Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

for ex-BKs, exiting BKs, Friends & Family of BKs and newcomers to the forum.
  • Message
  • Author
Offline

Friend

  • Posts: 47
  • Joined: 20 Dec 2014

Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post22 Sep 2016


Hello everyone.

The Devil's advocate is here again.

The thing is (or one of the things) that some BK experiences (in meditation or what the Murlis call "divine visions") are either unique (to my knowledge) or cannot be explained by non-BK logic.

I know people have God, or Christ etc experiences outside the BK context but the experiences BKs have are, even in low-intensity, the rule and not the exception compared with other paths.

I know people also have experiences in Christian churches etc but I don't think it's as usual as with the BKs.

I'd really love some ex-BK to prove (or at least suggest something that makes total sense) who this Shiva is (if it's not God), what that dimension that they call "Home" is, and what the "Subtle Regions" is. Because, with The Knowledge the global spiritual community has, nothing really contradicts what the BKs claim.

Also, as darkly Christianic and profoundly conservative as this "lust sucks big time" BK motto sounds, there is practical evidence and it *has* been shown that sex is detrimental to Raja Yoga experiences.

Am I off-topic again? Probably :p
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1413
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: Please clarify the "sangam yug"...!

Post23 Sep 2016

Friend,

I could attempt to answer your question, but I don't think you would understand.

I am not saying that patronisingly , or to suggest you lack intelligence or anything. What I mean is - if you are truly wanting to know, you will do the research and do what it takes to find out for yourself.

Otherwise, all that will happen will be a ”logical debate” between two people who see things from different positions.

Joke - A person walking along a river wants to get across but cannot find a way.
Eventually they spot someone on the other side and yell out ”How do I get to the other side of the river?”
That person looks up and down the river, then looks back at them and yells ”You are already on the other side”.
:-)
Offline

human being

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2016

Re: Please clarify the "sangam yug"...!

Post23 Sep 2016

Yo friend, wassup?

You are making a lot of assumptions when you say that the experiences cannot be explained by non-BK methods. The thing which makes the 'pakka' BKs so devoted and convinced that The Knowledge is right,in my opinion is exactly this kind of lack of both spiritual/paranormal 'experience' in their pre-BK life. Once they get it they it they simply become fully convinced while in reality the 'experience' basically dumbs down the critical ability of the mind.I cant talk about Christianity because I have little personal experience of it but in India this is absolutely not as rare as many BKs paint them to be.

In fact, from Patanjali to Vivekananda, almost all decent sanyasis/yogis have cautioned the seekers against being influenced by metaphysical experiences and 'visions' are one of them. The main focus should be on understanding the nature of self/life/reality/truth. These experiences present themselves on the path but can become a way to divert you from it.

While many BKs denounce others' experiences, they themselves believe in their teachings so staunchly because all their 'nishchay' is based upon it/them.
Offline

human being

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2016

Re: Please clarify the "sangam yug"...!

Post23 Sep 2016

As far as the question "who Shiv Baba really is?", I wish I knew for sure. I have a few theories/ideas but cannot say for sure and I don't usually speak about things in which I lack conviction/knowledge.

But when you say that BK knowledge does not contradict other 'Global spiritual community', sorry for being blunt, but you are plain wrong there. I am bound to assume that you know little about other New Age stuff let alone ancient traditions.

As far as sex is concerned you are partly right. For simplicity's sake, I will explain it from the tantric view-point rather than the philosophical, simply because I am lazy and am loath to indulge in long debates especially when you are writing it down. The effect of any kind of spiritual practice will be to waken you kundalini, i.e you will feel as if all your 'spiritual energy' is flowing towards the centre of your head. Also, called awakening of chakras.

The more established a practitioner is, be it of any school of thought/practice, the faster this flux of energy will be towards the head. If it is not, know for sure that you are just someone who is practising the wrong way or the wrong path i.e one of the 'crowd'.

