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Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016
by ex-l
human being wrote:But let me assure you that BKs, by no stretch of imagination, are a representative of Indian civilization in a similar fashion as KKK in USA is not a representative of ancient Greco-Roman civilization.

It would be interesting to have a view of the BKs are they are from a younger and Indian person.

Aren't they mostly old ladies now? One of the thing that surprised me doing this forum is how politically conservative (Right wing) they seem to be aligned.

I'll tell you, briefly, how I got caught. I was just about to go to India to find out what India was like myself. In a naive manner, and no doubt influences by 1960s hippie/spirituality, to "seek the master" ... as in to explore Indian spirituality/mysticism. Who knows, I might have just ended up sitting around with hippies ... I don't know.

Had I got there, I am utterly sure my 'world vision' - and view of India and spirituality - would have been very different; however, I never did.

I had read many of the Victorian/Edwardian translations of the classic scriptures, like Patanjali's Raja Yoga (interest in spirituality was not so common them). As "preparation" I started going to see some of the 'Hindu-esque' gurus and groups that were markering their stuff in the West ... and perhaps 4th or 5th on my list were the BKs.

Instead of getting to India and doing it for real, I ended up being sucked into the Brahma Kumaris for a few years (couple of years hardcore/few years 50:50). At that time, the End of the World was in 1986 or 1986 to 1996 (and there were no forums like this) and so I ended up a little trapped for longer even as an ex-BK, not moving on because of the old "what if?" equation.

It would be interesting older ex-BKs to re-consider the version of "Indianisms" the BKs sold them. Many Western BKs adopted a kind of semi-Indian personality; e.g. the clothes and funny accent, wobbly head and flicky hand mannerism typical of many guru-types.

I don't think old age really afford one authority over others (you just end up forgetting more than you know ... you need to start forgetting as your head and heart would break if you had to carry it all!) ... just considered how much the world - nevermind just India - has changed in the last 25/30 years.

So when you say, "I don't know India", I'd have to ask, "which India?". I don't know ... I probably have a better feel of Victorian/Edwardian India than present day!

I have no special strategy or intuition regarding boneheaded BKs, my patience is just exhausted with them. I've have 10 years of the same crap time and time again. I've become intolerant.

They are addicted idiots. Reason does not work. Perhaps just telling them might. In person, I am a little more patient.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016
by Pink Panther
human being wrote:I went to BKs at the age of 19... and am not interested in going there anymore (I am 25 now). .. I, like you, also used to take moral high ground during first few months of my BK years, but as my experiences deepened I grew out of them.... I also used to teach newer students but I am a voracious reader. During my seven days course I underwent a huge transformation not just at the outside but also at the inner most level so much so that I used to be an example for others.

human being, your BK timeline and experiences sound similar to mine, we are of a ”type” (the 'human being' type?) except none of my family members were involved. You are obviously wiser than I was at that age because I should have left BKs around the same age and period of involvement as you, instead I hung around for double that time, albeit on the "fringes”, waiting for ... I don’t know, something better and more fulfilling, which eventually came along. I don’t know if your experience was like mine in that I became emotionally attached to BKs and worked hard to make it fit intellectually. They call it ”churning” (a misuse of the word, or a metaphor at best) but really it's rationalising and justifying the irrational and the unjustifiable.

Anyway, I am also interested to hear your reply to ex-l’s question about the attitude of the young indians to the BKs in India. My impression when I was there the last few times - 80s and 90s, was that the educated Indians saw the BKs, not quite like we see the KKK, more like how Westerners view Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses - both modern shallow versions of an ancient tradition (Judeo-Christian-Hellenic) but with all the depth, insight and culture stripped out. As ex-l calls it, fast food religion.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016
by Friend
@human being - You've expressed your experiences and ideas/feelings, re:the Brahma Kumaris, in a very clear way and one I could, to a great degree, identify with. Same goes for ex-l's "what if?"

I keep in touch with the Brahma Kumaris but do not believe in Gyan (at times I totally discard it and at other times I leave a "what if" window open).

I'd like to ask you a few questions:
    1) What were your experiences in terms of realisarions during Raj Yoga meditation? Or were they just positive feelings?
    2) Many people seem to leave Gyan because of inability (not that it's a bad thing) to accept The Cycle. Why do you think you, and others, take time before leaving (since The Cycle seems illogical from the get go)? Is it that we think answers will eventually enter our ... intellects?
    3) Brahmins keep mentioning having the experience of the 84 births and The Ladder etc during meditation at some point in their BK lives. Do you think this mighy be something like a thought-form that you become a match too after a lot of RJ meditation? Or any other theories?
    4) Unrelated but, would you like to share where else you got the great experiences you mentioned?
I am always interested in these things.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016
by ex-l
I tend to see the BKs as spiritual parasites/predators now ... sitting outside the temple gates catching sincere but naive seekers of truth.

