Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post25 Sep 2016

Thank you Ex-I,

I think the papers and books by Eliade and Winkleman are excellent resources on investigations on Yoga. In terms of Yoga, shamanism, and altered states of consciousness, Winkleman's papers are very detailed.

http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-21-89-02-115.pdf

Hollywood tried to produce a movie on Yoga and shamism and made a mess of it in 1982. The film was also meant to be a fictional biography of Dr. John Lilly, the inventor of sensory deprivation tanks, which are now used in many spas. Lilly also did interesting studies on the metaphysics and consciousness in dolphins. The name of the movie: Altered States.

I have used the papers and books of both investigators for some of my own papers on Yoga and shamanism. The practice of BK Raj Yoga can elicit a shaministic experience, which the BK system seems unable to adequately address, especially among Western aspirants or novices. I agree with you that a person's health can be reflected in their facial beauty.

I may be accused of being body conscious in my observations. I know two Sisters, both Indians and BKs. Both are attractive or beautiful. One Sister who was promoted to high ranks in the BK system seemed able due to her ability of express herself sexually has aged gracefully while maintaining her beauty. The other Sister who is much younger but subjected to lots of stress and not promoted highly, now looks much older than the Sister who is chronologically her senior.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post26 Sep 2016

You took my post and the conversation where I hoped you would ex-l.

The patriarchal traditional values in the BKs are sustained through the agency of the matriarchy. They give it a soft front. BK men emasculate themselves submitting to a ”supreme Father” whom they trust to bring them security and prosperity in their "after lives" and help them be cleansed of the base urges which their societies have taught them are only used in selfish ways.

In Tantric Buddhism, and hinduism there are paths of celibacy and paths of sex. The use, gains, traps and diversions of either path is there for the tantrika to discover. That is, what's beneficial for one person at a certain time of their development is not necessarily beneficial at other times, or for another person.

The denigration of sex, the body, and the material world itself was a corruption of dualistic philosophies that took hold through later neo-platonists who mistook what their founders, and even Plato, meant. Many of the neo-prudes, like St Augustine, had previously been living hedonistic lives, i.e. indulging to excess, which is, by definition, not good. They then experience the benefits of abstinence and then lay the shame trip on others, linking it with all kinds of punishments and outcomes.

You don’t find Jesus or Buddha denigrating sex. At most they warn against what unchecked desire does for a person’s equanimity. The logical consequence of that is that for some people, abstinence is 'the way' for them to attain what they think they should attain.
A woman takes a lover during the day, while her husband is at work.

One day, her 9-year-old son hides in the closet during one of her romps. Her husband comes home unexpectedly, so she hides the lover in the closet.

The little boy says, "It's dark in here isn’t it?"
The man whispers, "Yes, it is."
Boy - "I have a baseball."
Man - "That's nice."
Boy - "Want to buy it?"
Man - "No, thanks."
Boy - "My dad's outside."
Man - "OK, how much?"
Boy - "$250."

In the next few weeks, it happens again that the boy and the mom's lover end up in the closet together.

Boy - "It's still dark in here."
Man - ”Shhh. Yes, it is."
Boy - "I have a baseball glove for sale."
Man - Remembering last time, asks, "How much?"
Boy - "$750."
Man - "Fine."

A few days later, the Father says to the boy, "Grab your ball and glove. Let's go outside and toss the baseball."

The boy says, "I cannot. I sold them."

The Father asks, "How much did you sell them for?"

The son says "$1,000."

The Father says, "It's terrible to overcharge your friends like that. That's way more than those two things cost. I am going to take you to church for confession."

They go to the church and the Father makes the little boy sit in the confession booth and he closes the door.

The boy says, "It's dark in here."
The priest says, "Don't start that crap again!"
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ex-l

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post26 Sep 2016

Therefore, another problem is that people come to BKism for all sort of other reasons other than to climb to which ever heights or extremes total celibacy takes one.

They come along for whatever reason; peace of mind, a mild neurosis, family or relationship problems, depression or addiction ... and then are hooked and dragged into the BKs' "one size fits or cures all" package. The rate at which they adopt it being dependent on their discomfort, escapism rather than real need or destiny.