When doing sex all the spiritual energy goes towards the lower end of the spinal chord/kundalini and the better this flow towards the downward direction is, the more 'enjoyable' your experience of sex will be. So, they are essentially the opposite of each other. Mind you, that according to this school of thought you can also awaken your kundalini through this downward flow of energy and attain 'sidhhis' but this won't make you wise or enlightened but even more dangerous to society and your own well being. Such people are called 'Tantriks'/Occults.

Hope I did not waste your time.

Bye
Offline

human being

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2016

Re: Please clarify the "sangam yug"...!

Post23 Sep 2016

The point is if you are enlightened you will have some psychic/spiritual powers/siddhis and others might also have some experiences from/through you but just because you have some extra-sensory experiences and you are able to transmit them to others,it does not mean that you are an enlightened guru and it is dangerous and irresponsible to make tall claims which you cannot honestly verify,the plain old common -sense.
Offline

Friend

  • Posts: 47
  • Joined: 20 Dec 2014

Re: Please clarify the "sangam yug"...!

Post23 Sep 2016

@Pink Panther - I think you are too quick to assume we see things differently. I am someone who is interested in the truth, and I believe you are too, so what's our difference?

@human being - Thank you for the reply. Yes, I know I made assumptions about the spiritual experiences people in other paths have. I just thought it did not change my point significantly. Maybe it did. Still, I wanted answers.

I am actually very much aware of New Age teachings (not ancient ones, though) and I find it interesting that, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as using God (aka Source) a lot. They keep asking people to follow their bliss, excitement etc and experiences like the BK ones are ignored. I also think it's weird that most New Age teachers basically say "It doesn't matter what you eat" or "sex and ejaculation are fine." Not everyone says things like that, but in general they seem to make things too easy.

In the BK path, there are many people who can make you cry with one drishti, whereas I've never heard of experiences as intense as that in other paths. I admit, I haven't made research. It's kind of hard to do that. I *have* heard similar things in some guru's path but, again, not that intense.

I could just say that a path that includes a 5000 Cycle of Time in their teachings is just ridiculous, but there seems to be much power in that path that I cannot just throw it away.

Also, when I am talking about visions, I mean things such as experiencing the repetition of time, or your having had 84 births. They might be thought forms but I find it really interesting and intriguing. I haven't had any of those, tbh.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9587
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Please clarify the "sangam yug"...!

Post23 Sep 2016

Friend wrote:Also, as darkly Christianic and profoundly conservative as this "lust sucks big time" BK motto sounds, there is practical evidence and it *has* been shown that sex is detrimental to Raja Yoga experiences.

Is the "practical evidence" regarding 'Raja Yoga' or 'BK Raja Yoga' experiences? How did they work that out ... two "celibate" BKs did meditation to see how they felt ... and then they had sex with other and did meditation again so she how it changed their experience? Or did they try and do BK Raja Yoga while they were making love to see how it changed their experience? It doesn't exactly sound "scientific" to me but it might be fun to try it out!

Personaly, I am more interested in tracing the history right back to the beginning of the cult and examining Lekhraj Kirpalani's initial activity in this department and how it changed so strongly after the reactions of his community. There's evidence which says he took intimate "liberties" with the better looking of the young women during his "God Krishna/God Brahma" phase. (When they believed he was god or was superior to god and there was no mention of God Shiva in the cult).

Is there not a "tantric" element to BKism?

What makes me laugh is that, on one hand, BK say they are not allowed to make love because it will make them "impure" and get in the way of their purifying remembrance ... but, on the other hand, they are perfectly allowed to cheat and steal, defraud tax and visa department etc, lie to government and outsiders, and so on and that's OK ... and that is OK as long as they are remembering their Baba while they do it!

They are really quite clueless. For me, it's all just a facade, a pose of being religious which they've adopted from elsewhere which is useful for them in their social climbing, e.g. pretending to be bogus "top knot Brahmins".

