Marriage in jeopardy

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Pink Panther

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post19 Aug 2015

Insightful quote on cults there ex-l.

Another facet of the nasty hypocrisy of the BKs expounding celibacy as highest virtue then advising wives (or husbands?) to "lie back and think of England" or Baba, or that they are clearing karma (or, another one I’ve heard, being ‘an instrument’ to give birth to "Advance Party soul”) is this.

Any senior BK who advises another BK to ”allow” sex for the sake of the marriage or whatever knows that, according to BK philosophy, the non-celibate BK will take a lower ”number in the rosary” i.e. a lower status.

Many BKs are encouraged to do the institution’s work with the promise that they are "creating their fortune, creating their kingdom by creating subjects" thereby gaining ”high status”.

Once you’ve bought into the BK narrative (fairy tale) of caste and hierarachy, you must accept all of it. "God" says so, it's 'Sri Mat'.

So if your wife’s BK teachers tell her to ”allow sex” but to keep her heart and mind on God, they are telling her that she should accept a lower level of ”spirituality" than they would. They are instructing her to place herself below them as a lower status subject, at their feet, to serve them in the next life.

You present her as intelligent. She needs to understand the implications of BK teachings. If she believes and understands , she would not compromise. Either its true or its not.

If its ‘true', she can’t pretend she can be giving full love and affection to ”Baba” while compromising so-called ”purity” and merely role-playing/acting ”the good wife and mother”.

That is called ”absent parenting” (there can be emotional absence as well as physical absence) which leads to much damage to herself, but in children in particular. Does she really understand her choices and their consequences?

The good news is that by leaving the BK 'contract', not accepting those hypocritical values and in choosing to honour Life here and now fully, she can experience emotional and spiritual fulfilment, where BK spirituality treats you like a donkey, chasing a carrot of fulfilment they dangle in front while they use your money & labour to their (real or imagined) benefit.
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ex-l

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post19 Aug 2015

There's an old BK saying, "conquering the world, 3 square feet at a time".

What amazes me is how audacious the Brahma Kumari crones are at penetrating every aspect of others lives ... whilst being utterly non-transparent about there. You may as well say, "conquering the world, each couple's bedroom at a time".

They want to be allowed to have their fingers stuck in everyone else's pie. Controlling not just their actions, but also their thoughts.

V78, in the Library section, I think, there is a lecture to the Kunyas (virgin BK girls, teenagers like your partner must have been) exhorting them to be vigilant of negative (sexual/emotional) thoughts and desires EVEN in their dreams. THey are told to have "charts" (diaries) where they check from even the most fleeting "impure" (sexual/emotional/affectionate) thought.

Even "attachment" to other human beings is said to a vice and negative. Indeed, it is taught to be the worst "female" vice (lust was blamed on males), portrayed as a mother monkey clutching onto a baby monkey.

Yes, I think learning up a little about the nature of cultic religions in particular will be helpful and useful in your case.

How is it all looking now?
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V78

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post19 Aug 2015

Time and again I have asked her if change in her behavior has something to do with BK Murlis/teachings, she completely denies it. I even asked her if she attended Kunya classes but she denies the same too. A few days ago, I noticed her to be noting charts with timings and tick marks I was not able to understand the same but now since you wrote I am getting it now. She completely denies that BKs are telling her not to do sex etc but, in the last year or so, she lied to me multiple times like going to centre, peace village etc and when I found out she told me she did not tell me because of my fear and anger but her constant lies have eroded my trust in her.

I even forwarded her controversial Murlis and told her to seek clarification but she told me to go to a centre and seek it in person as per her teacher.

She has been manipulating me for a while and had I brought it earlier on this forum either things would have normalized or we would have split earlier. Even a few days ago, when I clearly told her that I am going to divorce her if she does not leave BK, she agreed to have sex then trying to get a little bit more involved.

So, as pink panther said and I even told her the same, that is she is being poor wife as well as poor BK. She wants to sail in both boats or try to suck me into cult later on.

I just wished she was honest about her plans but I have caught her lies/deceptions a lot and I think GOD is finally opening my eyes as I had my warning signs but I did not think that seriously that this cult can do this.

