Location of the soul

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brk108

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Location of the soul

Post09 Jan 2016

Hi,

I had recently read the book written by Rajayogi BK Jagdish Chander.

In that, the location of soul is mentioned in the hypothalamus near the upper part of brain stem. Which I oppose because according to shastras it is located in the heart.

Prana is a subtle material energy arising from rajo guna. It works as an interface between gross and subtle body, enabling all the psychophysical functions (i.e. animation - from Latin "anima"). This sometimes leads to confusion of prana with jiva. Although they are very closely connected, prana is witnessed by the jiva which is floating in prana in the heart cavity. Katha Upanisad 1.3.1 says:
RtaM pibantau sukRtasya loke
guhAM praviStau parame parArdhe
chAyAtapau brahmavido vadanti
paJcAgnayo ye ca tri-NAciketAH
"O Naciketa, the expansions of Lord Visnu as the tiny living being (jiva) and the Supersoul both stay within the cave of the heart of this body. In that cavity the living being, resting on the main prana, enjoys the results of activities, and the Supersoul, acting as witness enables him to enjoy them. Those who are well-versed in knowledge of Brahman and those householders who carefully follow the Vedic regulations say that the difference between the two is like the difference between a shadow and the sun."

Please clarify.
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ex-l

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Re: location of the soul

Post09 Jan 2016

Well, first thing to remember is that Jagdish Chander had no qualifications at all to write the things he did, and he had a bad habit of fantasising and making things up, so I would not take anything he wrote seriously. Some of what he wrote was utterly ridiculous nonsense, other parts of it wilfully dishonest and true.

Those are not symptomatic of a high, spiritual soul.

Secondly, the idea or reality of prana really does not arise with BKism. They have no interest in the subteties of it at all.

Brahma Kumarism was designed as a simple path for uneducated women by a businessman who also had no qualifications and was not part of a religious order. He was not educated in the Vedas.

I am aware of the division in belief between some Vedantic or mystic schools which place the soul in the heart, not in the head like the BKs do. Do I know which one is true or even if there is a soul ...? No, sorry.

What are the BKs doing meditating on the third eye or ajna (brow) chakra?

It's possible that they are "merely" stimulating or activating the ajna chakra and the rest of BKism is just a mental block or fairy story to keep the mind quiet/shut ... but don't waste your time asking them because they don't know about any such things and will go into confusion and denial if you start asking them.

What I can say is that having done BK meditation, many people - including myself - experience pressures or tingling in the forehead, between the eyes and interpret this in a variety of ways. Some experience headaches, others feeling of lightness.

But really, their leaders don't know and cannot help you.

If you believe that the Brahma Kumaris are a "Spiritual University", you are wasting your time. They are more like a "Spiritual Marketing and Advertising company". Their Gyan is very limited and shallow and they have spent most of their energy in clever developing marketing campaigns advertising themselves.

They also believe the Vedas as works of delusion and of little to no benefit, and that no one has gained liberation or enlightenment through them.

Just out of interest, why would the jiva be in the heart? ... Is that just not another meditation focus exercise to stimulate the heart chakra for those following Bhakti? (Yoga of devotion).

If the soul is in the heart, does it have a periscope to look up through the eyes? Why would it be away from the control centre of the brain? What the BKs would say is, all info to and all commands from go back and forward to the brain, therefore the soul must be there.

They may also argue from the point of experience and, in that case - although it is also prone to being illusionary - I would agree with them. Many have had experiences of the energy in the body rising up above and away from the heart and body, of being centred around the head, like the pictures of saints with halos. That is my experience too. It means little but I remember me/my prana rising above my heart and being within the head. Others go right out of the top of their head and body and even this world.

I don't know. I don't follow BKism any more but I used to "teach" it. I can tell you as an ex-"teacher" ... not only do the BK leaders not know, they are against knowing, i.e. thinking, questioning and challenging to discover the truth.

To be honest, they are fairly uneducated. They think their Gyan is deep, but only because they tell themselves so 10,000 times a day ... but if you analyse it, and start asking questions such as you, you will quickly discover their knowledge is very shallow.

It is just 90% about manipulating and control others, to live off the money and properties running a "religion" brings.
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ex-l

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Re: location of the soul

Post09 Jan 2016

ex-l wrote:What are the BKs doing meditating on the third eye or ajna (brow) chakra?