I think, Lekhraj Kirpalani started by feeding off the sexual energy of all the women he surrounded himself with.

If you ask me, making honest love to another person you love and care for is a lot less "impure" that all the hypocrisies the BK get up to.

But, on the other hand, I do accept the realities and complications of sex. I just don't think the BKs are not doing it for "spiritual benefits". I think most BK would actually benefit from a good and realistic sexual experience. I think there was born out of a culture in which bad sexual experiences ruled ... the Sindhi culture which arranged the rape of young women by elderly men, e.g. marrying teenagers off to 50 year old men for the sake of money.

Now, I think the celibacy thing for them it is just all about control, separation and domination of individuals.

--

I think your question "who or what the BK god spirit is?" is a very pertinent one and I encourage individuals to question and pose suggestiones. I think the BKs' greatest audacity is to claim that their god spirit/deceased guru/collective consciousness or otherly worldly beings/whatever it is ... is God.

If they just said that their "god spirit" was *a* god, or *a* higher being, a slightly enlightened deceased Lekhraj Kirpalani, or made up some other story ... then I'd have much less of an objection to their cult.

But the claim that their god is *THE* God, the God of All, the Highest Religion, the only religion to which God speaks etc etc etc is utterly ridiculous on the basis of the actual evidence.

And we know it's also a gradual fabrication which they've modified over the years.

I am sorry but, no. I am absolutely sure that if there is a "god" of humanity, a god of this planet, this realm etc ... then he would be above crap like the BKs have gotten up and would not put up with the crap the BKs have done and continue to do.

If there is actually any "spiritual truth" to existence (which I question) I actually think that the BK god and leaders are on the side of evil. A subtle but very persistent evil.

Although I would have to define what I mean by "evil", that is what all the evidence points to.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9587
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post23 Sep 2016

BTW, asking "who the BK God Spirit really is?" is one thing.

Here's another question for you.
    If you were "God", the "Supreme Soul", even just a god, say "the god of humanity on this planet" ... would you really chose to hang out with the BKs and make them your sole representatives on earth?
"Is it god?" is a simple enough question, "what is it if it is not God?" requires buying into some other largely unprovable belief system.

These days it appears to be such a preposterous idea that I am bewildered by how exactly I ever came to be willing to "suspend my disbelief" long enough even to experiment with the idea that it might be.
Offline

human being

  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2016

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post23 Sep 2016

I have a different take and would approach the question of Shiv Baba later and the psychological background of Dada Lekhraj before and at the time of Shiv Baba's supposed entry. But that would be a long post and will take some time before I can spare half an hour-45 minutes straight. Hope you don't mind the delay.

As far as your observations about New Age stuff are concerned I think you refer to what's going in America and Europe today primarily. Sorry, I am an Indian and did not consider it when I wrote that. But one thing I will say, new or old, the path to enlightenment will have certain similarities all accross the globe because we all are humans after all and those who claim that indulging in free sex etc is all right as it is just a physical and enjoyable experience, I don't buy that at all. Call me orthodox if you will.

My reason is written above. I said that sex is directly related to negative flow of spiritual energy and I fully stand by it as it is my personal experience. You can call it my opinion as scientists simply don't bother to conduct experiments on spiritual matters sadly. Not the mainstream one's at least and they are the ones who count. So, if you relate to my previous post you can easily see why celibacy was glorified to such an extent across all cultures (yes, in the land of kamasutra as well). Because you can associate it to realized masters.

However, forcing people to be celibate is a different matter entirely and backfires in most cases as the accumulated spiritual energy usually requires an outlet and if not provided one it can cause all kinds of psychological problems to the person. If a higher 'chakra'/gateway is not opened in your body and you are practising celibacy, it's like wearing a very tight belt around your waist and keep eating whatever you want in the hope that it would prevent you from getting fat. Or rather a very tight and rigid body suit ;).