I think we are heading for separation as now I see she is too much into it.

Thanks again, you all, for guidance
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ex-l

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post19 Aug 2015

There an official BK poster, here, that lists all the Maryadas (principles or rules).

In 30 odd years of BK exposure, I have never seen or even heard the rule that "celibacy is only for centre-wassis".

That is an absolute lie. The rule was everyone had to be celibate and you had to be celibate, including no masturbation, for 6 months (Westerners) or a year (Indians) before being allowed to go to Mount Abu.

What's she is doing is terrible and ... to be quite honest ... not even "pukka" by proper BK standards, e.g. turning her lies on you by saying that it was your fault for being negative (fear and anger). Passing you on to the centre-in-charge who she knows will be far better equipped with yuktis to run rings around you (what they do is generally meet the likes of you in pairs, one meditating when the other talks, allow you to talk on whilst they sit there in Yoga trying to "zap" you with their god's vibes. They adopt a passive position and then try and give you a holy sweetie to fix things).

I don't think I've encountered quite so strident and spoilt Kumari before. I'd even go as far to question whether she is lying to the BKs too?

Does she actually believe the core beliefs of the BKs?

Have you discussed them, e.g. 5,000 years cycle, Confluence Age? All these terms and concepts are summarized in our Encylopedia section.
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V78

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post21 Aug 2015

I have discussed lot of information regarding BK including Maryadas which I received from this forum and she was very surprised about my knowledge and attributed that I am forming my opinion from anti BK people.i even forwarded her news clippings etc re abuse/wrongdoings in BK but she again had her justification for the same. As regards her parents ( mother hardcore BK) they think my only focus is on sexual part but I do not blame them as they are talking what they have been told. I have advised my wife time and again to discuss this issue in detail with a neutral non BK person but she is reluctant to do so because of her personality and probable embarrassing nature of subject as it has taken me over two years to talk about it.

Time and again she sticks to the stand Celibacy is flexible in regards to young couple . as regards no masturbation as stated by Ex-I she showed ignorance. I forwarded her some of links /quotes /information she initially said she will try to get answers from BKs then now is sticking that there is a procedure to obtain these answers by going to centre and when told her that Sisters are going to talk/ hypnotise she again showed her ignorance. now telling me that I need to take a 3 month course from a centre before forming any opinion.

She wants us to try for a 3-6 month period in which she will fulfill all duties of marital life continue BK stuff with assurance that there will be no effect of BK stuff on our family life. whether I need to take this bait or risk that only I can decide as I already Know I have been warned enough by you all.

It is open to speculation if she is lying to the BKs or the core beliefs in BKs.we can discuss it but only she knows the truth. She is open to let her marriage go rather than leave BK but the mute question is why she is still in denial of role of BK in our marital life when she is very well aware that divorce is on the cards. Probably she is too complicated female at least for me as looks like ex-I haven't had encountered anything like it.

Her justification is that I should have accepted her as is and my anger and frustration and criticism of BK is responsible for the situation and had I accepted her and given her more support and love she would have fulfilled all her obligations sounds too Hollywood drama like or B.... s.... To me.I wished she was here to give her side of story so that there is no biased opinion.

She wants instead of quotes the whole Murli so that she can explain the context in which it was written : (Pardon me as I am writing the quotes from Murli )
" a Kumari is pure , but after marriage ,she becomes a worshipper , impure .she considers her husband to be her God and bows her head to him and lives like his slave.Therefore ,Baba comes and frees you from slavery "

" Here husband and wife give sorrow to each other ,because they lead a vicious life after marriage. you are becoming worthy to go to Golden Age where vice never exists "

Hope pink panther or someone can send me this whole Murli they can PM me if they want.

The reason I am too detailed in description of this soap opera with ever changing twists and turns is besides opening my eyes giving me mental strength to come out of this relationship and come out of this trap is I sincerely hope and pray few or atleast one innocent life can get saved down the road.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post21 Aug 2015

The Murlis have been regularly revised and re-edited, so it is difficult to search out which one, even if there was a database of them.