Their "Gyan" is just an 'ever-being-modified-or-improved' mouse trap designed to catch and exploit those with too much time (young men/women), or too much money. It's just what they do for a living.

Although I interact with some BKs, I have not seen or been around the centres or programmes for decades. Of what I hear and see online, I have no attraction towards them whatsoever (all this mock "corporate" stuff).

Someone wrote about how most people being sucked in by the BKs have something wrong with them ... perhaps a mix of a desire for acceptance is part of the equations.

I'd also be interested in hearing how the BKs are selling themselves and what sort of people they attract where you are.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016
by human being

The thing which I have learned about spirituality is that the outside action of an individual is immaterial but what matters really is the intent/motivation behind it. So, I cannot comment on what you would have found had you come across with some other group. Because, a lot of other gurus are also like that Indian charlatan in silicon valley show (I totally love it!) who fools around with that Gavin Belson guy.

In fact, it is my opinion that most of the 'gurus' who give special treatment to rich folk/foreigners (Caucasians mainly) etc etc are basically fraudsters though, some original people may have their genuine reasons as well. The point is I don't know why you wanted to try it in first place (I urge you to be honest here with yourself).

With regards to your questions regarding young indians' views on spirituality in general, and BKs and their types in particular, well, are you familiar with Abraham Harold Maslows' need pyramid (if not search for it). Indians, in my opinion, fall on the bottom 3 levels mostly (though it is mostly true for the entire planet). Spirituality will really suit a person (generally speaking though exceptions are always there and I see myself as one;)) who is at the self actualization level(that's how I see it). So, most of my fellows are busy imitating styles (dresses,accents etc) from Hollywood movies. The closer you are to a metro, more is the attraction to materialistic tendencies. This is a transition phase in recent history of India.

Those who look towards organizations like BKs are mostly undergoing some problems (low self esteem, depression, lack of friends/family etc), that's how people get entrapped in cults generally. Educated Indians are mostly unaware of their culture (don't care really) and I was no exception. I started read Indian books like Bhagwad Gita etc mainly to get points so that I could better understand and preach "Gyan" as per the organization. But, after reading (there is a lot of difference in reading commentories and original texts) and delving deeper into texts as well as works of the likes Vivekananda, Guru Nanak, Kabir, etc etc I could see the commonalities and also the fact that it was not them but the BKs who were mistranslating their works and often misquoting them.

However, the psychic experiences (no, I am not just talking about generation of positive feelings, happiness etc) one receives in BKs and the belief that someone who gives such "good" teachings cannot lead you astray kept me there. But I kept on researching.

Now I call these experiences as a 'spiritual anesthesia'.

One thing with which I agree with Gandhi (Mahatma if you like) completely and fully now is that it is not love or 'anand' (cannot be translated into English exactly) or even 'goodness' but TRUTH which is the foundation of any spiritual practice.

With regards to the particulars of the BKs, and the tricks they are using to attract people, I can go into details but, I don't see how that would benefit anybody and, frankly, I do not know your motivations behind the question.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016
by human being
@ pink panther:

No, the BKs are not viewed as the KKK in India but for different reasons. I used an extreme example to make a point against generalizing/stereotyping an entire society based on one's experiences in a fringe group.

The thing is, in India, young people's biggest worry is securing a job because of terrific (or terrible) competition here. The ones who go to spiritual organizations are generally those who have some 'issues' and think that this can help them overcome them. In a society still struggling for basic needs there is little awareness of human rights etc etc and we have zero time to spare for our intellectual pursuits (if you are not top of the pyramid/weirdo type). So, as such, people who care really about BKs are either the ones having some 'issues' or those who have 'lost' someone to the organization.

(Will explain later got to go).

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016
by ex-l
human being wrote:Now I call these experiences as a 'spiritual anesthesia'.

One thing with which I agree with Gandhi (Mahatma if you like) completely and fully now is that it is ... TRUTH which is the foundation of any spiritual practice.

I agree with both these statements, hence my question to the BKs, "How can you build an Age of Truth on lies and manipulation?".

You cannot, pure and simple.
With regards to the particulars of the BKs, and the tricks they are using to attract people, I can go into details but, I don't see how that would benefit anybody and, frankly, I do not know your motivations behind the question.

