Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

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Pink Panther

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post20 Feb 2015

Awakening, Sorry to say this but - you are an arrogant little number.

I could write in one or two sentences some basic ”introduction” of God as believed by the BKs, as could any true and honest BK who’s not playing games. "Ek Shiv Baba he, Jyoti bindu swaroop, Gyan Ki Sakar, shakti ki Sakar, Shanti ki Sakar...” etc, then go on to say what god’s role is and isn’t , and so on.

Many teachers in many fields say what Sakar Baba has said also in the Murli, if you cannot explain something clearly and in language people understand, you yourself have not fully comprehended it. Are you afraid to admit that, or is something else going on here you won't admit?

You say you agree with whatever BKs say about God, without clarifying what your definition is that is in agreement.
We had a politician here asked if he agreed with his Prime Minister’ s statement earlier in the day on a controversial issue. He replied "I haven’t heard what was said, but I agree fully with my leader” and when the interviewer picked him up on agreeing with a statement he’d never heard, the politician just repeated that he was sure it was agreeable and accurate. When asked what he thought of the subject the PM had commented on, seeing a potential trap, he said ”I am sure my thoughts are exactly aligned with what the PM said”. "You respond to my simple question like that politician - party loyalty and appearances of unity are more important than common sense, truth, sincerity or personal integrity. Is this what the BKs have inspired you to be like? (Short answer, we all know, is Yes - because we too were like that as BKs once, on our own ways).
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post20 Feb 2015

because.parmeshwar, Pink Panther and ex-I: in my humble opinion, you have a right to your own opinions. Though you have formed numerous assumptions about me, I wish to remind you that they are your assumptions, and therefore I don't mind at all.

As for your "simple" questions, I am afraid I don't have such simple answers. I have already explained why and I think it is pointless to be over-redundant, especially for seemingly (as I see it, and no sarcasm) intelligent people like yourself.


ex-I: you ask why I am not a complete follower when I claim to be a complete believer.

Lets see. First, I hope I have made it clear as to which "version" of the BKWSU knowledge I was taught, so that you have a fair idea of my beliefs. Just in case it is still unclear, it is the same version that appears to the public, and the only one that I am aware of being taught officially by authorized persons, such as on the official website and tons of other official online material available, such as documents and videos. Though I attend classes irregularly, I ensure that I am updated by regularly following such online material.

Now, let me further clarify that it is not that I do not want to become a complete follower, just that I am a human being (soul), and have taken this particular birth in a time when all vices are at their peaks. Experience has taught me that my inner "demons" are not to be under-estimated. I am aware of people who do not follow this official version of the teachings 100%, but claim to be a BK! Hence I say, try as I do, I have not yet succeeded in following 100% of the teachings.

The day I am able to do so, which I believe I will with the continued help of God, I will be able to claim myself as being at least as close to the "ideal" state as I possibly can. There are people who have reached this stage. But I do not confuse such a person with God. Only God is perfect.

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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Pink Panther

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

Let me start by apologising for my honest opinion which may have come across harshly. You yourself may not be arrogant, but your responses definitely come across that way. Avoidance and redirection and obfuscation.

Not answering straightforward questions with a straightforward answer is not respectful, therefore ‘arrogant’.
Awakening wrote: Only God is perfect.

A straightforward statement indeed. But here we are again.

What is a perfect God? - Is the BK God perfect?

You have said indirectly, and in many more words, that you agree with the BK view of God as you have been taught it. Therefore, that means your answer to my question "Is the BK God perfect?” must be ”Yes”.

Have I assumed correctly?

Yet we have catalogued on this forum many facts (factum : a thing done, or in BK jargon, now fixed in drama).

These facts reveal a being that challenges my definition of what ”perfect” means.

So I ask again, what is your definition of "a perfect God"?
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

awakening wrote:First, I hope I have made it clear as to which "version" of the BKWSU knowledge I was taught

What you've made clear is that you don't know and get what BKWSU knowledge is.

That's not an "opinion", that's a fact.

You're confused between your own theories of what spiritual knowledge and spirituality is, and what the BKs are and teach.

You're like some who has sat looking at the outside of a bottle of wine for 15 years, who thinks they now know everything about it from the advertising on the label; instead of some who has opened the bottle and drunk deeply from it.

You're mistaking the clever, attractive advertising, for the ingredients list ... and believe that the advertising and publicity is The Knowledge.