The point is, it's the way of an ignorant man. That, in my opinion, is the reason why in most organisations where celibacy is strictly followed, there are so many cases of people doing all kind of crazy stuff like pedophilia etc (watched Spotlight movie yesterday;)). Overdoing celibacy without developing proper 'spiritual maturity' will backfire on anyone and more so if you come from a depression/bipolar background like most BKs, especially when they are not getting 'experiences' regularly.

No, I am pretty sure that even Dadi janki cannot make me cry with her drishti because I now understand to some extent how these things work.

As far as your opinion about 'so much power that I cannot just throw it away' it's totally your decision to make and I am nobody to advise you on that. But let me say this as a compliment to you, you are one of the very few people who I have met (apart from my self of course;)) who despite having strong 'experiences' have maintained a sense of rationality and open mindedness. I suggest you to never compromise with your critical faculties and always be guided by truth as it is the ultimate intoxication as well as a cure for it ;).

bye
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9587
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post24 Sep 2016

human being wrote:... and those who claim that indulging in free sex etc is all right as it is just a physical and enjoyable experience, I don't buy that at all. Call me orthodox if you will.

I am an agnostic as far as it comes to the spiritual effects of sex.

However, my favourite position in this discussion is that "spiritually" someone who is honest and caring, pays their taxes and does not encourage widespread visa fraud ... and has makes love ... is more spiritually elevated that a dishonest, hypocritical, manipulative Brahma Kumari leader who does not and is obsessed with controlling others sexual activity.

Religious hierarchies, which I think you would agree are usually the opposite of real spirituality, seem to be largely based on the obsession of controlling others sexual activity ... and we can look to the like of Freud and the libido to explain why.

In the West, the BKs often sell themselves as beign in some way "feminist". I'd be interested to read your opinion of that from an enlightened Indian point of view. I'd guess you would also agree that patriarchal Indian societies are also obsessed, specifically with controlling female sexual energy/expression as a way of keeping them down and keeping them controlled, rather than for any spiritual benefit.

Others more educated than I am have commented upon how the Brahma Kumaris leaders aren't so much "feminist" - that is to say they are really not interested in the empowerment, independence and rights of women - but rather their interest is in "being on top" and usurping the patriarchal position in order to subjugate and exploit less dominant/submissive females ... again primarily by the nigh impossible aim of controlling their libido/sexual energy. Even to the point of 24 hour a day, 'in your dreams' vigilance against sexual thoughts or emotions complete with confessions to elders.

They say they do so to encourage a 24 hour a day union with their (male) god spirit ... which takes us back to a discussion of who or what it is ... exploiting a very traditional romantic/devotional "Bhakti" type of love with an invisible, uncontrollable, quixotic Krishna like lover. Their "Baba". To do so they say one must destroy all other attachments and never think or exchange energy with any other.

I think that's just about "milieu control" ... total social control and the exclusion of any external influences which might question their influence and control ... not spiritual benefits.

I also think that, typical to their habits, they compromise on the responsibilities of real spiritual leadership (actually, I don't think they really have a clue what real spirituality is), one of which would be to ask whether the individual is trully ready and suitable to accept such a path. In their lust to get "more bums on their seats", the BKs are willing to take in and encourage almost any one wishing to join them for any reason ... to sometimes disastrous ends.

I've forgotten most of what I've read about the thoughts of great Indian thinkers on the subject. Although his experiment failed, I actually think Osho/Rajneesh was one of the few brave ones who was willing to 'grasp the nettle' and face and discuss the place of making love and sex openly and honestly ... and look what happened to him. Look how conservative/orthodox India responded.

