Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

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sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post27 Dec 2016

I, too, feel Shankar is the highest stage of vairagya (renunciation of worldly desires) and acting purely based on benevolence and compassion hence is is depicted to give boons even to rakshshas and is shown in graveyard indicating his renunciate stage.

He is supposed to be the most merciful, giving sustenance to evil spirits, i.e. accepting them unconditionally and sustaining them - shouldn't be misunderstood as encouraging them to do evil deeds. In contrary he pacifies them and may be help them lead a better life/experience an elevated state of consciousness. He is shown with a ganga river on his head indicating his intellect brimming and overflowing as gnan ganga (river of knowledge) [also it is important here that he is not depicted as an ocean but Shiv Baba is depicted as ocean of knowledge and bliss]. His body is smeared with

May be the highest stage we can experience living in a body is Shankar stage but seed stage, i.e. being a soul in Paramdham/soulworld is higher than this but in that stage maybe we don't feel our body, but Shankar stage is being in a body and doing actions but with an ultimate stage of renunciation (icha matram avidya, i.e. not having any longing towards desires but just benovelance being the only reason for our actions).

He takes vish/poison from ksheer Sakar manthan (i.e. churning of milk ocean), it can be understood as absorbing all negativity in the world or may be neutralising negativity in the world with his power of penance so that everyone else can have the benefit of immortality by drinking the amrut/nectar that comes after poison from ocean - the milk ocean is churned by both devas and rakshasas. This can be understood as our thoughts effecting our environment both devas (positive thoughts) and danavas (negative thoughts) effect the outcome and the result is poison(from -ve thoughts) and nectar of immortality (from positive thoughts) and Shankar is that dev who can neutralise the poison by keeping it at his throat but not swallowing it, i.e. he neutralises the negativity but he is not affected by it.

The crescent moon on his head indicates that he is a moon that reflects sun ShivBaba's knowledge but is not an original source of it. Third eye is the eye of intellect, the unseen eye that 'sees' through the situation may be intution amd may also be intellectual clarity and wisdom, being 'trikal darshi' knower of past-present-future of a situation (i.e. understanding the origins and forecasting the future based on the present action) & 5000 your cycle.

Wearing snake as garland indicates he has got victory over 5 vices and cannot be harmed by them. Wearing of rudraksh might indicate simplicity & renunciation in contrast to Vishnu who is decorated with jewels and gold. In fact, as per Baba, Vishnu Iron Age a stage of being an embodiment of knowledge and virtues and enjoying our rewards where as Shankar is a stage of contribution.

The Trident is supposed to be three ways of world destruction (1. civil wars 2. nuclear wars 3. natural disasters). In Hindu scriptures also, there is a mention of pralay tandav" destructive dance" of Shiva (its actually Shankar as told by Baba) that results in cataclysms. Also the skin colour of Shankar is white (he is neelkanth-only throat is navy blue due to intake of poison) in contrast to blue colour of Vishnu (this is as per Hindu scriptures, Baba says Krishna/Narayan in goldenage is white (gora-hindi word for white) but effort maker soul of Krishna is depicted as blue (shyam).

He rides an ox (nandi) indicating brahmababa is his vehicle. The instrument dhamaruk indicates destruction where as Krishna's flute is sweet and pacifies soul. He is said to have burnt manmadha (the love god-cupid) indicating he is above attachment and lust. Here it doesn't mean he doesn't have compassion or benevolence just means he is impartial, committed and just. He wears tiger skin indicating renunciation. He is arthanareeshwar (half body of man and another half of women) indicates he; 1. gives half of his power to his wife, and 2. is complete in both feminine and masculine qualities (may be right brain and left brain).

He "lives in himalayas" means he lives on a mountain of coolness, i.e. having a very stable mind and aloof of vices (vices are supposed to be hot, but even Yoga agni that burns vices maybe cool).