It's possible that they are "merely" stimulating or activating the ajna chakra and the rest of BKism is just a mental block or fairy story to keep the mind quiet/shut ...

Added to this ...
Over-active Ajna

If you have an over active third eye you may experience stress accompanied by frequent headaches that happen in the forehead or temples. You may become delusional and create circumstances in your mind that are not really happening (a mental disease). An individual with over-activity in this chakra may also tend to be judgmental, unsympathetic or over-intellectual in their thinking.

Yogic adherents believe there are physical symptoms of chakra imbalances.
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warrior

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Re: Location of the soul

Post09 Jan 2016

Location of soul is a very good point and the other very good point is Where is Supreme Soul?

I think BKs have tried with no success to explain both questions, also PBKs and other branches have no clue, they assume this and that but answer is not convincing at all and proof of that is you here asking for an answer about the very core of the BKWSU knowledge.

Looking at the angle of human form and its functions there is a small clue, that is, the 'Force' seems to be stronger in the head somewhere. The force you may say is the soul. I call it simply an energy. And if it is an energy it could be located anywhere in the body or all over the body. Maybe, but where would be the center point?

It may be logical to you if I say that the soul or this energy stays or occupies a space and that is in one cell of the upper forehead or just behind the forehead. Just one cell of your body is the location of soul.

Good luck ...
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ex-l

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Re: Location of the soul

Post09 Jan 2016

One of the arguments that, say, the Hare Krishnas end of Vedantism use ... and they go with the "soul in the heart theory" ... is something like (approx), "Krishna cut the head off a man and stuck a donkey's head on his shoulders and the man kept on living, therefore the soul is in the heart".

So far science has not been able to replicate the experiment.

Warrior, I think you raise an important issue ... that is to say, the nigh impossibility of conceptualising or explaining a potential higher but non-separate dimension of existence to this one.

If you take away matter, is there any space or structure? How can we measure position on a soul/super soul level?

For me, I don't know. I am had some strong experiences, may be saw sparks of lights and things, but the rest is above and beyond my experience, and ability to influence, therefore not part of my life any more. It's all pretty much unprovable.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Location of the soul

Post10 Jan 2016

They had no idea of anatomy and physiology in ancient days. When they use the word heart they do not have in mind the same thing as we do. Even today we use the word heart metaphorically.

Soul i.e. as the idea of an immortal entity, is mere conjecture. It need not be confused with the metaphor a word for something representing the intangible experiences we have here and now, things like love, hate, joy, sadness, empathy, values etc.

These intangibles are self-evident to every person. We feel our own and empathise with others' when we pick up tangible signals such as expression, sound, smells etc.

The idea that ”I” will somehow continue, when the rest of what is associated with this life ceases, is based on nothing but conjecture, wishful thinking, the hope of the ego.
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warrior

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Re: Location of the soul

Post10 Jan 2016

a potential higher but non-separate dimension of existence to this one.

Yes, it is known that God resides in the 11th dimension, however the 11th dimension is not so far far away, it is a question of perception.

In quantum, nothing is separated. Me and you are not separate. There is no higher position of one being Narayan and one Shudra. So who created this concept that we start believing? The religious gurus did.

In the description of physics, when a human body is broken down to the level of quantum particles there is nothing left apart from photons that are made of pure light. And the photons of your hand per example can be in two or more places at same time.
I am had some strong experience, may be seen sparks of lights and things

Yes, it is possible to have these experiences because of the nature of your structure as a being and in nature manifestations are common and that is due to the responses that travel via wave of vibrations.

It is only sure that you exist in a human body and that you are the person called Fluffy Banny when I am looking at you face to face otherwise when I am not in front of you or not looking at you then all your physical structure becomes a wave form.

On these bases what is the soul?
The idea that ”I” will somehow continue, when the rest of what is associated with this life ceases.

Yes, it continues but at same time the 'rest' is also not ceased. Matter is energy and cannot be destroyed, the rest will change form and will carry on to exist also.

But, however, there is a mind blowing thing in this game of life and death. Later on, OK ...
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ex-l

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Re: Location of the soul

Post10 Jan 2016

We have an experience and then add meaning according to our pre-programming, e.g. a BK looks as BapDada and says it is God, a Christian looks at BapDada and sees a demon possessing Gulzar.

Best not to pre-suppose but just look at the practical.

