Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post23 Feb 2015

ex-I,
ex-I wrote:What percentage of "perfect" are you, awakening ... and, therefore, how perfect is your understanding?

90% ... 80% ... 60% ... 40% ... 3% ... 2% ... 1%? Please put a figure on it?

And what percent are we by comparison?

There is a small problem I face with this: for one to "measure" the percentage of perfection one possesses at any given time, I believe that one must know exactly how to read off the "scale" of perfection!

One way to do this could be by using a "benchmark", e.g., "God" could represent 100% perfection. In order to read the measurement, one needs to know exactly what it is like to be "God". This is the whole problem in this endeavor, I believe. Logically, if the boundaries are not set right on the scale, any reading is likely to be erroneous. Moreover, even if such a reading is possible, I believe that it would be for that individual only, kind of like "each having their own bio-metric readers".

Hence, I am afraid I am unable to answer that.
Believe me, I have been inside, you have not.

I do not doubt your (and others') experiences with the BKWSU. I trust you on that. All I am thinking, and thus sharing with you, is: could all these experiences have a different meaning? Maybe if we discard the "BKism" and stick to pure reasoning and logic of the whole deal? Maybe if we go beyond just the literal meanings of the words? I am not asking you these questions and so you do not have to reply to these questions. I intend these to be more introvert. Also, I have already presented some of my thoughts about these questions. However, this does not mean that I would not want you to share your thoughts on these questions if you would want to (so that it is needless to mention about how no one can change anyone else).

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post23 Feb 2015

awakening wrote:There is a small problem I face with this ...

You must be a geek to answer like that ... your response lacks the scientific method some dealing with materials would use (propose, test ... start rough, then refine).

I don't mean "geek" disrespectfully, I've said much the same myself - the BKs need a 'yoga-o-meter" to prove *any* of them are "connected" at all ... and to the same thing/state/being. Part of the problem with their path is that there is no objective verifiable state nor way to measure one. It's all based on self-referncing notion or whim, e.g. "I am perfect because I say I am", "Baba is God and completely perfect because he says he is" ... even when he is demonstrably wrong or illogical.

However, yet again you obfuscate rather than give a straight answer - so I think we have to accept that you've developed a bad sanskar there - and, yet again, I feel you betray your lack of insider experiences with BKism.

Intuiting 'degrees of perfectio'n etc is the stuff BK daily charts are made of ... and, as a BK, you are meant to be keeping one.

If I had been asked to approximate your level of perfection - given the late date in the Kalpa and what you've said about your level of darna - I'd have put it down in the low single figure percentages ... which, according to BKism, will cloud your mind and intellect greatly.

Does that sound unfair?

I, of course, am 100% perefect and a member of the top 8 souls in the universe ... purely on the basis of 'because I say so'. :shock: That's just the way BKism works.

What percentage of "perfection" do you think Janki Kirpalani is? And what percentage of "perfection" do you think Lekhraj Kirpalani was when he died?

The big joke is, even when Baba is wrong the vain and conceited BK bigots cannot bring themselves to admit it, and instead they say stuff like, "oh, Baba was not wrong ... he was just testing us!".

Do you believe that? Have you managed how to square how a "perfect god" can be eternally perfect and imperfect at the same time?

If god must be eternally perfect - and he cannot be anything else - then the BK god spirit cannot be him.
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post23 Feb 2015

ex-I: though maybe after a long time, I am glad that despite our differences, and having acknowledged this, we are able to have a spirited dialogue.
If I had been asked to approximate your level of perfection - given the late date in the Kalpa and what you've said about your level of darna - I'd have put it down in the low single figure percentages ...

Thank you for the valuable assessment! :p

I believe everything has a purpose. We may not know that purpose. We may speculate. But, I believe, it does exist.
...so I think we have to accept that you've developed a bad sanskar there ... Does that sound unfair?

Not at all. I much willing agree it is a fact that I have more than one bad sanskar, as of the moment at least.

In BK language, I think I am classified as a "Kshatriya" (maybe not a complete one), since I consider myself to be aware of my strengths and weaknesses (maybe not completely yet) and am constantly at war with my inner demons, as per my understanding of the definition provided by the org.
... and, as a BK, you are meant to be ...

