Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

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ex-l

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post22 Dec 2016

Never think you have not understood it. You have absorbed it perfectly. The truth is, there is very little to understand. It's more a question of whether you accept it. And accepting it requires blind faith because it cannot be understood.

You cannot "understand" BK knowledge, you can only accept or reject it.

I always remember the founders and leaders of the BKs were very uneducated about the world, about religion, about philosophy, about how to think. They were pretty much empty vessels who were kept hidden from the world. The Om Mandli women from the Sind lived in closed houses, only went out covered up, and did not go to school,r ead books or newspapers. They followed their parents, then they followed their husband and in-laws. They were designed to be submissive. Lekhraj Kirpalani became their husband [Prajapati] and they followed him unquestioningly.

The tradition is one of following seniority, not questioning and challenging.

I've read your posts, sukh.

I also remember similar conversations in my own mind, and with my BK peers. You've obviously swallowed the BK knowledge whole and still have additional capacity to churn it around in your mind. That to me suggests your "Operating System" is bigger than its "Operating System". Your "Operating System" has swallowed its "Operating System" and is turning it around, taking it apart, trying it out to see how it works ... and has come up with logical and operational problems.

Let's start at the bottom. Regarding the energy 'ShivBaba energy' you say, "It's got to be".

I ask, "why?". Why does it have to be? Because you've been told it is? What if someone at the start had told you ShivBaba was 'a god' rather than 'The God' allowing some space for variances. What is someone at the start had told you Lekhraj Kirpalani was 'an enlightened master', not "The Father of Humanity", again, allow some leeway for his short comings, eccentricity and failings.

What if they had said, Lekhraj Kirpalani is just a highly competent human being who has rise one of two levels up above the majory of humanity but still had far to go as far as other enlightened masters?

If they had, then you could have been more accepting of their failures.

Likewise the organization. Again, they claim to be the highest education and have all the answers you need. They claim their teachers are the highest most knowledgeful souls. Are they really?

Would the highest most knowledgeful souls need to claim to be the highest most knowledgeful souls? Would they need to be told day in day out that they are the highest most knowledgeful souls?

What sort of person needs and does that?

What sort of people need to call themselves a "University" when what they teach is at a child-like level? And why don't they have answers for all the problems or contradictions?

You are asking yourself the kind of questions we also asked ourselves about other mystic, spiritual or psychic dimensions ... knowledge or experiences of them have existed for 1,000s of years, in all traditions and cultures, and yet the so called Supreme "University of God" has no knowledge of them, nor how they fit into their philosophy.

Would a "master" really need to teach "Krishna is not God ... Krishna is not God ... Krishna is not God" 10,000s, instead of simply sitting down with the more intelligent members of the class and answering all their questions directly.

I am sorry to be blunt, but I think BKism is held back because its rulers are stupid and vain, and cannot even see or admit how stupid, how small minded they are. Their "greatness" appears to be based on telling themselves 10,000 times how great they are ... instead of actually being it.

It sounds to me you are doing what we all tried to do ... trying to make it fit, to make it into something it is not, trying to sustain the idealistic ideal of a "Supreme Being" ... indeed, "the Supreme Being" ... when the fact is, the immediate reality does not measure up to that by 1,000 miles. The evidence we see does not sustain the claims, and the counter-indications are to huge they cannot be ignored.

As BKs, for a long time after leaving BKs, many wrestle with those contradictions. We want there to be a God Father, we want their to be a one and only God Father, and we want ourselves to be a member of a special inner circle who recognises that being as a one and only God Father. But it is or he really?

We even spend many years apologising and making excuses for the contradictions and failings. The BKWSU has spent years developing all sort of them, and defends both their god spirit and their leaders from really being confronted by such questions. But, for me, there comes a point when one has to admit ... it just does not all add up. And if it does not add up, and it cannot be The Supreme God, then the question arises ...
    "Who or what is it that would claim to a Supreme God when they are not a Supreme God?
A similar question stands for Lekhraj Kirpalani ...
    What sort of man would claim to a God, or Superior to God for 20 years - as he did - before realising that they were not God?
Then ...
    What sort of God would put up with a man claiming to a God, or Superior to God for 20 years, as they did?
And ...
    What sort of man and what sort of god would cover up and hide such mistakes, make false predictions of Destruction for decades in order to dupe people out of their homes, wealth and lives?
Sure not an ethical god or "Father" ... can an Age of Truth really be built on a foundation of lies?