What I don't understand is how BKs can look at the practical manifestations and really believe it is a Supreme God.

I mean, what has he really done but amassed properties and wealth for the comfort of a few at the expense of the many?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Location of the soul

Post10 Jan 2016

Warrior wrote:Yes, it continues

Easy to say. You could just as easily say that ”it” dissipates into vapour for 9 days then turns into dew, is drunk by a bee then turned into honey, so the nature of the ”soul” is sweet!! Any tale can be told, can feel good, provide a salve to the needy, but is it true? Or merely a useful "working model"?

What we know for sure (and there’s plenty of ''what we know for sure'' to be getting on with) is that capital ”L” Life continues, and the process/instinct to propogate & continue Life is just as easily and validly called ‘Eros'.

There is no imperative for Life that needs an individual entity to ‘continue’.

As to ‘location', many in the ancient world placed intelligence in the stomach rather than the ‘heart' or head. But again, they were not anatomists, they were likely referring to "desire'' and how it motivates invention, or to emotional responses or gut feelings, gut knowing.
... when a human body is broken down to the level of quantum particles there is nothing left apart from photons that are made of pure light. And the photons of your hand per example can be in two or more places at same time.

Here’s some responses to that idea, not only to you but the many ”spiritual teachers" who like to use quantum physics to sound knowledgable and intelligently reasonable when they conflate ”spiritual" ideas with a science they don’t actually understand. These are from persons more learned than you or I in the field of quantum physics:
"For those who are not shocked when they come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr, 1952, Physics and Beyond. New York: Harper and Row. pp. 206.

"There was a time when the newspapers said that only twelve men understood the theory of relativity. I do not believe there ever was such a time. There might have been a time when only one man did, because he was the only guy who caught on, before he wrote his paper. But after people read the paper a lot of people understood the theory of relativity in some way or other, certainly more than twelve. On the other hand, I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." - Richard Feynman, in The Character of Physical Law (1965)

"Physicists do not believe quantum mechanics because it explains the world, but because it predicts the outcome of experiments with almost miraculous accuracy." - John Horgan, The End of Science (1996) p. 70
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ex-l

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Re: Location of the soul

Post10 Jan 2016

Pink Panther wrote:Easy to say. You could just as easily say that ...

I think that's a level of argument or put down via ridicule where you could do better. What is it they call it, reductio ad absurdum?

Sure, I do it too myself ... sometimes ... but the question I'd rather ask is, "of what relevance either way have the concepts of existence and the location model of the soul to my present life?"

Is taking a position, or selling one, of any real benefit to me?

I think one of the attractions of BKism is that a simple 7 hour course turns you into a wise and wonderful, gee whiz, New Age guru. It's a big ego trip for some ... especially when it is based on unprovable and undisprovable claims. I know that, because it caught me for a while.

If you're going to play a guru, it best to stick to unprovable and undisprovable claims because then you can never be wrong (... and, as the BKs know, even when you are caught out for being wrong, you can always re-invent it as a test or hide it!).

Warriors hints seem fair enough ... in short, reality is likely to be so different from what BKs spout, how we can conceive, and may even be terminal to know; so it is a good idea to chase?

This takes me back to what BKs experience and how they present their interpretation of it.

If there is a soul, it is or would be immaterial. I think we all agree on that. Lekhraj Kirpalani/the BKs differentiated their beliefs from Hinduism by placing the soul in the head, instead of the heart. Actually, it would be interesting and valid to go back and see how they recorded their conception of the soul in the early days and how long it took them to get to a "point of light".

This is reinforced by BKs experiences, e.g. pressures on the foreheads, visions of light from the forehead etc which they interperate as proof. The meaning of which I know question. I can actually still switch on/increase that feeling or pressure ... but I don't think it is what they say. I think it is a bodily phenomenon ... a chakra thing not "soul/atma" ... but there again, there's no business for me in chakras.

If push came to shove, I'd probably agree with someone that said BKs are into bodily/chakra *imbalances*, therefore it is no wonder they get sick and go crazy. But it has no relevence to my daily life.

This takes us to the atma/jiva and prana/prakriti, or soul and spirit equations. Indeed, most traditions have an even more complext model of mind/body/spirit/self. The BKs traditionally mock these and their proponents (pandits), and consider their contemplation a waste of time. They offer the most simple, stripped down model; soul/body.