The difference in Shankar and Shiv is Shankar is an astral body where as Shiv has no astral body since he does not take birth.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post27 Dec 2016

One interesting site of channelled messages.

https://www.omna.org/what-is-hindering-your-ascension/
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Pink Panther

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post27 Dec 2016

Does Shankar exist?

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post27 Dec 2016

I feel Shankar is not a soul. Brahma Baba is a soul, but Vishnu is a symbolic representation of "pavitra pravritti marg", i.e. pure grihasta ashram not sanyasi marg, i.e. Shiv Baba says he establishes the path of grihasta-married family life but living with The Knowledge that we are souls inhabiting bodies. He doesn't advise us to live a life of monk, in Confluence Age he adopts us through Brahma Baba as as mother and Shiv Baba as Father so all BKs are mouthborn children of mother brahmaba and Father ShivBaba (I, personally, believe this concept was later told by Shiv Baba after Mama's death, since the Murlis we read are of last four or five years. I think in the early days, when Mama was alive, she was not only adopted daughter of prajapita brahmababa but was also his appointed consort. This is depicted in scriptures as Brahma dev being an old man and Saraswati, his consort, is depicted young, and also called 'Brahma manasa putrika', i.e. daughter born from his man (mind), and she was initially called Mama Jagdamba Saraswati.

When yashodama wife of Brahma Baba died, Brahma Baba said, "amma mare to halwa khana, bibi mare to halwa khana (eat porridge when mother dies, eat porridge when wife dies), but when Mama died he said, "is budde ki biwi ko marna nahi tha" (the wife of this old man shouldn't have died). I felt the contrast surprising. Maybe it is something about Brahma Baba's nature, the Murli is a mix of both ShivBaba's words as well as brahmababa's words. so the taunts in Murli were mostly about Brahma Baba's sanskars and shouldn't be taken literally.

After brahmababa became Avyakt, the Murlis are very objective and sweet (angelic stage) in contrast to subjective and authoritative type of Sakar Murlis where all benchmark yuktis of manmath, traitor ... words were used based on only Brahma Baba's stage but also listeners..

About Shankar, it is not just Brahma Baba's final stage of vairagya, but also about all BKs. It is a stage and not a soul/role. If ShivBaba is the creator, the sustainer and the destroyer of vices, we all are master creators, master sustainers and master destroyers of vices.

In scriptures, all attributes of Shiv are assigned to players Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar since they are living models whereas Shiva/ShivBaba the silent inspiration behind. I feel even Murlis are silent inspirations received by Sakar Brahma Baba and Avyakt Brahma Baba and he speaks based on his interpretation.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post27 Dec 2016

I sometimes feel Narayan and lakshmi are also stages along with being names and roles since Baba says lakshya (aim) is to become nar (man) se (to) Narayan & nari (woman) se (to) lakshmi .. Baba also says 'mandir mein pujya layak banna' (become worship worthy in temples), 'pujya swaroop aapke yaadgaar hain' (various gods and goddesses worshipped are your memorials) ...

Its been a long since I read Murlis, so maybe the words aren't the same but the gist is.

There are very few temples of Brahma but many temples of Shiva, Krishna, Ram, lakshmi, durga ... but all have different variations in names and rituals. Baba says this is because they all represent different souls ... In Bhakti marg, Shankar and Shiv are assumed to be the same entity, so only Shiv mandirs exist with shivling as obects of worship.

Shiv is Paramatma (Supreme Soul), Shankar is mahadev - the mightiest among all devs.

Shankar is definetely not a soul .. no one resides in Shankar puri, our renunciate stage energy egregores exist which are energy banks for our future.

We cannot get rewarded for causing violence or destruction since 'Law of Karma' is a law and applies to all BKs/non-bks/PBKs/atheists. We cannot get away by telling the universe that we destroyed the world in rememberance of ShivBaba in seed stage so we are karmateet and won't have any karmic burden of being a cause/source of violence/destruction ...