If so, then it strikes me that Lekhraj Kirpalani or the BKs have a very poor ideal of what a Father figure is or should be like?

It's like when "BapDada" comes, the old ones surround him on the stage as if to stop others getting to him, especially the young and bright ones who might ask such questions ... and reveal what is going on. That's it's just Gulzar making things up.

Then we get into the scientific challenges to the god of the BK's "knowledge", of which there are many. Even the practical elements of the predictions (e.g. how it is possible to go from Destruction now to heaven on earth by 2036, and the sinking and rising of the continents).

Sadly, when I pressed the likes of Dadi Janki ... and, at that time, we used to meet with only 5 or 10 people in the room with her ... even she did not have answers; and when pushed for answers, she got irrated and angry and would subtly "attack" students.

Some people here even used to meet with BapDada when BKs still had one to one or small group meetings ... and he did not have answers either.

human being

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post22 Dec 2016

To sukhshmbindu,

Hi...So you started as an innocent student and jumped directly into 'seva mode' though you still have a lot of doubts apparently and trying to fit a lot of pseudo-scientific terms as is common among various young people from our background.

From what I have learnt about spirituality,its not about what you know intellectually but how clearly can you see the reality or truth is what determines a persons spiritual growth. So,instead of taking things for granted like brahmapuri, Soul World, Confluence Age or even the word soul itself and than trying to fit various physics equtions/concepts into your world I would request you with folded hands to calm your mind and be detached from your conscious/intellectual mind for a bit and ask your self a few questions.

1) How do you know any of these things are even real, i.e to what extent you have felt them in your experience? If they weren't taught to you by BKs would you have any clue about them? From what I can guess about you is that you have felt the 'current/vibrations' while reading Murlis or 'meditating/remembering Baba' and have felt happiness and love peace etc.I very much doubt that your experiences go any further in any kind of spirituality outside of BKs and that is what more than anything has convinced you that whatever you are told by BKs/Baba is revealed truth and everything has to somehow conform with it. This is not the sign of a spiritually aware person but a brainwashed person. Correct me if I am wrong and please forgive me as well.

2) Have you ever paused to even think that those 'souls' who live in sub-saharan Africa which are not even there in Satyug/treta and hence are of very recent origion are are therefore supposed to be of very recent origin, how come they do not get any good time at all as according to 'Gyan' each soul gets 75% happy time and 25% miserable time with the last time as the worst? As a matter of fact most of the population of the planet is supposed to be of 1/2 birth kind (pichadi me machhar misal). That means that the majority population on this planet is a new commer and hence ought to be enjoying there golden/silver ages while statistically speaking most people are struggling to even meet there basic needs. While here you are preaching about souls who get to rule the world kalp after kalp even if the majority souls be damned to rot in utter misery and don't even spare a thought for those poor souls and we a re supposed to believe that the drama is kalyankari just because it is benificial to us being BKs. This is the sign of an elitist drunk on his money and living in his bubble and not a kind hearted good human let alone an angel/deity.

3) When India's Mars orbital mission's life will be up it will be crashed on to the surface of the Mars. Pretty much all space missions end like that. So should its remains be cleansed by BKs though meditation so that in the next Kalpa when the same mission will be sent there it wont even detect a trace of an earlier mission?

Can things get even more absurd than that?

I will write in more detail after sometime. See you on this forum again. Bye.
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ex-l

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post22 Dec 2016

You make some important points that I would like to underline. The first is ...
    "Do the mathematics"
Sit down with a pencil and paper and work out the birth numbers according to BK philosophy and known or accepted world populations, e.g. the BKs say in Golden Age, 2 adults have 2 children for 8 generations ... hence practically zero population growth. Silver Age 2 adults have 3 children ... how do we get to 330,000,000? Then, as human points out ... measure the ups and down of recent world population.

How would a one birther in the middle of the Amazon get to hear about BKism to earn their one birth next Kalpa, and why?

It's the same problem taken from Christianity where only by being saved by Christ can you go to heaven. Saved by Christ saved by Kirpalani ...