I can verify everything ex-l has said about sri mat and mariadas and celibacy and masturbation etc. Although i would say that BKWSU does not always apply them to people who they want to keep in contact and have co-operate with them. For example, the rule about no sex or masturbation before going to Madhuban. Whether or not one is meeting with the BapDada entity, that rule is enforced. But it is overlooked when it comes to the rich and famous who aren’t even BKs, or partial (fringe BKs) who have something to offer (name, wealth, talent) but who are not submissive.

As for your wife and her family thinking it is just about sex - well, sex is a sanctified part of marriage in almost every culture and religion. What were the marriage vows? Do they not include that no-one comes between husband and wife? The sexual relationship between a husband and wife is a symptom of theri total relationship. It is called ”consummation” because it is a completion of the unification of what were once two. Otherwise the relationship is no different to any other friend.

Ask her how would she like it if you had no love or respect for her as a person but wanted a physical relationship only, if you only used her for sex and as a housemaid but your heart and emotional energy went to another woman? Is that a wholesome fulfilled marriage for her? Is that what she envisages as her married life? That is what she is doing to you by giving her deepest heart to "Baba” and only begrudgingly giving just enough attention to you.

If a parent dutifully feeds and clothes the children but gives no love to them, instead is emotionally distant, is that fulfilling parenthood? What about a parent who gives lots of love in words and hugs and even plays with children but makes no effort for the child’s diet or sleep routines or school progress? Neither is that full parenthood. If she has sex with you as a ‘duty', that is not the love of a married couple. It is a sham. . A marriage needs to have both pulling in the same direction. If she does not want to love you fully and completely, she should be honest about it, then you both can decide if you both want the same thing and have the same goals
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ex-l

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post21 Aug 2015

V78 wrote:attributed that I am forming my opinion from anti BK people.

That's just the first defence mechanism arising and it shows you how the BKs think; there's no absolutely right or wrong, it's just "you're either with us (unquestioning) or against us (questioning)". BK are encouraged not to question.

We are not anti-BK we are pro- the truth about BK. Unfortunately for the BKs, there are a lot of inconvenient truths about them they don't want people to see not even accept.

But, with here, you some extra overheads going on at a purely personal level.
she initially said she will try to get answers from BKs then now is sticking that there is a procedure to obtain these answers by going to centre and when told her that Sisters are going to talk/ hypnotise she again showed her ignorance. now telling me that I need to take a 3 month course from a centre before forming any opinion.

She may be talking about "taking Shrimat". All that means is going to see a Senior Sister, telling their your problem and then taking their advice which is said to be equal to god's.

In the Encyclopedia section, there is their teachers' manual for the 7 Day course. You can actually read not just what they teach, but how they are told to teach there. The "3 months" business is BS. And, of course, it is just all about hooking you in.

You don't need three months to understand BKism. Can you believe the world is only 5,000 years old and repeats identically every 5,000 years? They can offer no proof or even theory of how this can be.
She wants us to try for a 3-6 month period in which she will fulfill all duties of marital life continue BK stuff with assurance that there will be no effect of BK stuff on our family life. whether I need to take this bait or risk that only I can decide as I already Know I have been warned enough by you all.

Love is not a "duty". It is not a job or "service" to be carried out by a robot. She cannot separate two parts of herself. The BK and the normal person.

If she won't give up BK, there is no hope. Actually, no hope for her.

In BKism there is a lot of concern about protecting the facade of BKism, not "defaming Baba" or not bringing "defamation to the family (BK)", so she will try to distract from them.

I also find the BKs quite patronising, as in it's your problem for not understanding. My response is, there's nothing to "understand". it's all perfectly clear and very simple. Those Murli points are what they are. The BK is full of story of "heroic" Sisters who suffered at the hands of their evil, lustful husband and then triumphed by escaping.
The reason I am too detailed in description of this soap opera with ever changing twists and turns is besides opening my eyes giving me mental strength to come out of this relationship and come out of this trap is I sincerely hope and pray few or atleast one innocent life can get saved down the road.

That's a good motivation and act to do.

Thank you.
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V78

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post22 Aug 2015

" If she won't give up BK, there is no hope. Actually, no hope for her. "

This sums it all ...
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ex-l

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post22 Aug 2015

More quotes from the Brahma Kumaris' Murli teachings just to show you how black and white it is.