The BKs are as screwed up about sex as the rest of India or perhaps even moreso. They're like a female version of the Roman Catholic Church. Funnily enough, old Lekhraj Kirpalani himself enjoy it fully to a ripe old age and certainly enjoyed the sensual company of the young women in the early phase of the cult. I think it was only the reaction of the more orthodox non-BK community around him that brought an end to that.
Offline

Friend

  • Posts: 47
  • Joined: 20 Dec 2014

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post24 Sep 2016

I haven't had personal strong experiences, and that might have allowed me to be more critical than if I would have had them. I had *some* experiences and I've heard of others' more powerful ones. I was certainly amazed at how a skype call with someone in Mnt Abu made me feel better at a difficult time. Also, a strong drishti has at least the power to wake you up.
Offline

GuptaRati 6666

  • Posts: 225
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2015

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post24 Sep 2016

In some shamanic traditions, sex should be avoided by the lay persons, if they are undergoing treatment and by those in the spiritual community, if they are in specific stages of their training. I know that in the case of athletes, sex before major competitions can be helpful to performance in the competitions. That has also been my personal experience, which is not anecdotal.

Was Jesus not married to Mary Magdalene and lived a life based on the traditions of the pharaohs? Many of the saints in the early Christian church were married. Paul and Agustin are two examples. There is even evidence that Paul had an affair with Emperor Nero's wife and got her pregnant. There are couples who are highly spiritual and enjoy healthy sex
lives.
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1413
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post25 Sep 2016

Of course there are a lot of aspects to this complex topic, this is just one. The salient point here is, carrying on from other points about choosing celibacy for whatever reason, or choosing one person over another, whether celibate or sexually active, who does your choice serve? It reveals what fundamental authority you bow to.

Where a society has a hierarchy, like a monarchy, or chief, or the BKs, or the RC Church, the rules around sex are governed by those in charge. Because sex is a strong biological imperative, the one who can dominate that area of life will consequentially have authority over other areas of their subjects’ lives.

In many mammal species, of which humans are one, there is the dominant male who gets the pick of the females for his mating. He also has his duty, to protect the group.

In human society, we have sublimated the brute strength of the individual as the sole way of determining who is dominant, in authority, and replaced it with other means - power through wealth, social influence - as opposed to physical coercion, alliances - gang leaders, fame or admiration of those we venerate for some special ability etc. For different people these can be different ‘aphrodisiacs”. Even for example, being attracted to a ”rebel” or ”bad boy” who is expressing a certain power by not submitting to the authorised power!

There is an anecdote told by Jane Goodall, who researched chimpanzees, of how the female chimps would sneak off from the group to mate with the exiled male chimp who lost to the dominant male. In this case, less a matter of attraction to a ‘rebel’ as such, more probably it's the primal drive of species survival, a biological ‘intelligence' that seeks genetic diversity.

That authority that determines the rules may be a person, or in the case of BKs, RCs and other religious movements, it can be the person or group of people who claim to represent an even ”higher”, unchallengeable, unbeatable authority (who is given credit in life’s victories but when things go badly is excused by the ”unknowable mystery” of such a supremely superior being).

In the case of Jews, a small clan in a hostile environment, their protection and survival as a group was to follow the patriarch who was told by ”a higher authority" to ”go forth and multiply” i.e. sex is a sacred covenant of Judaism. The Catholics banned sex for its priests about 1000 years into their history to avoid claims over property by their children. Instead, whatever property a priest brought to the church went to the church.

Those who want to be under the protection the dominant authority, whether provided by the strongest silverback gorilla or under the divine power and protection of Jesus or god, will accept the rules laid down by that authority , or his self-proclaimed spokesman!

Like Winston Smith in 1984, once you’ve given up your love to the authority - for fear of what ‘the authority' can do to you - you have also given up your right to love whomever you want and in whatever way you want. From that moment on, you will instead love that authority with all your heart. You have replaced the love that threatens you with the love that protects you.
Offline

GuptaRati 6666

  • Posts: 225
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2015

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post25 Sep 2016

Pink, your excellent points are well taken. The bottom line is the birth of babies by sexual union/love. If sex is such a great sin how will the world population increase? Who will replace the aging population in the workforce of the global community?