Secondly, as he points out regarding to space junk ... in theory if The Cycle repeats every 5,000 years for eternity ... how quickly would ALL of the metal in the world be sent into space?

If there is another explanation, then it also proves the BK concept is false.

I too have experience the drug-like addictive highs (intoxication) of BKism. I do not argue against them. They do exist. It is a high. They can provoke all the emotions you and active BKs speak of. I admit that.

They are what they are ... intoxication ... not what the BKs lead us to conclude what they are. Be as careful of making decisions under their influence as you would making decisions under the influence of alcohol etc.

We get drunk, and then fall over, and someone robs our wallet.

Friend

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

To be fair, it's not just the Murli and meditation that give experiences. The Dadi's have very often make people cry through their drishti or make them feel like a strong current went through them. I have to admit that that is quite impressive. I don't think the Pope has that effect on people. Or even Vivekananda, but I admit I don't know much about him.

About the space debris, I agree but I just thought of something: Theoritically, just as the Earth can take any material and decompose and transform it, the same thing could happen with some human object left on the Moon or any planet. Though that leaves us wondering about the sattelites orbiting Earth...

Also, I have heard and 100% believe of an experience that showed time repeats itself. I am not saying it's true, but the experience of it was definitely true. And, of course, the older members might have had lots of experiences they have not necessarily shared with others.

What I am saying is, for a group with some that far-fetched ideas, many things have actually been confirmed. But, absolutely, some things seem either unlikely to be proven accurate, or plain crazy.
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ex-l

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

What many things have been "confirmed"?
Friend wrote:To be fair, it's not just the Murli and meditation that give experiences. The Dadi's have very often make people cry through their drishti or make them feel like a strong current went through them.

Pop stars and movies do the first ... and, of course, many holy people do the latter. Far stranger and more powerful things go on. How much of it is just self-induced wishfulment or hysteria? (Some but not all, I would agree). Deny people love and physical comforts from any other source, perhaps people who have never had love, stress them out ... what are they going to do?

Personally, I've felt nothing from any Dadi but have felt "strong current" from a simple, no name Christian healer priest were were sent to servel. Even just from a rock someone brought back which had been blessed by a holy man in the Himalayas. My strongest experience were generally had during taking the course when I would say I was overshadowed by other influences beyond myself. Some kind of psychic experience, nor spiritual.

My point on this matter is always, "OK, yes, so what ...". I know there are "experiences". I admit they happen. I had many. But even The Knowledge itself says vision or experiences are worth nothing, and are just the "fruit of Bhakti".

The point is, what are they all leading?

Did Destruction happen in WWII, 1950, 1976, 1986, 1996 ... as the God Father said it would? What's the chances of Sat Yuga being ready by 2036? Do the ethics and activities of the BK leaders and BKWSU really add up to anything?

And think it through logically ... even if the moon could magically absorb materials, each Kalpa the mass of the Earth would reduce by x amount and the mass of the Moon, Mars and other planets increase by x amount ... therefore, over time, the mass of the moon would become greater than the mass of the Earth. For the Kalpa to be exactly the same, each molecule must return to exactly the same place and state. How on earth!?! Certainly not the way they teach us.

If that is not enough, explain how the light travelling from the stars 1,000s of light-years away magically goes backwards to start again (light-years means distance light travels in one year ... a distance of six trillion miles. The light from the nearest galaxy, the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, has taken about 25,000 light-years).

It hooked the original Om Mandlites because they had zero education. I was bad at physics but even I can understand how impossible it is, or how wrong The Knowledge is. How many times can The Knowledge be not true, and for how long, before we finally admit that the source of The Knowledge is also not true?

human being

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

Again, I would request everyone not to take my examples literally and try to find technical faults/explanations to justify the BK knowledge. Also to those who don't know I would tell you that I have run a small center at my home for 4 years so I am pretty familiar with the 'teachings'.

The point here is not to find reasons like self-healing characteristics in moon's soil etc., the thing is you have to rely on such dubious reasons while reading all sorts of scientific articles to constantly fool yourself into maintaining your 'nishchay' in the teachings. If you are really an honest man, it would become unbearable to you after some time. In fact, I would go as far as to claim that the more honest you are in your assessment of the 'Gyan', the less will be the time to realize that it cannot be true and, hence, any question of it being from the god himself (assuming that such a being exists which I am not sure anymore) cannot arise.