One goes along believing one to be gaining corporate management skills ... and ends up becoming Shankarachyara.

Obviously not every one is or is ready to be Shankarachyara ...

Then the rate at which one comes down from it, or does not come down for it, is dependent on other pre-established traits, e.g. your Roman Catholic or Hindu guilt/shame.

Given that one can become a "BK teacher" with little more than enthusiasm and a willingness to conform" in a few months, is it not a dangerous thing to have such individuals out there guiding others to equivalent but opposite excesses?

I think - despite the BKs' protestations to the opposite - in Lekhraj Kirpalani, we had a similar flip-flop. Certainly his early period with his wife and the young women was indulgent. I think the rigid celibacy was actually adopted later on so as to avoid the criticisms that they had incurred during the early period.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post27 Sep 2016

ex-l wrote: I think the rigid celibacy was actually adopted later on so as to avoid the criticisms that they had incurred during the early period.
I think it was because he got older, his testosterone & libido dropped away and he thought he’d conquered ”sexlust”.

Like any guru who is about cultivating his own narcissism, he taught that everyone should be like him. i.e at age 60+ he did not conquer lust, he merely lost the capacity, the impulse and the interest and being the self-deluding shill he was, used that post-manopausal state to proclaim how spiritually exemplary he was.
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ex-l

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post27 Sep 2016

I am not sure ... unless there's strong evidence of a male menopause in his life story or we accept he had a mental health issue, see below.

Things to factor in are;
    a) His real age at the start of the cult around 1932 ... the BKs are *manic* about hiding this and covering up the "60 years old" lie.

    He was 48 in 1932 when he started his cult. He was only 52 in the 'fabled' 1936.

    How was your "sex lust" or peckerwood at those ages? By his achievements, he was clearly a highly virile man. A Donald Trump of his community.

    b) The age of his youngest children. He was still sexual active into his 40s, and breeding late into his life.

    c) The admittance of their 'blameless indulgence' in the court case proceedings by Om Radhe, e.g. his "pulling" of the young women's breasts and mouth to mouth feeding of them, and the strength of reaction within the community against them.

    The BKs portray the outsiders as being impure and decadent. I think the evidence clearly shows it was the other way around. I think the evidence shows the BKs have a chamelion-like character that picks up and molds itself to whatever sells. I think they adopted the 'neo-purity' example from outside sources such as Sadhu Vaswani and his school for young women.

    d) His partner's - who the BKs portray in a reasonable light - provided a witness statement under oath to the court as to him "not being a moral man". What did that hint at?

    e) His demented "spiritual marriage" with the young and attractive Om Radhe.
I think there is a big question to ask regarding his mental health. This is a big taboo in India full stop, nevermind within the BKs. Listening to external witness accounts during the early Mount Abu period, they say he had a habit of drifting off and "disappearing" even during conversations with others.

The BK, of course, portray this a some kind of divine active or connection with god ... but could it have just been some kind of mental health issue, like a sort of manic depression etc? A mental health issue that would connect with other symptoms during the era his family thought he was having a mental breakdown ... again which the BKs portray as the rise of his divinity?

It's hard for us to know or be sure from this distance and age but, fair enough, if there was some kind of mental health issue or depression, then the demise of his libido, aka "conquering sex lust", could well have been part of the symptoms.

It is very common for people suffering from depression to lose all sexual desire.

This is purely conjectural, but I would have to ask how all the failures of his Self-as-God, End of the World and Royalty chasing proclaimations effected him? Would you not be hugely embarrassed and depressed coming down from such silliness?

Those, along with all the planet sized doom and gloom of willing the Destruction of humanity, are typical of the kind of expansiveness and exaggeration of manic depressives. These, to me, are elements we cannot dismiss easily until fully explored. That the BKs will not explore them properly - are in a strong denial about them - suggests to me that they have a strong likelihood.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post27 Sep 2016

It can be a case of ”And” rather than "either/or”. That is, could be any of the above, all of them, and possibly yet unspecified reasons. That is, all the issues you raise, plus the effect of age, diet, purpose and whatever else etc.