I do not consider myself as a BK, yet. And I have attempted to explain, to the best of my ability, why. I am sure you will honor that. :)
What percentage of "perfection" do you think Janki Kirpalani is? And what percentage of "perfection" do you think Lekhraj Kirpalani was when he died?

I do not consider myself as possessing the capability to judge the perfection level of any soul other than myself, let alone Dadiji and Dadaji. Literature that addresses this are available for all, from which we know, hence I do not feel the need to do this myself. Of course, this is a matter of belief and is not obligatory.

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post23 Feb 2015

Do you believe them when they claim Lekhraj Kirpalani to have been 100% perfect and the number 1 soul and Janki to be one of the top 8 and nearly perfect?

It's a general question, please just answer based on probability.

The only "differences" we have is that, a) I am more objectively right :D, and b) you are looking to be accepted by and to fit in with the BKs more ... whilst keeping one foot secure and rooted in mainstream Hindu culture, i.e. presenting a pluralistic attitude (all paths are equal and lead to God etc) that is perfectly benign but your own, not the BKs'.

I am thinking your balancing act is is quite personal at its nature, and it's how you negotiate differences in your family, e.g. balancing, supporting and defending your mother against non-BK adhering members.

How much of a BK is she really? Does she go to Morning Class and do Amrit Vela?

Or, like other women of a certain age, is she just using the BK to get her husband off her back?

Honestly, going to Morning Class and doing Amrit Vela is not that hard. It does not take 15 years to work up to. I just think you don't really believe.

Perhaps you are just conforming to a degree to keep your mom happy?

But, trust me, your views are *not* BK.

What about marriage etc? Are you going to get married and have a family? Are you having sexual-emotional relationships?
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

I do not consider myself as a BK, yet.

A BK is one who accepts that God Shiva is teaching through Brahma a.k.a. Lekhraj originally and later through Gulzar.

It doesn't matter how much you actually follow disciplines or routines, but you believe you ”should” be because it’s ”sri mat”.

You may be the worst BK, in that you don’t follow, but you are still a BK because you aspire to, or you run yourself down because you don’t.

So, do you accept/believe that it is God Shiva speaking through the medium of Lekhraj and Gulzar, or not?
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

... believing, of course, that the BKs' "God Shiva" is the one and only god, and that there are none others.

That's the (Islamic) clincher that separated and defines them as apart from all other Hindus.

"All your gods are only a mere poor, partial and incomplete shadow (5,000 year old "memory" to be specific), of us, and our god and guru", says a BK.
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

I wish to let you know that I do not mean to ignore your many questions, especially the more "personal" ones, that are still left unanswered, particularly in a condensed and direct form.

I also believe all things come in good time. Sometimes we are unable to see how exactly "all this" is good, but as time unfolds, which may take a long time to finish, it gets increasingly clear.

Pink Panther,
...of us, and our god and guru", says a BK.

I believe there are two types of misunderstandings that may possibly exist whenever something is expressed or being observed. It may be that the one who made that expression had it wrong (or delivered it wrong). Or, it may be that the one who observed the expression got it wrong (or received it wrong). Based on my experience with various people (BKs and non-BKs), each of these misunderstandings, if there is any at all, is quite equally likely to have occurred.

You have generously presented your thoughts about how a person is defined to be a BK. Also, kindly accept my gratitude for this promotion:
... but you are still a BK because ...

However, I desire to present my own understanding about the same. :p These can be found in public literature, including those on this website's library (for example, some parts of these summarized definitions can be found in the "Divine Decree"):

I believe one is a "true BK" if one is a true "Brahmin", as defined by the org, as per my understanding. A "Brahmin" is one who has finished conquering one's inner demons and is totally on track, as defined by the org, as per my understanding. On the other hand, a "Kshatriya" is one who is aware of the teachings and of one's s&w, but has not finished conquering one's inner demons, as defined by the org, as per my understanding. Of course, on yet other hands, we have "Vaishya" and "Shudra" defined as well.

As ex-I insists (not that I agree on this):
But, trust me, your views are *not* BK.

I don't remember saying the following:
Honestly, going to Morning Class and doing Amrit Vela is not that hard. It does not take 15 years to work up to.