I am speaking as someone who has advertised and publicised for the BKs ... not just drunk the wine but even been part of the making of it (I was a member of the Murli production team and so know them very well).

Your beliefs are not bad, they are just not BK.

You talk about "classes", but avoid answering re "Morning Class". There is a big difference.

Evening class, retreats, Self Management Leadership course, "Murli essences" etc are just watered down and whitewashed PR ... publicity ... not the real teachings.

Please start to understand and accept this.

How do I know this? I was a small cog in the machine, saw how it evolved and continued to study it. I was a teacher.

I emptied the bottle right down almost to the bottom, and I found some very nasty things inside it.
awakening wrote:Now, let me further clarify that it is not that I do not want to become a complete follower ... I am aware of people who do not follow this official version of the teachings 100%, but claim to be a BK!

Then, strictly speaking from a BK point of view, you are a "Bhagat soul" ... a worshipper of the BKs. A Copper Aged soul.

Those people who do not follow this official version of the teachings but claim to be a BK may well claim to be ... but they are. They are "donkey souls" at best, "traitor souls" at worst (e.g. if they continue to "drink poison").

Obviously associating with the BKs feeds their ego in some way ... but it does not make them BKs. At best, to the BKs, they are pitied ... at worse, they are just used as ATMs. Believe me, I have been inside, you have not.
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

ex-I wrote:... at worse, they are just used as ATMs. Believe me,

Wow, what a metaphor.

And for some reason the ATMs are not able to deliver, they harshly beat their toe to the bottom of the machine.
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quantum

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

Hahaha ... very funny, but sadly true. BKism is a multi millions rupees corporation which trades in people for 'products & services'.

because.parmeshwar, ATMs is the modern version for 'cash cows' ... lol. They love big fat cash cows, regardless if they become BKs or not ... rivers of milk is great catch to them, then when cow dries up, toss away ... no further use required.
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

Pink Panther,
Not answering straightforward questions with a straightforward answer is not respectful, therefore ‘arrogant’.

Even in case where a straightforward, simple or short answer may not allow one (imperfect human) to express oneself honestly and fully?
What is a perfect God?

Beyond the literal meaning of the words, which in my opinion are pretty sufficiently descriptive, "a perfect God" cannot be comprehended truly and completely by any human, as to do this, the human must also be perfect. If somehow one attains "perfection" and does understand God truly and fully, the one will be unable to ensure that everyone else gets the same level of comprehension, as really no human is perfect, at least in these times.

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

What percentage of "perfect" are you, awakening ... and, therefore, how perfect is your understanding?

90% ... 80% ... 60% ... 40% ... 3% ... 2% ... 1%? Please put a figure on it?

And what percent are we by comparison?
awakening wrote:... as really no human is perfect, at least in these times ...

According to BK, Lekhraj Kirpalani and Om Radhe are "perfect" - and the most perfect of all humans - and some of the Dadis are almost so (karmateet, 'one of the 8' etc) which is such a big joke so as to make any rational person reject the BKs fantasy.

Are you ready to move beyond the point of believing any one view is equal to an other, or accusing us of being wrong or uninformed?

When I studied daily at 6am, under Janki Kirpalani, the entire class could fit into one room of a domestic class and they did not even own - never mind *need* - amplifiers (and Pink Panther is my "senior" - ha!).

I've listened to her joke about how they take everything from people ... "At first we say, 'everything is free', and then we (Baba) take everything!" ... and seen how they exploit naive Hindus who think the BKs are holy people for what ever they can get ... if it is money, then cash; if it is not cash, then goods like food, furniture, cars, property; if it is not goods, then services like building, repairs, printing; if not services, then even their children (daughters) as unpaid servants.

And what they do with it all is social climbing ... raising their own status in society.

Hence they target and attract other people like them, e.g. upwardly mobile middle class Indians, and materially successful Sindhis who like the Westernised Hinduism-Lite the BKs sell. A simplified Hinduism stripped of traditional caste structures and replaced with one they can pretend to be the Brahmin top knot ... and infused with esoteric "New Age" philosophy and aesthetics Western BKs added to the religion. And, laughably, even "corporate business" style in recent years.

How do I know?

I was one of the early Western BKs who struggled with the ugly, bigoted, backward inner circle (including Janki Kirpalani) and attempted, as did many others, to reform and improve at least their public image.