Who knows either way? What's 'in it' for us?

For the BK leaders, it's their business. It's how they make their money spreading the idea. It's their intellectual property they want to promote and defend like Coca Cola defends their logo. For the newly born, 'instant guru BKs, it's a big ego trip, playing the part. For the rest of us ... what does it matter? What is important is our mental and bodily health and welfare, and interacting with the world until we die aged 70 or 80 years old. Not how much money we can rake in using a "2 to 3 years until Destruction, no sleep for the wicked" model. Questions of the existence of soul are also immaterial.

However, as an aside, I throw up one positive example. Apparently, Henry Ford of Ford automobiles was a great believer of the existence of the soul and reincarnation but instead of turning it into fear based cycle, he used it positively to give him the encouragement to keep on working practically ... on the basis of whatever he learnt going on with him into his next life.

Most reincarnation models involve a near limitless number of incarnations on level below and above our here and now.

Who knows ... who can prove either? For every example the BKs use to "prove" their simplistic soul/reincarnation model, there are 1,000s of others which they ignore, e.g. being from higher realms, reincarnations from animal states.

What do such contemplations it matter?
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Mr Green

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Re: Location of the soul

Post11 Jan 2016

Mine fell under the sofa somewhere
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warrior

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Re: Location of the soul

Post12 Jan 2016

Mr Green wrote:Mine fell under the sofa somewhere

It's funny and also real, I bet you cannot find it under the sofa, perhaps it evaporated ...
''God not only plays dice, but also sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen"

- S Hawking

So, yes, they cannot make sense of quantum. And I appreciate the way scientist come clean on this saying that no one can really understand it. How could they when the result of an experiment shows infinite answers?

One can explore their experiments and develop it by further research. I cannot just say - it's easy to say - because I am responsible for how much I want to know. I will never ever just sit and accept what they are saying, however, I can take that on board with my small brain and find out more. More then them the big, very big quantum activists you may ask?

Yes, why not?

Per example, I have done some research myself and got very good results. I used quantum possibilities when researching the Yagya history.

What is quantum?

It is how much. So how much is it? It is ZERO.
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ex-l

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Re: Location of the soul

Post12 Jan 2016

If 'soul' is immaterial, how can it be held and geolocated within the material world? is not it above, beyond and passing all through it? I mean, don't the BKs claim their Baba and Dadis can fly around the world in a second spying on all their centres and adherents like some Peeping Tom-Santa Claus character while still ALSO being in the body? ... Ah, don't worry, I don't need to know. It's of no practical relevance to my life, and knowing would fix or change nothing in it.

Perhaps the questions to ask is not "where is the location of the soul?", but "at what time in my life should I start contemplating these things and giving importance to them?" and is the practise healthy?

BKism makes it the be all and end all ... now! ... of all lives, whether young or old. Worth giving up everything else for because Destruction is just around the corner; education, business, careers and family thrown out the window.

I would say the answer is, not until you have sufficiently mastered being a body and fulfiling bodily responsibilities as, I would accept, Lekhraj Kirpalani had ... before he threw it all away and lost it.

Lekhraj Kirpalani certainly successfully mastered being a businessman, he was not so successful at being a husband and Father to his family - even after becoming soul conscious - and, I would also say, he flunked being a godman (despite the relative business success of it for his followers). If he is the best it produces, which is what they argue, is it worth it or even possible for the rest of us? Their soul consciousness only produces BKism after all ...

--

I had a quick look around and it seems like a few people are proposing various idea which seem very vague and I am no where near qualified to judge their validity, or understanding the mathematics. It does seem to be a very, very fringe area though, attempting a scientific translation of mystic ideas.

The most interesting for me was the suggesting that mental illness might be caused by "quantum imbalances" and hence, one presumes, become curable.

(Let's be honest, the only way the money will be made available to study and research it is if, a) it can be made into a weapon, or b) it can be turned into a drug or medical treatment some corporation can patent and make billions from. Science in expensive, someone has to pay for it ... and scientists are pushed to do science and papers that bring in the money.

The truth is, there is a big difference the BKs don't seem to understand between a scientist thinking about something, or saying something in quasi-scientific language and it becoming "Science". At least I know that much. I also know that unless you can do the mathematics, and prove the theory can be reproduced reliably, you and it are basicially excluded from any acceptance. In my opinion, the BK practise appears to strengthen a detachment from reality instead of a healthy grounding and involvement in it, literally a floating away and and blinding from it.