Number two says it all for me.

When he says, "Is it the time for that now?", he means the Confluence Age, the ever expanding era between the Iron Age and the Golden Age on earth. Once 12 years, then 40 years, then 50 years, then 50 to 60 years, the BK are now stretching it out even further as they fail to become perfect and the End of the World does not come. Of course, this is screwing with their other earlier predictions about Krishna being born on earth and an "Advance Party" building all the golden palaces and technological miracles (including safe nuclear power) in advance of the BKs coming back to rule the world for 2,500 years.

Here's a BKs own information sheet for efforts on purity. I'd like her to produce one thing in writing saying that official it is OK for BKs to have sex.

Not as a privately spoken "yukti" or method to gradually wean a husband off to suck him into BK, but as an official policy on BKs having sex.

The truth is, the BKs have strong punishments for BKs who have sex including demoting them from their positions, to banning them going to Madhuban for a year to, ultimately, banning from the centre.
Quarrels take place on this purity only. But one should be very strong. Now it’s better to remain pure by doing some or the other job for the sake of livelihood instead of prostituting yourself (to be married). There are some like this also.

(25-4-71 pg-3)

--

Beatings are received only on becoming pure. Father says, “I have come to spoil everybody’s households.”

(1-6-76)

--

Quarrels arise over sex-lust only. If they don’t permit you to remain pure then you will certainly say that it’s better to clean utensils. We shall clean and sweep the house, but we will remain pure. Lot of courage is required in this. Whenever one comes into the asylum of Father, Maya also starts fighting.

(6-8-76)

--

Some say that Baba when we live in the house, she doesn’t allow me to touch her. Arey! Is it the time for that now? It’s not good to touch a woman. Otherwise the vices will attract you.

(6-10-76)

--

Quarrels take place over sex only. O.K! If your husband beats you then you remember ShivBaba. “Oh ShivBaba! He is beating me.” By remembering ShivBaba you will get salvation. As will be your stage at the end, so will be your salvation.

(29-10-76)

--

Give me all that you possess, including the body. I will purify both your soul and body. And then I shall give you the post of Kings.

(25-4-73)
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V78

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post22 Aug 2015

I cannot agree anymore...

I just pray one day her eyes open up and she realizes truth and only truth about her blind faith ...

But that day may never come ...

Heartfelt thanks and gratitude to all of you for saving my life. I am still in a mental shock and lot of pain and emotional trauma with whatever happened but appreciate help of this forum esp Ex - I and pink panther.
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ex-l

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post22 Aug 2015

Here's a very notable case, better managed by the BK than most ... The husband I love left me for the man upstairs...that's God, just in case you're wondering.

Neville Hodgkinson is a leading PR man for the BKWSU. Here he is even milking his separate for "good PR" for the BKs.

On the other hand, a case in India ... sounds familiar?
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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post23 Aug 2015

I have seen writing on the wall ...
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Pink Panther

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post23 Aug 2015

Indeed. She has her human right to live her life as she wishes and to make her own choices of when and to whom she gives her love and affection. However, she used that right to choose to marry you. Marriage is a sacred contract based on intimacy and full commitment to the partner ahead of all others. She has reneged on her part of the contract, placing BKs ahead of the harmony and unity of the marriage, not by accident but by repeated choice. If children were involved that would complicate things but there are not and you are both free agents to decide how you each want to proceed.

Gods of other religions do not enter into the every day life and household of the believer. Rather, traditional religious wedding ceremonies sanctify the union of the couple. In Judaism the act of sex in marriage and procreation is seen as the most holy act (while outside marriage it is considered wrong - even though Abraham had a wife and a concubine!)

BK God, however, puts himself in the middle of everything, takes over people’s lives, demands to be glorified (which is the basis of what BK call ”Godly service” i.e. proselytising). They talk of ”purity” as if it is synonymous with celibacy, but there is such a thing as pure arrogance.