This is why I smile when someone comes along who did not even "join" the BKs until after 2000, who has not even properly joined after 15 years of association, who has never really lived the life ... and yet is sure in their mind I am so wrong that I have probably never met Janki Kirpalani and suggests that their "opinion" is equal - actually superior - to mine.

Do you know what the god of the BKs calls temples who carry out 'weddings', Awakening? He calls them "brothels" and "slaughter houses" in the full and original Sakar Murlis.

Do you ever worked in the "brothel" or "slaughter house" industry?

Are you willing to accept and admit that you might not have actually been exposed to the inner teachings, disciplines and activities of the BKs yet?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

If I defined God as ”perfect” then I came across a personality claiming to be God, I would understand ”a perfect God" to mean the following:
    When God says something is so, it is actually true and factual.
    When God says something will eventuate in a particular way at a particular time, it does.
    When God claims to be a Father/Mother of all souls, he’d not mistake how many ”children” s/he has, nor omit a quarter of them from his reckoning.
    When God speaks of the History & Geography of the world, he’d not make fundamental errors, discard logic, evidence and physics.
    When God speaks it would be in a way that takes people beyond not only an Indo-centric view, but even beyond an anthropocentric view.
    When God speaks, he wouldn’t need to have his words regularly edited or revised later due to proven inaccuracies or lack of relevance.

Needless to say I could go on. And needless to say, the BK God does not fulfill even one of the points listed.

if I was a ”seeker after truth” and understood that there’d likely be charlatans I’d encounter, I’d be wary. I’d have a touchstone for how much benefit of doubt I’d allow for my ”imperfect”understanding rather than risk complete gullibility.

I would do my best not to make the mistake of being taken advantage of by a charlatan, or even a sincerely deluded charismatic, by always assuming any incongruities are always due to my inability to comprehend a perfect God.

A fool and his money/time/energy are soon parted
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clearofBK

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

PP, what you have defined is essentially to prove BK God to be an "imperfect God" but not an absolute definition of a "Perfect God".

Every religion, including BKs, have their notion of God which may well be all false and just an imposed belief system.

Another dimension of this, keeping BKism aside, would be to understand if there was indeed a "Perfect" God, how do you view God ? Is there one you believe in? If there is one, what is the way to connect with that entity? What is his role etc?

Any thoughts?
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

clearofbk wrote:Every religion, including BKs,...

ClearofBK, Is BK a religion?

The BKism largely propagate that their’s is not a religion but they say It is an “Art of Living” which is beyond Religion.
... have their notion of God which may well be all false and just an imposed belief system.

NO, they do not have any 'notion' of GOD. What they believe is that their god IS "GOD". The supreme and the Father of all souls irrespective to any religion.
BKWSU wrote:Is Brahma Baba a God ? Who is God?

He was not God. But he became important as a medium to make us meet our long lost and now found Father of all Souls - The God. His body became a tool in which God descended down to bring World Transformation.

Seems that you still are UNCLEAR about BKism.
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post21 Feb 2015

clearofBK wrote:Every religion ...

Except Buddhism, and animistic religions (spirits and forces of nature) and pantheistic religions (which believe in many gods) to name a few.
... have their notion of God

May be, but none other claim to have God sitting on a stage in front of them dressed in a sari, and wearing a new bra and women's panties (fact - the BK God is a cross-dresser) ... and yet don't stop to pull him up and ask him to explain himself, his errors and substantiate his claims.

If you were following that line of thought, I think you would need to separate those religions who believe in a personal god, and monists who believe a non-personal god, e.g. Brahm etc.

The two schools are too far apart to compare.

BKs have a habit of being very vague about this in public and disguising their true beliefs in order to sucker as many people from as many religions as they can. They essentially deceive others and lead them on to thinking the BK god spirit is their God, even borrowing their guru's image and language, e.g. Guru Nanak and "the Light" ... even when their beliefs are absolutely contradictory.

BKs have a coded language with an instant translation going on in their head so when, e.g. when a Sikh says "God is the light of all light", the BKs think, "very good, ery good, that means our Baba is the light of all light (... the poor, ignorant, deluded Sirdar just doesn't know it yet)". They are not very sincere and honest, especially in multi-faith environments.

They act like a secret service, or mafia sneaking around in disguise. Only the BKs have true knowledge and a direct relationship, they say. EVERYONE ELSE is "stumbling in darkness" - factual quote.
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post22 Feb 2015

ClearOf wrote: PP, what you have defined is essentially to prove BK God to be an "imperfect God" but not an absolute definition of a "Perfect God".