The BKs have their theory but not a lot of science to prove anything of much value in dedicating so much time and energy to it. On one hand, there is no proof for any reliable cure for any disease or disorder and, on the other hand, there are numerous and undeniable "contraindication", e.g. people having mental breakdowns.

Some BKs have produced some scientific papers, from memory relating to heart disease perhaps brain waves, but not anything that would scientifically support or challenge their beliefs, e.g. a comparison with other practises. Pressed, I think they become very defensive about it and claim that's not the sort of proof or result that BKism is about, e.g. the contraindications are not caused by the practise and theory, they are "purifications" caused by "bad" actions carried out in the past.

There are many individuals on both sides of the debate who believe that scientific rigour can and should be applied to spiritual or mystic practises, and that the lack of scientific rigour
A contraindication is a condition or factor that serves as a reason to withhold a certain medical treatment due to the harm that it would cause the patient.

Contraindication is the opposite of indication, which is a reason to use a certain treatment.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Location of the soul

Post13 Jan 2016

There is a lot to show that mental states affect physical health. Modern medicine is also realising what "doctors" in ancient China and India knew, that physical health affects mental health.

There is nothing to show that ”a mental state” exists without a physical presence. Soul, like god, is a word that is generally understood to be a "thing” that independently exists which is ”immaterial”. Beyond that, it can be defined and re-defined to suit any theory you want to push. Because we conceive of opposites doesn’t make those concepts exist independently of each other. Does up exist without down, day without night? Depends where you stand. Is hating injustice not related to loving justice?

If darkness is a negative, the absence of light and not a thing in itself, is not immortality a negative, the absence of mortality? Do we create mortality or immortality by killing someone?

Traditional Vedantins can argue with the BKs till the cows come home whether the soul is or is not affected by actions, whether atman becomes paramatman or merges with brahman, whether soul reincarnates in humans only or whether animal, plant or even mineral existence has "soul". Is God the soul of the Universe and the universe is the body of god. Wax lyrically and poetically, its only words. Is soul food what you find in a soup kitchen in Harlem or BK Brahma bhojan? Is Stevie Wonder’s "Living for the City" real soul music or is it something like the BK favourite ”Sona Raj Kumari” and other favourites of Hindi cinema?

It's a moot discussion, a debate impossible to prove either way conclusively or, as ex-l suggests, it’s irrelevant to (even a distraction from) the main game, a good life.

If believing one definition helps you live better, by all means believe it. However, you should be suspicious of people, especially groups of people who insist that their idea of ‘soul', an abstract concept, is factually and definitely true while others are false, especially when they present their ideas with nothing more substantial as those others.

Why does any teaching of soul or god need continual accumulation of properties, growing bureaucracies, endless demands of people’s time and money in exchange for that supposedly life improving "knowledge" of the value of the immaterial?

We’d say that a good doctor is one who effects change in the patient so he is be better and can leave the doctor. A doctor who keeps prescribing the same medicine and keeps you wanting more is either incompetent or a drug peddler or a combination of these.

The very duality of 'soul versus body' is an intellectual construct. Why not consider that soul and body are one - two aspects of a whole or two poles of a single continuum? Why not see body as the most solid form of soul and the ”soul” is the finest, least solid form of matter? Just another idea for those who like to play with them.

But in the end, whether someone believes something about soul or god, is BK or Sikh, Christian or Buddhist, if he has his hand in someone's else’s pocket and denies it, he is a thief and a liar, regardless.
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Re: Location of the soul

Post17 Apr 2016

The most likely anatomical location for the soul or spirit is the hypothalmic-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPAA). The cardiovascular system and gastro-intestinal systems are intricately connected to the brain and can be affected directly and indirectly by thoughts and thought patterns.

One reason for the great excitement associated with the heart transplants by Christian Bernard, Denton Cooley, Michael DeBakey, and Norman Shumway in the 1960s and 1970s has been due to the entrenched association between the physical heart and the metaphysical soul. Functional magnetic resonance imaging or fMRI scanning was developed in the 1980s and 1990s.

The data from animal studies, especially neuro-developmental biology studies from the zebra fish and fMRI research are validating the psyche-brain interaction theory with a locus of the HPAA.
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