Even if he was 48 in 1932, that actually explains the early, ill-disciplined behaviour and how that changed over the years as he dealt with criticisms & scandals, stresses of money running out, predictions failing (self-doubt) along with the natural droop off (sister in charge) due to age and lifestyle. I reckon he also felt guilty at his own ”weaknesses” given the values of the culture around him.

The whole sattwic diet thing after all is about lowering physical ”agitations” - and it seems to work all things being equal. Tried over centuries, Brahmins avoid foods that kshatriyas and the rest eat because unlike the two-faced arse-based scholars & bludgers who ungratefully demean those that feed them, they aren’t going to be fed by anyone else, they have to do the hard work and the fighting etc themselves so they have to have stamina and energy to ''put out”.

Of course, older men can get just as randy-minded, but physically not as "urgently”, enduringly, or as often as when they were young (hence the whole new big money industry of Viagra etc) and they need more recovery time. An aged Taoist master on some documentary I saw years ago once said that at his age he rations himself to have sex only once every three months.

If older men are actually making effort to not be excited, while at the same time live a lifestyle (diet and activity) to limit ‘fitness' in that area - (I’ve seen fundamentalist Christians walk around with sign-boards denouncing the sinful lusts that arise form eating any protein!!) - if they have a social and other reasons to be non-sexual, they can quite easily be. (Or I should say, we can be, having been there & done that, even as young men!)

When Rupert Murdoch recently remarried at age 84 to Jerry Hall, 59, one of the guests was Barry Humphreys (aka Dame Edna Everidge) who commented to a journalist that it was hard work deciding on a wedding present for a couple who seemed to have everything. When pushed to tell what he had ended up getting them as a present, with a twinkle in his eye and quick as a flash, Humphreys replied "David Beckham and a pair of jumper leads”.
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ex-l

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post02 Oct 2016

Do either of you think there could be any tantric-like exchange of sexual energies between Lekhraj Kirpalani or BapDada and his inner circle?

Not "sex" but whatever you call that energy?

The BKs want to simplify or dumb down the entire equation to "body + soul" and not acknowledge anything spiritual in between ... but I've often wondered - if there is such a thing as Lekhraj Kirpalani/BapDada - whether it is just keeping itself afloat by drawing on all sorts of other psychic energies from its adherents?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post03 Oct 2016

Short answer - IMO yes.

Long answer - Given that Lekhraj Kirpalani and Baba are males, real to those who knew him and an archetype to the rest, I am sure some of them experience something like that.

Frank Zappa famously said the most erotic organ of the body was the brain. I remember giving the intro course to a most beautiful woman, and when we sat in meditation, me giving dristi, I was concentrating so hard top stay '’spiritual” disciplining or sublimating what else I wanted to give her, trying to keep my mind on track, that the effort created quite a tension that was as close to foreplay and 'holding off’ as one gets without making a mess! It was both frightening and exciting at the same time. I held it together (barely) but walked home shaking. I am pretty sure my state did not go unnoticed by the woman who was obviously ‘wise to the ways of the world’.

Tantrics apparently can orgasm without ejaculating and say that one should be able to both produce an orgasm purely with thoughts - no physical activity / manual labour ( :D ) and be able to stop an orgasm as well, or any thought activity for that matter, at any moment by trained mental control.

Women and men could easily sit and mentally create a bio-neuro-chemical state with their emotions projected at the Baba picture as well as any teenage girl does with her pop idol pinup or any boy does with his fantasy relationship with the movie starlet in the magazine. They’d call it some kind of ‘tapasya’, seed stage, samadhi, ecstasy or whatever, who can say what another person is feeling in their meditation and if the names for those feelings mean the same to both people?
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Mr Green

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post03 Oct 2016

crikey!
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ex-l

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post04 Oct 2016

Someone needs to do a "Confession of a Raj Yogi Instructor" spoof movie.

Yeah, that 'one-on-one' dhristi business could be pretty hot sometimes. I mean, what did they expect sitting two adults down in a warm, darkened, red light lit room together staring lovingly into each other eyes!?!