We will be rewarded if we transform our sanskars and destroy the vices present in ourself ..

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post27 Dec 2016

I read some PBK content and found Murli points misinterpreted .. I, personally, feel he is either genuinely misunderstanding them with a sane mind or is either schizophrenic or suffering with grandiose delusional disorder. I felt subconsiously he wants to be like brahmababa.

I came to know they meditate a lot ... they use the same BK Murlis but interpret in their own way making Virendra Bhai the centre of attention ... I lived with a 40yr old unmarried BK Sister for 4 months & she told me she has been to Shankar Party classes and meditations and felt they are quite focussed on meditation, so I got curious and read online content ... Initially it was interesting, I came across the concept of seed souls, but after 3-4 days I felt the content was full of misinterpretations ... I longed for ShivBaba and his sweet Murli.

I have heard from that BK Sister that some PBKs meditate & give sakash to hospitals. If so, it is good even if their interpretation is wrong but if they are very focussed and take Destruction of world as their aim it is a matter of concern ... I hope some PBK answers or maybe I should post in bk-pbk forum what they mean by telling virendra dixit Bhai is Shankar as well as Ram. What is his role in Confluence Age and how they meditate - with what aim ...
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ex-l

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

How was your experience living with the unmarried Sister? How did that go?

Is that how they do training now? Did she live alone and support herself by her own career?

Did you have to follow the full Maryadas during that time? Was it away far from your family?

I think you've got a good overall grasp of BKism, naturally it's a little tinged with mainstream Hinduism, as you are in India and were being trained to respond to Hindu culture. BK in the West is a little different. But where do you think it will take you now? Wouldn't it be a good idea to leave it all behind until your child is fully grown up and matured?

You may not think so at present, you might have preferred to become a Sister Shivani type, but I think your parents saved you from wasting your life on them.

We could discuss other more rational, deductive view of Hindu beliefs and how they develop from early symbolism and the amalgamation of many different tribal religions as India melded itself into one culture ... you could read Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung and I am sure many Indian scholars about it ... but, honestly, what good will that do you apart, perhaps, from protecting your child and family from exploitation by them?

I'd say it was far better to find something practical to invest your mind into whether it is child psychology and education, business, something directly related to your community, or some way to use your professional skills to help others, e.g. educating disadvantaged girls in worldly matters.

In truth, the only thing you need to know about religion, is that there are two types of people involved in it; those making money out of it, and those giving money to it ... and I'd include everyone from academics to spirit mediums in the former.

Since Lekhraj Kirpalani's money ran out, a large part of BKism has moulded itself around sucking in money and keep its business interests alive, including their huge and expensive PR/advertising campaigns. If you surrender to them, you don't end up "serving humanity" you just end up serving some center-in-charge or leader, or doing PR and marketing for them if you have any brains.

Unless you are planning to make a career out of religion somehow, and that's off the cards for you now, I don't think it's a great investment of your time and mental energy. It saddens me that a religion which set out claiming that it was against the ritual and superstition of Hinduism, and not taking donations, has just replaced it with another form of ritual and superstition, and has increasingly become about sucking in donations.

I could agree with your impressions of PBKism ... but I think Lekhraj Kirpalani also suffered from mental illness and huge delusion of grandeur made only worse by his ability to afford to live out his god/Krishna fantasies and I feel that BKism is a sort of contagion for those mental tendencies. That was my experience ... I became swept away by what I now know is largely a fantasy world, and that fantasy world became reality for me.

If we look at it from a spiritualist point of view, what they are teaching people, what they are initiating people into, is not really Raja Yoga but a form of mediumship in which the susceptable are overshadowed or possessed by their group spirit, or actual spirits. The latter being what the teachings claim, channels for ShivBaba and other spirits which they claim are deceased BKs.

What attracted me to BKism in the beginning was that it claimed it was not a religion, that it was a spiritual university etc etc etc. Of course, neither is true. It has become far, far, far more of a Bhakti cult than it was in my time, and it is at a primary educational level.