As far as experiences from Dadis are concerned, I really don't give a damn now. The main source is 'Baba' and all others are only secondary mediums who absorb frm him and than radiate to 'lesser souls' who won't feel the direct connection. Once you become accomplished in BK Yoga, you really don't care much about taking vibrations from other souls if you are an 'A grade' BK. Also the better your connection is the less other souls like Dadis etc will affect you as your 'aura' grows stronger. Also, common people don't usually have that kind of intense love, joy etc. So if they are emotionally vulnerable and someone influences them psychically and makes them cry am I supposed to believe that they are agents of god! That would be silly I think.

(Hey I cant quote from other people.Would welcome a bit help.srry)

human being

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

Also I would like to add, as ex-l says, there is a huge influence of Christianity on BK teachings. In fact, the very idea of 'Shiv Baba' seems to me as a direct copying of an Abrahamic god in pretty much all its characterstics.

The organizational structure is also very similar to evangalical Christians. You may be surprised to know that a lot of missionaries are coming to my place telling me that I will burn in hell if I don't listen to them!! They reminded me of quite a few BKs ;).

It also makes sense as Dada Lekhraj was very much impressed by anything European himself, as is evident from his earlier lifestyle, so I think it is very much possible that he knowingly or unknowingly mixed there idea of 6,000 years earth with Hindu traditional terms like Kalpa, used their methodology into forming a very strong organisation with very similar structure a Catican hierarchy, and started a new but not so new religion.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

The best and truest aspect of Brahma Kumaris teaching found in so many meditations and philosophies but which they need to practice more themselves (if they are the originators as they claim) is - silence.

Remembering any god or Baba, talking to your Baba, loving the Baba, churning the Gyan, focusing on this, considering that - its all bah blah blah, yada yada, he said she said... mental swings and roundabouts, a gilded cage, nay , maze.

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao;
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
Laozi (Lao Tzu), in Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1, as translated by Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English 1972(I recommedn this translation - PP)

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

human being wrote:Hey I cant quote from other people.Would welcome a bit help.srry


hello Brother,
u have to click on quote on an article and u get the syntax, u can edit the content u want to quote.

to quote more than one time follow the same syntax, edit the name & content
sukshm wrote:Also, I feel not just quality of vibration but intensity (quantity) also varies from person to person, hence numberwise in service of world transformation through self transformation.


here i wrote sukshm instead of sukshmbindu to explain the syntax

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

i think all souls constantly conduct cosmic energy, prayer/meditation connects our soul to a particular format/key/mould/lens/antenna of cosmic source, i.e. each prayer/meditation is a particular type of transducer between cosmic energy powerhouse and our soul, hence the experiences are different, experiences may also vary depending on our state of mind and consciousness level at the time of prayer/meditation.

i beleive in god, masters, angels, religions and different forms of meditation based on my experiences.. some divine source is definetely there..each of us access it differently..

human being

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

human being wrote:Hey I cant quote from other people.Would welcome a bit help.srry


hello Brother,

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

Friend wrote:I am wondering, do you accept the 5000 Cycle? For me, and many others, it seems to be the hardest thing to swallow. And do you think Shiv-Baba is God or some other entity?


human wrote:Have you ever paused to even think that those 'souls' who live in sub-saharan Africa which are not even there in Satyug/treta and hence are of very recent origion are are therefore supposed to be of very recent origin, how come they do not get any good time at all as according to 'Gyan' each soul gets 75% happy time and 25% miserable time with the last time as the worst? As a matter of fact most of the population of the planet is supposed to be of 1/2 birth kind (pichadi me machhar misal)


this is the best thing about this forum, u get peer reviews and critic reviews both

about cycle i did not find many confirmations but once a Muslim Brother told me that in quran it is written that mohammed the prophet sees a divine light coming from the east & after ~1400 yrears something divine will happen in the east(not sure about the exact words, but this is the meaning). other than that there is second coming of christ but without a time line, but many spiritual foundations prophesise Golden Age in the near future(again no particular dates).. i personally am an optimist and beleive Golden Age will come soon..