Elsewhere on this forum there is a link to scientific study regarding how starring into others' eyes actually leads to them falling in love.

Were we really just hooking people in that way? It's certainly a very quick way to break down barriers and force intimacy between individuals. Not necessarily physical intimacy but even just mental and emotional intimacy. And the BKs are not the only ones to use it, it appears everywhere from Scientology to drama workshops to other personal grown technique groups.

To answer that question re "hooking", I'd say "not entirely but ... yes, partly".

I actually do believe that there was something else going on, some kind of psyche overshadowing by the BK spooks.

As a related disclosure, I am pretty sure one of my female "students" actually had a little orgasm during one of our meditations. I won't say why exactly, it's a little too "NSFW" and graphic. Of course, at the time I did not actually ask her, "how was it for you?" as I was being pure.

One-on-one meditations really were a bit of a loaded gun to hand out to young virile adherents.

On the other hand, pity the poor new students who got the likes of Sister Joan as their teacher (remember her?). No such problems there ...

So who was your hottest dhristi session?
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Mr Green

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post04 Oct 2016

Hottest drishti was definitely Jayanti.
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ex-l

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post04 Oct 2016

Secrets are out now ... oo-er, Mr Green.

So, please allow me to ask ... was that all projection, or reciprocated?
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Mr Green

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post05 Oct 2016

it was complicated!!!!
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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post07 Oct 2016

Mr. Green, Ex-I, and Pink the last bits of your discussion had me in fits of stitches. Even now I am blushing. The dristi one on one interaction can get overheated and quite out of hand. Pink, when I was a young BK, I did have a similar situation to yours. However, I was able to keep the situation under much greater control. The young lady was very beautiful.

There is one social aspect that many forget about the BK socio-cultural dynamics. It is the "soulmateship". Like it or not, once we become BKs there is the "soulmateship" connection that has to be taken care of very carefully. As BKs to each other, the karmic threads or ropes or chains are extremely strong and so are the karmic accounts between BK members.

Sometimes the over energies can simply spill over and result in romantic relationships. It can even happen in dreams.
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ex-l

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Re: Sex and who the BK God Spirit really is?

Post07 Oct 2016

GuptaRati 6666 wrote:Sometimes the over energies can simply spill over and result in romantic relationships. It can even happen in dreams.

I know a Brother who got banned from Madhuban precisingly because "it" did "spill over" in dreams (real story) ... but I know that's not what you meant.

Yeah, we are here to have a good laugh at all the incredible ironies, stupidity, and circumstances we put ourself into. It's very healing.

The big question is though ... does the end justify all the means in the meanwhile? As in its expressed aim and object?

If BKism is 99% bullsh*t ... was all the denial, confusion and prepression worth it? Should we not have just gone along with those feelings and connections and made something creative out of our lives?

You're still buying into the BK explanation for things designed to keep parties separate?

Could another interpretation of it not be that the Baba soul is just ultimately destructive and aims to separate and destroy the threads that bind humanity together at any level possible, crush human love, split up soul mates destined to be together to be something great, break apart families that were destined to grow and succeed themselves ... to, ultimately, wiping out all other civilisation apart from some kind of orthodox Hinduism?

Is the ultimately deception not that all the above - which they do do - is in some way spiritually beneficial?

On a serious level, what you are talking about, or proposing, are unions between real individuals while they are out of their physical bodies during sleep.

I understand what you are saying. I hope it's true (because I've some good ones!) ... but it's a model which does not fit at all into the BK model.

The BKs are utterly silent about any other realms of expression and interaction apart from this one - the worldly one - and their "Subtle Regions".

Their "Subtle Regions" do not even account for concepts such as "astra realms", or the many layered spirituals worlds, of other traditions. Traditions all over the world, accounted for for all time, as far as we know.

I, personally, cannot say I "know" such things are real ... but I tend to believe they are more real than it just all being part of our own projection. Yes, some of it own projection but I tend to believe there is stuff going on that is *way* beyond our individual creation.

So, back to Mr Green's experience ... you and Jayanti "behind the bicycle shed" in the Subtle Regions at break time?
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