Is that what society around you needs the most today? I would have thought India still needs weaning off religion and supersistion and to adopt a more rational, secular point of view and understanding of life.

BKism, for me, has just become about "top dogism". The BKs want to believe they are the top knot Brahmins (it is what the teachings say) and interpretating away other religions is they way. They put on the Brahmanic act only into order to rise within Indian society.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

Dr. Emoto, "water has memory" scientist of Japan, came to Madhuban and put a bowl of water in front of Dadi Janki on stage. The hall was totally filled with BKs. They all meditated and when he took the image of crystalline structure of that freezed water it is very beautiful. He took the crystalline stucture images of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam all are different ... the BK crystalline structure was more refined and large. bkism is not just about hinduism, it is the mother of all religions. Baba says, 4 major religious scriptures that have complete story of cycle beginning from adam (Brahma Baba), eve (Mama) till the end 'kayamat' (Judgement Day) are bhagawat Gita (hinduism), quran (Islam), bible (Christianity) and dharmpath (Buddhism).

I, personally, think there is much about bkism that has yet to be churned and understood, i.e. it is very rich in content which is practically applicable to life from both spriritual and material point of view.

Also, I think it is not Islam but rather Judaism-Torah-Moses which is the second major ancient religion after Hinduism rather than Islam-Quran-Muhammed the Prophet, since Baba says,
    1. abraham se Islam dharam ke stapna (Islam religion founded by Abraham)
    2. it is portrayed before the advent of Buddhism and Christianity in both Cycle and Kalpa Tree ...
but Baba uses the word Quran, so does Quran has only the content inspired by Archangel Gabriel and orally said by illiterate Muhammed the Prophet and written by another scribe, or is it a continuation of Abrahamic religion and has both the Muhammed the Prophet channeled content and history (like Bible having two parts Old Testament and New Testament - life of Jesus and his messages)?

I have heard Quran acknowledges Jesus as a prophet of god and tells Muhammed is the last prophet and no other prophet will come after him.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

My experience with the 40 year old BK Sister was, she used to live with her ~11/12 your old nephew. She was very dominating and authoritative, her dharnas were accurate - 3 am Amrit Vela meditation, wearing white dress, cooking her own food, not eating outside food, daily reading Murli, evening meditation, her churning was also good.

I shifted to her quarter since my roommates left (one went to Bombay for jobsearch, another for studies). I wanted to experience BK life. Non-surrendered Sisters were not allowed to live residentially in Gurgaon retreat center. Another BK mother who was a friend of mine was living with her husband and 14/15 year old son and her home was far from my office ~ 1hr 15min journey, whereas the BK Sister quarter was just ~ 25 min from office and ~ 15 min from BK retreat center.

I would cook my own food and not eat outside food from ~1yr by the time I shifted to her quarter, but I was not doing Amrit Vela but would meditate in the morning-afternoon-evening. I would read Murli regularly ... my Amrit Vela improved after living with her but I was not happy there since she was not warm-easy going type. She was disciplined-commanding type so my parents shifted me a girls hostel. Also they felt I might become a surrendered BK and told me to mingle more with non-bks and eat outside food.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

I was just reading this and found an answer of how and why I felt unhappy in her presence .. she would restrict me from going to the retreat centre to attend Baba milans. She used to say many are kidnapped on this road from Manesar (her quarter was in Manesar) to Bilaspur (retreat center was at Bilaspur chowk). If I talked on phone, she was concerned. If I go to the terrace and talk, she would say animals (tigers, lions) would come from the jungle behing the compound wall and it is dangerous. I would find her concern genuine, but her beleifs irrational and, subconsciously, my psyche was effected a lot by her insecurities and I changed a lot as a person.