I did say that I find it hard to be a true Brahmin. I attend the offline classes irregularly, but am more regular in the online versions and in practicing Yoga as much as I can throughout the period I am awake. Yet I feel that I am far from "my own" "potential perfection".

BTW, imho a short (1m49s) but interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw (meant especially for science lovers).

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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awakening

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

If anyone found that video interesting, then I believe the following will be immensely so (25m51s): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1MFOuYiqAI

Since there are multiple contradictory views presented, anyone can possibly agree with only one of them. However, all are equally interesting in my opinion.

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

Pink Panther wrote:No, I have not supplied an absolute definition of a perfect God, I identified what I beleive to be characteristics 'The' highest on high supreme soul God would display, if he were ”perfect” ...

PP, once again you avoided my questions and put even more weight to prove your argument about BK God to be not the perfect God. However, you have avoided answering the simple questions. There is a reason why I ask. Whether BKs or non-BKs or other religions' notion of God, people who have faith in any of their notions of God are not just driven by logic or reason. Therefore often it may be a futile discussion to prove to a believer by logic or reason that his God is not the perfect God. A firm BK would always put the imperfections down to Dada Lekhraj and not Shiva, the God they believe as point of light etc ...

However, there is a better way to prove this. Show them another "God" or perfect "God" .. So I repeat my questions:
    How do you personally view God ? Is there one you believe in?
    If there is one, what is the way to connect with that entity?
    What is his role etc?
BP wrote: ClearofBK, is BK a religion?

BP, I understand BKs don't believe in this. But I tend to believe they are.
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ex-l

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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

Look, Awakening, the question was very simple but very relevant ... and despite all your waffle you are still avoiding it.

When you say "offline classes", do you mean Morning Class, or general day/weekend/retreat type classes?

How often have you and how often do you attend Amrit Vela nor attend Morning Class? If you can answer honestly and simply, I'll explain the significance and then we can move on.

Let me answer for you, "No, I never get up for Amrit Vela nor attend Morning Class". That would immediately knock your level of perfection or BK divinity down from single figure percentages to a fraction of one percentage.

I think you are being a little disingenuous again, doing a slippery little dance around your BK-ness, and mixing things up deliberately. It's no big deal here, we're not Dadis or center-in-charges.

Your BK-ness relates to your faith during the Confluence Age ... (and, I am sorry to say, you're just not a very good one by BK terms). Whether you are a Golden Aged soul (Brahmin) or a Silver Aged soul (Kshatriya) relates to your alleged first births ... if you believe in what the BKs teach ... and the success of your efforts in this life, now.

And yes, your lack of efforts, your spiritual laziness, your lack of purity and surrender, will lead you to become a low status, end of Silver Age soul only.

Are we agreed on that?

(NB, "Brahmin" is also used as a short hand descriptor for Brahma Kumar/Kumari, e.g BK Brahmins versus non-BK shudras, therefore let's clarify that we mean ... a "BK Confluence Age Brahmin").
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

clearofBK wrote:... your argument about BK God to be not the perfect God ... Show them another "God" or perfect "God"

What they need is not a better god, but a better way of living and thinking.

What they need is to overcome their fearful, superstitious need for any god and to use their time and energy more practically and productively than chasing VIPs and begging for land and properties for themselves.

I'll admit that religion has been a very profitable business for the BKs but I do not admire them one iota for having acquired all their wealth in the unethical manner they have. I would respect and admire a honest toilet cleaner far more than I would the parasitical Brahma Kumaris.
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

ex-l wrote:What they need is not a better god, but a better way of living and thinking. What they need is to overcome their fearful, superstitious need for any god.

OK, that is of course one of the ways. Turning into an atheist. Not every beliver in God does it out of fear or superstition though. It can be out of love as well. Awakening? Is your belief in God is out of any fear? Why do you believe what you believe?
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post24 Feb 2015

clearofBK wrote:... one of the ways. Turning into an atheist.

Not necessarily an atheist even. Just putting "the gods" into a correct perspective rather than making it the center of one's obsession. Organised religion is just 99% business. Largely 'show business' too (theatre/movies etc). The BKs are just rather keen you surrender everything to their business, not so much their god, as they live off thr former..