I hope the main thing you have taken from this V78 is that rationality and reason do not come into this.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post23 Aug 2015

From the Christian orthodox wedding ceremony ( I am sure other religions have similar sentiments):

And the Priest says aloud the following: Holy God, ... as it was seemly unto Your Majesty for man not to be alone upon the earth, do You Yourself, O Sovereign Lord, stretch forth Your hand from Your holy dwelling place, and join* together this Your servant (Name) and Your servant (Name), for by You is a wife joined to her husband, and husband to wife. Join them together in oneness of mind; crown them with wedlock into one flesh; grant to them the fruit of the womb, and the gain of well-favored children, for Yours is the dominion, and Yours is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory...
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ex-l

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Re: Marriage in jeopardy

Post23 Aug 2015

The following quotes from BKWSU copyright material in the Library section.
BK God, however, puts himself in the middle of everything ...

I have literally seen this with my own eyes.

A young, attractive, happy intelligent couple "came into Gyan", became BKs, together. They came to the main centre to meet Dadi Janki and "get her blessing"* full of anticipation. They were obviously close and also loved or were attracted to each other. They were an attractive couple.

Dadi made this big scene about them lecturing them about "only one Baba" and celibacy and then took the large rolled up poster of Lekhraj Kirpalani's face that she was handing out as gifts and stuck it between them like a sword. There was no ambiguity whatsoever about the meaning of the gesture.

Next morning, they were both sitting separated on other sides of the class.

I pray to god they left the Brahma Kumari overlords and spiritual parasites.
Brahma Kumaris are defamed because they make people renounce vice. There is fighting because of this. The Father has told you that lust is the greatest enemy.

- 29/11/02

Here is the most unambiguous quote. She is making a mockery of marriage, and she is making a mockery of Brahma Kumarism.
Prajapita Brahma’s children are Brothers and Sisters. They cannot indulge in sex.

- Revised Sakar Murli dated 17.12.05, page 2

They, their god, refers to temples carrying out marriage rites as "brothels".
The whole world is passing through a period of great emergency, and so I now ordain that you must not indulge in sex-lust as otherwise I will ask you to remember that I am the Supreme Adjudicator, i.e. Dharamrãj also.

The most essential and the most useful of these rules is to observe Chastity. Sex-Lust is man’s enemy and the worst enemy of yogi. The lascivious man is attached to his body and runs after sensual pleasures, but the yogi dissociates himself from his body and longs with all his heart for a meeting with the Supreme Soul, the incorporeal Supreme Father. Sex-Lust appears to him to be the gateway to Hell, and is as poison; even to think of sex-lust is to him an act of impiety.

- ShivBaba and quoted in One Week Course by Jagdish Chander

The One Week Course is in the Library section, you should check how many times it refers to "sex-lust".

The bottomline is, from a BK point of view, she would be considered to be a very dirty soul requiring many extra efforts to overcome it and the effects of it. In my day, and at centres in India now, she would be made to do the 7 Day Course over again and be marginalised at the centre, i.e. not allowed to do important work, stuck doing menial work.

We would say, she is "full of her own manmat and ego, and "defaming Baba".

From 'Foundation Course in Raja Yoga Teacher Resources @ BKWSU 2004"
We practise celibacy, even in family life.

Sexuality pulls consciousness into the body more than any other act. But celibacy is much more than physical purity; it includes purity of thoughts, words and actions. The Knowledge and the drama cycle gives us the understanding that having children now will be a trememdous karmic bondage during this time that we have been given to clear all accounts. Also, at this time of The Cycle, souls coming into the womb may not be powerful and will thus cause more sorrow than happiness.

- May 2004 Teacher Resources
Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University.

Purity or celibacy is clearly mentioned many times. I could go on and on ... as the BKs do!

The question of why one cannot be "soul conscious" and have sex is one that crosses my mind. Why, e.g. can they be "soul conscious" and carry out tax fraud, steal, cheat immigration etc ... but not love and care for another human being is a paradox to me.

*(Footnote here; most words or idioms in BKism have a double meaning and you need to have been part of it for a while to understand them. Strictly speaking, BKs don't "give blessings" like gurus or saints do, so "to get Dadi Janki blessing", really just means, to allow Dadi Janki to check you out and get her approval". Which, as Dadi gets older and less available, other middle management BK Sisters copy).
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