This was happening involuntarily, maybe her pesonality was naturally very influential or may be since she meditates a lot and hence radiates highly influencial aura (sang ka rang-colour of company). My parents identified this when I went home and immediately my mom came with me and shifted my residence to a girls hostel .. my Father was angry about her and called her to BK retreat centre and told the Sisters there that she did something to my child, told her to take responsibility and cure me. But I felt she was innocent just her beliefs, psyche and aura had a negative effect on me.

She told Sisters there that her Father was murdered when she was young, she became so disturbed and restless and found peace in Baba. It may not be her fault but I felt something wierd about that quarter where she lived. I felt the presence of a spirit it be it was her fathers ... I am not sure ... sometimes she used to unknowingly tell exactly what happened in our office but in a different context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A58ssZoF57c

I now understand better ... maybe the trauma she has undergone made her insecure and she developed instincts of non-trust and seeing negative side of situations, or rather interpreting everyone/every situation in a negative way being alarmed by her past experiences.

Meditation not only purifies but also amplifies our thought power ... so should be done from a state of gratitude and love else it may amplify our insecurities.

This is not about every BK, this is about one particular lady ... my center in charge was a sweet, easy going BK.

GuptaRati 6666

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

There are two major schools of Yoga meditation: the mantra system and the mindfulness. The mindfulness meditation has been suitable for randomized control studies, though there is a need for more detailed scientific studies. The BK Raj Yoga is more than likely in the class of mindfulness meditation. The objects are the soul and Supreme Soul.

In theory, a raj yogi is over a 4-5 decade period masters the other systems of Yoga that are components of Raj Yoga. They are: Kundalini Yoga; Bhakti Yoga; Gyan Yoga; karma Yoga; buddhi Yoga;sanyas Yoga; hatta Yoga; and sankaya Yoga.

The kundali is or can be awakened in many BKs, but guidance on nurturing the kundali does not seem to be in the curriculum of BK instruction. Hatha Yoga tends to be given low status by the BKs. However, it helps to keep the body fit and healthy. Also many BK allow service to prevent them from mastering the Yoga of equanimity or maintaining one's cool.

I like Zen meditation and Taoism, though the BKs tend to look down on both. They have both worked for me, since I am a martial artist. My twin flame is an expert in Zen practices and I never persuaded her to choose between Raj Yoga and Zen.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

I don't think BK meditation is ”mindfulness" meditation. It is more a process of affirmations which has ‘aims' rather than being mindful of what is, and the aim is to ”go beyond".

Mindfulness (a mistranslation of Satti or smritti) is about presence in the here and now. Mindfulness is not about transcendence of the here and now. It is also about the removal of separation of subject and object, doer and doing, and so on. Losing oneself in the moment or in the action is not the same as losing oneself from the moment or action. Although beginners (to meditation) are advised to begin by seeing the separation, or as its called, ”adopting the ‘host' position”.

You mention the controlled studies. There is a famous piece of research from the 1960s or 70s I have linked to elsewhere on this forum where the reactions of Zen monk meditators were compared to Hindu yogi meditators using EEG (I think, from memory). The reactions measured were to outside stimuli, the main one I remember was the ringing of a loud bell or buzzer at random intervals.

Generally, the Hindu yogis gradually "tuned out" after a few rings and became unresponsive at all to the stimuli, unconscious of it in the same way people who live close to a busy road or train line become so used to cars and trains going by. They don’t notice the noise after a while. I have lived in such circumstances and can say that happens, it's visitors who'll mention the passing train.

The Zen monks however always responded at ‘normal’ levels each and every time.

I heard the story on radio, from the two people involved, of a partially blind yogi in Bengal who became so ”absorbed” in his meditation in the forest that, if it wasn’t for his friend (who had only one leg) who came looking for him, he would have drowned in the monsoon deluge. Where he had chosen to be was in a gully, and he was so ‘lost’ in his meditation that by the time his concerned friend found him, the flowing water was chest-high and rising and he had to bring him ”to his senses" to get him up and out of there.