No, I have not supplied an absolute definition of a perfect God, I identified what I beleive to be characteristics 'The' highest on high supreme soul God would display, if he were ”perfect”.

I’d say that, just like basic ethics, where nearly all people & societies innately know that stealing, violence, murder etc is wrong and therefore it's the rule, with very few pragmatic exceptions ”excusing” these activities (self-defence, war, deprivation), so too there is a (to borrow your term) a ”notion” of a perfect "personal” God most would agree with, (personal god: a notion of a supreme God-being, a supreme God-person, rather than a God-principle).

Most would agree to common characteristics of such a perfect God quite readily; even if they argued about omnipresence or about how God does what he does, most would readily agree with such a ”perfect” God being "all-knowing” and not One that makes mistakes or errors of fact.

Given that the BK God himself clearly states ‘Knowledge' is his primary quality and that his main function is to relate this knowledge to humanity to establish the basis of their relationship to him, it is then imperative to judge him by the standards he sets himself. Trilokinath, trinetri, Trikaldarshi.

”ShivBaba" himself states he comes to relate The Knowledge of soul, Supreme Soul and the history & geography of the world i.e. The Cycle of time. He could teach soul (indeed, Murli says its the main lesson) and Supreme Soul (necessary to establish relationship) only. He could get away with this, tell everyone to forget everything else and keep it simple, for these are neither completely provable nor completely disprovable.

But with true guru egoistic overreach, he can’t help but reinterpret vedanta cosmology and karma theory. Why egoistic? Because ”I am soul” or ”I am God” or any ”I am...” is a statement of ‘ego” (‘εγο' is just the Greek word for ”I”) and any such ego assertion of what ”I am" is conversely defined by what ”I am not” .

So where other practices and traditions seek / practice unity and wholistic integration of all abstracted aspects of life being & becoming, e.g. the tangibles and intangibles of existence like nature, body, emotions, mental activity, biology etc, the vedantins and brahmanic religions seek to divide (dualism) and assert the abstractions have ”own-being”.

This becomes endlessly speculative, philosophical debate (of which I am happy to engage in at the appropriate times) - and a BK could happily go along claiming "I am a soul and I know that because God told me, and it’s God I connect to when I meditate” with any disagreement being built on nothing but always disputable opinions and debating points.

But the hubristic claims to be the supreme and omniscient God are betrayed by the regular, observably false statements beyond lesson 2, i.e. Cycle, Tree. These must be deal breakers for anyone who places reason and proof higher than blind faith.

Before the obscurantists come to argue the limitations of science etc - let me remind them that 'God himself’ clearly states in the Avyakt Murlis that he does not teach mathematics or the phsycial sciences because humans are already on top of all that, his job is to explain knowledge on the things NOT of the physical world. (Was this said in Avyakt Murlis because the lesson had been learnt from the errors in the Sakar Murlis. Surely he has been "hoisted on his own petard" there!).
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aham brahmashmi

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post22 Feb 2015

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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post22 Feb 2015

aham brahmashmi wrote:A nice book ...

I only scanned it quickly but it seems like fairly classical spiritualism.

Funnily enough, BKism refutes and denies all talk of other worlds or realms ... however, conversely, BKism could fit into the spiritualist world view, e.g. Lekhraj Kirpalani got it all wrong and the Golden Age he envisaged is not on earth but another realm like the Vaikunth his visions were originally inspired by.

Having said that, I am not a believer (nor a denier) ... I've just never found any spirit medium to be consistently reliable.

BTW ... which religion is this? And what would you agree with and disagree with, awakening
A ... believes in One God, Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, Creator and Provider.

God has no Father nor mother, no sons nor daughters. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered. None equal to Him. He is God of all mankind, not of a special tribe or race.

God is High and Supreme but He is very near to the pious thoughtful believers; He answers their prayers and helps them. He loves the people who love Him and forgives their sins. He gives them peace, happiness, knowledge and success.

God is the Loving and the Provider, the Generous and the Benevolent, the Rich and the Independent, the Forgiving and the Clement, the Patient and the Appreciative, the Unique and the Protector, the Judge and the Peace.

God does not need anything from us, because he is Needless and Independent.

God asks us to know Him, to love Him and to enforce His Law for our own benefit and our own good.

God is Wise, Just and Loving and whatever He does must have a good motive, although we may fail sometimes to understand it fully.

A ... believes in all scriptures and revelations of God, as they were complete and in their original versions.
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