There is another aspect to sex and its pleasures, and its relationship to social status. It is the psychological stress and the effects of the stress suffered by members of a society lower down in the power pyramid. The field studies of Robert Salposki at Stanford University of baboons are instructive and has been applied to human neuro-psychology. Those primates at the base of the pyramid, or close to it, can suffer stress resulting in cerebral neuronal degeneration.

There seems to be a similar situation in the BK society and similar organizations. Glucocorticoids, hormones produced during chronic stress has been demonstrated to reduce the threshold of degeneration of the hippocampus. Meditation reduces or antagonizes stress, even at the level of nucleic acid transcription and translation. For the BKs close to the base of the BK pyramid, the question is: How much does their meditations antagonize the effects of chronic stress induced hippocampal damage?

Brahmacharya has its benefits for the spiritual student, including the student of the spiritual types of Yoga. Life-long brahmacharya is not for every soul on earth. It may be useful for a single digit percentage of individuals who in this life needs to go to spiritual extremes.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9587
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post25 Sep 2016

Thank you for adding a brain/neurological consideration to this discussion. It's a very serious area of science, and issue, which the BKs and many other amateur "esoteric" cults are blythely ignorant of. One that I should read up more about.

Off the cuff, I would say that BKs are likely vulnerable to such influences, especially when combined by restricted diets.

I noted how quickly the health of normally attractive young Indian women would decline and you could see the evidence in their faces.

I am certainly not anti-vegetarian diets, but I have a concern about the effects of insufficient lifelong vegetarian diets on the brain.
Pink Panther wrote:In many mammal species, of which humans are one, there is the dominant male who gets the pick of the females for his mating. He also has his duty, to protect the group.

The working theory I keep returning to, is that understand BKism, one has to know a little about the jati (caste) or culture they came out of. One, as you say, has evolved over 100,000s of years from primate through primitative and feudal eras.

From what you are saying, I'd say that not only is there a biological tendency towards "alpha male" type set up amongst a few but that, therefore, there must biological tendency towards submissive patterns amongst the many.

In BKism, the alpha male was, and obviously still is, Lekhraj Kirpalani. Indeed, looking right back to the beginning of the cult, it arose due to a conflict between the community's "Silverback" and his senior males - the Mukhi Mangharam and the Bhaibund leaders - and the would be alpha male, Lekhraj Kirpalani. And the conflict was over the 'ownership' of females.

In their community, the Bhaibund not only had control over the sexual expression of the females - limiting it to none except during 'reproduction periods' on the males' return to the tribe (albeit the males having the opportunity to spread their seed during long periods away); they also had control over the choice of mates and mating via their control over who was allowed to marry whom (endogamous arranged marriages much for the sake of family and financial interests).

Now, take that model and apply it to BKism and what they are doing, the elder females taking on the male leadership roles, controlling the sexual emotional activity of primarily submissive females and arranging the "marriages" (e.g. of center-in-charges and junior Sisters) for the sake of the BK family business.

Of course, they say they are focusing everyone's attention on their god and now deceased alpha male ... but really they are just maintaining their own all power socially dominant position as the only direct proxies for the deceased alpha male.

That's just a rough sketch to start discussions, not something I've spent much time considering.

Yes, I accept the practise of celibacy can be a useful tool but, no, I don't think the BKs have any idea what they are doing with it, and are just using it - as with the Bhaibund's endogamous arranged marriages and your reference to the Roman Catholic Church's real estate interests - to keep the wealth and property within the cult and to maintain their status free from the challenge of any more rational, intelligence, powerful, attractive external influences ... all of which are portrayed as being evil and devillish.

A world in which the likes of Janki and Jayanti Kirpalanis are seen, and portrayed by their secondary division, as having the highest intelligences and spiritual integrities.
endogamy

- the custom of marrying only within the limits of a local community, clan, or tribe.
Next

Return to Newcomers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests