our views may have changed, but our relationships have only become stronger.

Yes, I have undergone the "7 days course" several times in several places (both offline and online) over these years. I have even delivered this course a couple of times. I also continuously research on and develop my views.
why, if you are not a full BK, are you so defensive of them?

It is much after I learnt what I learnt at the BKWSU, that I was convinced that there is such a thing as "the ultimate truth", which may be visualized as a nutshell, compressing of all possible knowledge (known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns). Call it a "capsule" if you like. Please note that this was a result of my own view (interpretations of the learnings I had gathered so far in my life), not something that I heard from some person or picked up elsewhere. Of course, this is a concept that other people may also incidentally have with them, so I am not saying this is a new concept, just that no-one told me about this and I concluded this for myself.

Before this time, I had no knowledge of this capsule and thus no sight of it. Even after taking in knowledge from the BKWSU, I did not have sight of this capsule for several years, until only quite recently. The reason for this, I realized, was that I was simply only "believing" in the concepts without practicing any significant portion. When I did follow some significant portion, I could see and feel the power of such a capsule. But this does not mean that I have the capsule. Far from it. But I am glad that I have sight of it now and if I can put in more effort I can get closer.
... do you want me to tell you the truth of what the BKs will think of you?

I don't believe this is necessary, but if you do, then please feel free.
What do you say Awakening to someone like b.parmeshwar who did dive all the way in and fully believed everything that was taught and which diverted his life in ways he is now sure were not only 'not beneficial' but downright bad for him?

I believe that if a view causes degradation of values and life in general, it should be discarded as soon as that realization takes place.

I think this is all I wish to express at this time.

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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