I neither believe nor disbelieve in any god ... why is it necessary to do either? ... but I do disbelieve in any religious leaders who tell you giving money to them benefits you! I'd even say the historical evidence - of visions and interventions etc - suggests that whoever or whatever is out there or in there does not bother about organised religion either.

There's a saying, "Politics is just show business for ugly people". Religion is business for people who could not make a career out of politics. Funnily enough, the BKs used to sell themselves as a "religio-political" cult.
... fear or superstition though. It can be out of love as well.

It can be for other reasons too ... a need to feel special or superior, insecurity, financial gain, simple cultural conformity, or a way of differentiating oneself to name a few.

"Why do you believe what you believe?" is a good question to ask. I'd be skeptic that we'd get a really honest answer from a BK though. They are too well trained in giving the "right" (acceptable) or most rewarded answer.

Therefore, rather than one 'either/or' reason ... what are the three most conscious reasons you believe what you believe?
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post25 Feb 2015

ClearofBk,

You noted that i did not provide a definition of a perfect God. I agreed that I hadn’t. I had asked that question of Awakening. As he failed to answer straightforwardly, i attempted to think out loud for him.

To avoid the many possible different definitions of ”perfect” that people have when describing ”God” , I discarded those which IMO are not agreed to by all believers.

I homed in on one I thought all believers in a personal perfect god would agree with - omniscient, all knowledgeful - and tied that to the BK teaching about God’s role which is essentially about imparting ”knowledge”. *

All I am trying to do here is get Awakening to think clearly about what it is he believes and doesn’t believe .


As for me? That was not the topic of discussion, but anyway, here’s what i think.

God is created in man’s image. if you observe the history of religions and beliefs, you can see that as man changes, so too does God. Maybe that’s God’s will? ;) Maybe when we are in the 22nd century AD, there will be a cult that believes in a God that has morphed from the personal Father God to some sort of Prime DNA Cybernetic programmer?

Just because it can be conceived does not make something so, it merely makes it ”conceivable”. And all that does is reflect the state of evolution of consciousnes of the conceiver.

* The interesting thing about God being perfectly omniscient/knowledgeful for the BKs is that, although it is the raison d’etre for Shiva’s existence (in BK theory) i.e. his very purpose, that Trikaldarshi omniscience is the slipperiest part of any ‘relationship” a BK has with their Baba. It’s rarely the reason educated BKs love being BKs. It’s usually more a matter of the ‘feelgood high" experienced in their self- affirmation meditations.
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Re: Awakening: the response of a recent BK supporter

Post25 Feb 2015

clearofBK, Pink Panther:
clearofBK wrote:Awakening? Is your belief in God is out of any fear? Why do you believe what you believe?
It can be out of love as well.
Pink Panther wrote:All I am trying to do here is get Awakening to think clearly about what it is he believes and doesn’t believe.

To the love, add euphoric exhilaration!

I have even attempted to share one of my experiences. Even if it were the only one, it would have been sufficient for me to be "clear about what it is I believe and don’t believe".

I am aware that the "capsule" experience I shared with you is not nearly a vivid description of what I experienced. So you may not be clear about how it is that I am clear of what I believe and don't believe, unless you have had a similar, or better yet, an identical, experience for yourself. I am afraid this is what I believe.
ex-I wrote:And yes, your lack of efforts, your spiritual laziness, your lack of purity and surrender, will lead you to become a low status, end of Silver Age soul only.

Thank you for serving the warnings. Really! I take these as God's alert signals. I don't really care "whose God" is doing this and everything else. What I care about and feel happy about is that He is communicating to me, albeit through you.

I understand that we understand that the term "Brahmin" used in this thread refers particularly to the definition provided by the BKWSU, which I have discussed before. Also, just to emphasize that this is not entirely a new definition as such, there are non-BK philosophies that define the term closely in terms of the values that a "Brahmin" needs to possess in order to qualify as one. Keeping this in mind, about the following:
NB, "Brahmin" is also used as a short hand descriptor for Brahma Kumar/Kumari...

You have provided too many evidences for me to have the need to quote them but, basically, I understand you saying that by your own experience, you believe that not every BK is a Brahmin. I also believe that you believe that not every Brahmin needs to be a BK.

Om Shanti! Satyamev Jayate!
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