One thing we do here is document the movement.

Part of that is identifying BK fronts and techniques and putting them in context of other research.

For example, I was in denial about the BKs being a cult for many years ... until I started to study cult theory and realised how similar it was.

Ditto, I was in denial about a large part of the BK practise being hypnotic ... until I started to study hypnotic practises and realised how similar they were too. Please note I do not agree that it is *only* hypnosis or self-hypnosis, I agree that there is a "psychic" element too ... however we are to define that.

Actions most certainly do count ... It's not a matter of intentions alone.

I imagine my "spiritual seekings" were as a sincere as any young person's could be, e.g. to walk the (real) "path of Christ" etc (there's a school of thought that believes Christ was a great and accomplished yogi who studied in the Himalayas) but, retrospectively, I cannot dismiss any of the conditions you mention above. I, too, had been inspired by the stories of Vivekanada, Yogananda and even lesser known Western mystic/healers like Murdo Macdonald Bayne.

I too was led to believe BKism was "the highest path" etc ... and held on far too long after I realised I was going no where and it was just all about the Sindhis' doing social climbing and feeding like spiritual parasites off their followers.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016
by human being
@ ex-I:

In urban India BKs derive their popularity from Sister Shivani and other 'speakers' who happen to be English educated, can talk with sophistry (in some cases). These speakers organize workshops etc in offices etc invite people to centers. Once they enter ... well, it depends on center how well it handles them now. If a center is a middle level one, and the guy is VIP type, special efforts are made while for regular folk regular efforts are made.

The thing is psychic energy is not a secondary element in the spread of BKs, it's the central one.

A lot of time educated people (technologists/doctors type) get some kind of 'experience' (as they call it) and stay even if, intellectually, they are not convinced. Now, this 'psychic anesthesia' starts working on them and if they are following basic celibacy they start getting attached to this. I, as I have mentioned, already had some of these experiences in before my BK phase. So,just having them did not convince me that this is work of GOD. Furthermore, this 'connection' weakens one's rational ability without offering any logical solutions to the fundamental contradictions in 'Gyan'.

Whether you live in East or West, BKs grow by a simple mechanism.

A speaker will try to identify with your problems/curiosity and offer you solution if you come to center. Once you come, the 'vibrations' start working on you. You may feel increased sleep, happiness, love etc during your visits/Amrit Vela/Murli reading and, in some cases, 'visions' (no, they are not hallucinations or self-induced).

Then you become addicted to it like a drug and you even forget why did you initially come there. All that matters is become '16 kala sampurna'. Combine that with sticks and carrots treatment at the center where every act of 'seva' is encouraged and real questions, honest introspection is discouraged, then all those churning etc etc Scientiology-like tricks and you get a drone who has simply parroted a few words and is too afraid of loosing his position in this birth and beyond.

Even after leaving you would find yourself shuddering at the mere mention of a flaw in the organization due to this psychological hammering done on you.

The thing is, if someone could detach him/herself from these experiences and observe the Murli objectively, he/she can observe the same kind of thing as he/she would observe in some tarrot card reader or a fortune teller. It fits and sounds logical but is designed in such a way that, basically, it is using a 'crack' (or flaw) in our rational mind to deceive us.

Again I cannot emphasize enough that all these things are valid for basically the 'pakka BK' types only (less than 5% tops).

With regards to the 'action intention' part, my point was that in getting in the specifics of tricks and indulging in name calling does not interest me anymore. I have left it behind and I don't come here to put my frustration out by ranting about a few individuals. Leaving, and not leaving, happens in our heads only.

The reason I wrote all this is that if someone can relate to it he/she has an idea about the path he/she is going to tread.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016
by human being
To everyone here, spirituality is a state of mind or an attitude where as opposed to completely materialistic point of view, we develop enough perspective to see that we are something more than the body (it's true, live with it;)). So, any setback in life is part of the larger game plan of learning of a soul (not a point of light, it's spooky). There is no need to be bitter/resentful that some thing did not work out for you, so it means that the entire thing is a delusion.

Consider it like a love affair. It turns out to be a failed experiment, doesn't mean that you won't try any more.

In fact, trying more is the easiest way to recover from previous failed experiments. Remember Edison, "I did not fail 99 times, I learned 99 ways of not doing what I wanted to do". Do not, and I repeat, DO NOT turn hopeless/bitter/resentful ... spirituality is a serious business. A real seeker (unlike a hippie who is just here for fun, got ya ex-I) never loses hope.