Transcendence? Stupor? Samadhi? I don't think accidental suicide by detachment is what life is about.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

Also, Baba establishes 'pavitra pravriti marg' through 'adi sanatan devi devta dharm' of which Hinduism, Jainism are sub branches that come from Copper Age. It is a path of viceless righteous householder, so I think they do actions but not based on 5 vices, i.e. lust/anger/greed/attachment/ego but from love and responsibility, I feel the progeny would be born based on the normal process of sex, since it is a must biological process for the formation of embryo, but maybe there is commitment and fidelity to the married partner and no pre-marital/extra-marital sex, as well as sex being an act of expression of love rather than lust.

In Confluence Age, the brahmakumars and Kumaris follow 'brahmacharya', i.e. abstain from sex, since they are Brothers and Sisters of Father ShivBaba and mother Brahma Baba - an alokik family. Moreover, BK life is supposed to be a student life which is the first stage among the four stages of life 1st 25 years brahmacharya, 2nd 25 years grihasta (householder life), 3rd 25 years - vanaprasta (retirement and living in woods), 4th stage sanyasashram - life of renunciation.

I contemplated the possibility of conception through thoughts/looks but dismissed the idea since it can even mean anyone can plant a child in anyone's womb in that case it is absurd and anti social .. the most likely way is the normal biological process even in Golden Age as well as silver ages.

sukshmbindu

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

Pink Panther wrote:I don't think BK meditation is ”mindfulness’ meditation, It is more a process of affirmations which has ‘aims' rather than being mindful of what is, and the aim is to ”go beyond"...

Generally, the Hindu yogis gradually ‘tuned out” after a few rings and became unresponsive at all to the stimuli, unconscious of it in the same way people who live close to a busy road or train line become so used to cars and trains going by they don’t notice the noise after a while. I have lived in such circumstances and can say that happens, its visitors who'll mention the passing train. The Zen monks however always responded at ‘normal’ levels each and every time.

Baba says to meditate with open eyes (to radiate the divinity through our eyes to the outside world as well as to be active). There may not be any emotional upheavels or hormonal secretions but they respond in awake active mode, i.e. the consciousness is always active but the disturbing thoughts are not there but creative, constructive and inspiring thoughts might arise even during meditation. The mind is stable but not unconscious like being subjected to anesthesia. Meditation is different from trance. We are very active but our metabolism, biological processes are very healthy and stable. I think the feel good hormones, like serotonin and dopamine, are secreted resulting in a peaceful bliss but the hormones like adrenalin aren't secreted, even if an alarming situation arises. It is attended with a balanced mind.

Baba says it is 'easy rajyog', do Yoga while sitting, standing, eating, drinking, walking, talking. it's all about balance and acting from a state of balance and love.

Detachment is another misunderstood term .. Baba says we are 'karmayogis', i.e. we should not be 'attached' to the 'results/outcomes' of our actions since results are determined based on Law of Karma, our role is only to act .. detachment doesn't mean apathy towards others' grief or lack of friendship rather Baba himself is 'snehsagar' - ocean of friendship .. we should act with an intention of 'kalyankari' benovelence and compassion but shouldn't be affected by the results of our actions. That is detachment.

So we can say it is both being mindful as well as 'smaran'/'jap'. The only difference being we are mindful that we are souls infinitesmal points of light, sons of Supreme Soul ShivBaba, who is also an infinitesimal point of light, and we remember our soul form constantly, i.e. instead of repeating a mantra, we repeat a thought continously, such that it becomes a natural background for all our other thoughts similar to background music being 'soul consciousness' and playground singers being our thoughts of action.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Other modalities of meditations/philosophies you like

Post28 Dec 2016

i contemplated the possibility of conception through thoughts/looks but dismissed the idea
It seems you do not believe that the BK organisation’s teachings come from God, as they claim and as is stated in the Murli. Either that or you consider God is wrong and you are right, or God is lying.
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