coming to african example, how can we conclude that it is the first birth of all those souls and other souls in poverty and suffering.. who knows maybe it is their last birth and they have had a glorious past..also just because some are poor or less intelligent of deprived of material and spiritual resources doesn't indicate they are any lesser than others.. one way of understanding the concept of reincarnation with the analogy of bank balance.. we work we earn we save, some of our earnings are in the form of cash, some as assets, some as bank balances in various banks.. we can withdraw from those banks using debit cards, checks.. say we go to another country, to a new place and wish to stay there for a while and not use any of our old debit cards, cash, we stay there start from the scratch again earn start new bank accounts, save some money and when we want we can go back to earlier place and utilise this new money along with old money or we can stay in the new place and access the old money or we can take some credit and start a new venture.. many possibilities.. here in this example we remember our old bank accounts but in case of we don't consciously remember our accounts(material & spiritual) but before birth we consciously with free will decide how many of our past resources(material & spiritual) to access.. only this much is decided we start at different levels but can always strive for upliftment and progress by both physical, intellectual and spiritual efforts.. we never know where we will be born but if we live a life of conscience and compassion towards others we will live a life of peace and joy in this birth and most likely in the next birth also

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

one more concept is if we spend energy(material/spiritual) we feel happy, when we donate it to some one else also we feel happy and we will get it in return by Law of Karma(what goes out comes in), then how is it superior to 'give' than to 'spend'.. beacause while giving we operate from a stand point of compassion and love towards others which is divine.. and in return we get that energy(material/spiritual) given + the blessings so it is an elevated karma, as per gnan this manifests as u being the king/leader in future..
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ex-l

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

sukshmbindu wrote:coming to african example, how can we conclude that it is the first birth of all those souls ...

The first place to start is with the mathematics.

I cannot believe there are a million people in BKism, many far more educated than I am and far better at science and mathematics, and none of them have had a good look at the population growth curve.

Start with approximately 900,000 at the end of the Golden Age (population cannot grow is two parents have two children) and then tell us how it gets to 330 million 1,250 years later. Then look at modern expansion rates; 2 billion in 1930 to 7.2 billion today ... and, most importantly, *where* it has increased.

You know the number of births the BKs claim ... work it out roughly equating known populations, known life expectancies, known cataclysms like the Black Plague.

I think it's one of those areas where people area afraid to look too closely because it would burst their bubble. They would have to admit it does not compute.

However, there is a saying in Christianity that such discussion are like arguing, "how many Angels can dance on a pinhead?". In modern terms, it means that it's a futile exercise because it's not discussing something that is real or provable either way.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post23 Dec 2016

I have to accept that I somehow believe in Baba and try to understand his teachings practically. My beleif is based on 'super sensous joy' I feel when I contemplate on Baba & Murli (though this stage is not always consistent - there are fluctuations and variations but the intoxication is felt on reading, churning, contemplating & meditating) ... hence I always try to find a reasonable way to prove gnan.

I think the lifetime of Golden Age diety is 150yrs, assuming they conceive kids at age of 37.5 years (i.e. 1/4 of lifespan, like it is 25yrs for 100yr lifespan), so for every 39 (assuming 2 kids with age gap of 1.5 yrs) the population would double minus the original population that dies after 150yrs, in this way by end of 1250 years population can be very high - much more than 3 crore, but that is not the case, also the population will remain 9 lakh only if kids are born at the age of 150 and if parents die immediately after giving birth, that is not practical, most likely first son is born at the age of 75 and daughter much later.

Also, I think the coronation is at the age of 37.5 soon after the marriage and each Emperor Shri Narayan along with his wife Shri Lakshmi rule for 75 years, i.e. till they reach the age of 112.5 years and then coronate their son who would be at the age of 37.5 years by then. In this way each of the asthratan (8 gems) would rule 75 years as Shri Lakshmi and another 75yrs as Shri Narayan - total 150 years tenure.

Since shri Krishna is the first prince of Golden Age, shri radhe would be the first child of her parents and has a younger Brother and most likely she is thr 2nd child of Golden Age as shown as 2nd leave in a picture. Also I think Baba told parents would have a son and a daughter but did not mention that son is elder.

Also, interestingly, in the same 1250 years time span the growth of population in Golden Age is 9 lakh to 3 crore, i.e. ~33.33 times where as in silverage is 3 crore to 33crore, i.e.11 times. Are you sure about three kids in Silver Age? I think 2.

Kindly confirm.
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