Heal yourself, make friends, and seek truth with all your heart. Never let the feeling of taking revenge upon those who you blame for your sorrow, consume you for it will make you evil at the end. I don't know about you but I don't think I will give up that easily.

Be human.

It was a pleasure interacting with you guys

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016
by ex-l
I guess you are lucky in a way that your "soul" was rooted in Hinduism and you could fall back on the belief in a perpetual spiritual development (and, therefore, an eternally long Cycle of Time).

One of the big trick the BKs have is of compress all of time into their 5,000 year concept of time ... and, "now or never" or "only one life to do it!" mental cage.

For people coming from background who don't particularly believe in eternally reincarnating souls ... I think that hits them harder, e.g. Christianity is a kind of "one life only" experience. In my opinion (I have no evidence to back this up), I suspect Lekhraj Kirpalani borrowed this yukti from Christianity.

If you don't believe in endless rebirths ... never mind endless love affairs ... losing a big chunk of your one life is a big hit.

And here I have you 'human' ... trust me, there are appeals to love affairs with other 20 odd years olds, rather than 50 year olds, and abilities required for them that are "time limited offers" ... and depressing to think you might have to wait another 90 or 180 years (if you land in the wrong sex next life) to try again!

What will the world be like then?

Joking apart (and I am not joking), the important practical thing is, there are times in life to do very practical down to earth things ... to study, to start a career, to create social and professional connections and so on - in every culture - that BKism seriously disrupts and leaves individuals handicapped for the rest of their lives.

Personally, I think the BK leaders, or the spirit of the BKs, wants that. It says so in the Murli. It comes to destroy all other religions, you must destroy all other attachments (relations). It spiritually isolates you, and demands everything from you ... man, tan and dhan (mind, body and wealth) ... every thought, even dreams no less ... and then does what?

I don't know what your final conclusion about BKism is, but mine is that the god spirit of the BKs, and the BK leaders, are basically spiritual parasites ... they are feeding off not just the money and free labour but the spiritual energy of the followers - however you might define that.

Perhaps we get sucked in because we want something for nothing ... instead of dealing with the reciprocal basis of normal human relationships and being part of humanity.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016
by Pink Panther
Human being - there is a hint of presumptive superiority - of ”I know, and I have you guys figured out” in your last posts. I see it because it is something i used to do a lot ( hopefully not anymore).

If you browse these forums you will come across some interesting posts and discussions linking to research on cults, or specific studies on the psychological effects of staring at another human in the eyes, especially under dim lighting, on things like cognitive dissonance, Maslow’s Hierarchy that you mentioned, the Dunning Kruger effect, and other non-scientific, maybe philosophical and psychological topics. I knew some, did not know others, others helped me articulate what I had felt and observed about myself and BKs, life and so on.

My point is - you proclaim your current belief with maybe as much dogmatism as you probably did the BK ‘Gyan’. I hear no circumspection. I read the heading of this topic "BK knowledge is meant for real Indians” and see your proclamations of studying Hindu texts for yourself and understanding them better than BKs, and a kind of pity for us poor Westerners not dissimilar to the OP’s jingoistic ideas.

The commonality of many who come to BKs is a seeking of truth or knowledge, and as you say, we mainly get trapped by, or addicted to, the "experience" which can take many forms (not all experience the ”psychic energy”, for many its ”community”, for others "refuge" - and other things). Some of us do escape these 'mis-association traps' because of the way it conflicts with the original desire for truth & knowledge or a longer term sense of things ”not-quite-right". (I think we’d all agree that truth, knowledge and experience should be in harmony, not dissonant) .

I wish you all the best, but please, beware ahamkara - which is, IMO, the motivation for any belief in soul.

Re: BK knowledge is meant for real Indians

PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016
by ex-l
I had a quick look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and I cannot criticise it or your comments, human.

Perhaps BKism starts to feed at the (egotistical?) need of esteem and respect. One of the obstacles we came across in our efforts to reform to the BKWSU was a sort of protectiveness of the old fraudsters (the senior Sisters) by the middle management under the guise of "showing respect", i.e. not challenging or embarassing them with too difficult questions.

Had BKism set about as a "co-prosperity" community attempting to create a more ethical, more sustainable, more enlightened society, no one could really criticise its intentions. But it did not. And its developed into just another pyramid of exploitation based on manipulation and control ... a few at the top benefiting.

Is it a better society than Indian society? That takes us back to our discussion of "which India"?

As you may know, the BKs have believed and taught their followers that they will take over the Indian government before "Destruction" comes. Whenever that is supposed to be now ...

Well done for seeing through the illusion at such a young age and moving on.