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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 10 May 2019
by vlakshmi
Hi GuptaRati 6666 & Pink Panther,

If you feel that my presence disturbs your peace, I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I value peace more.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 10 May 2019
by ex-l
Oh, we enjoy your company.

I think what you really mean is, "I realise that I cannot win here and I cannot face the truth", and perhaps even that you are making BKism look bad, exposing it for what is trully is.

"Peace” - meaning not having delusion challenged?

Real peace can only be found in truth.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 10 May 2019
by oldbk
vlakshmi wrote:Hi GuptaRati 6666 & Pink Panther,

If you feel that my presence disturbs your peace, I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I value peace more.


While, your presence doesn't distract, I would recommend that you take a break from your rantings. Spend more time in introspection, "churn the Murli", Realize that, just reading Murli and spitting is not Knowledge. It requires churning and self-introspection. And then, come back here to share your experience and progress.

We will continue to send our positive vibes for you, getting clarity in your path.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 10 May 2019
by ex-l
oldbk wrote:Spend more time in introspection, "churn the Murli" ...

Oh, please don't tell them that.

What they need to do is learn a little humility, get out into the real world, and test their ideas and intellectual methodologies out via some proper peer review.

Perhaps decide what interests them most, and go back to a real university to study it. It strikes me they are not stupid ... but that the uncritical, untutored nature of BKism has spoilt their intellect.

I place my bet on them being more intelligent than their center-in-charges etc. Perhaps a part of them craves real intellectual growth, discourse and challenges ... not just using their "grains of turmeric" to beat outsiders into BKism.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by Pink Panther
Dear vlakshmi,

It is good if you take time out from debating. You must feel like a member of a school debating team that MUST hold to one side side of argument, and this gets us nowhere (if truth is the goal) .

(While you may notice, if you take the time, that the rest of us here do actually have different points of view, the one thing we agree on is that the BKs are not what they say they are, no matter how sincerely any of them believe it).

Please. Read the many many experiences on this forum and think empathetically of the things you read, and as intelligent individual, not as an agent for the BKs or as their defence lawyer. Surely your aim is for self-edification, isn’t it?

Do not misdirect (yoursef or others) from the main points being made in a discussion, so no conclusion of the actual truth of any single claim is ever reached. Please. Cleverness is not intelligence.

And I'll reiterate - which you may ignore if you wish - based on your writings here, I do not believe you are a psychiatrist, ie a qualified medical doctor who has gone on to study and graduate in the specialisation of psychiatry.

If you actually are, I'd say that would be an example of the saying,
“Education is that mysterious process by means of which the contents of the note-book of the professor are transferred to the note-book of the student and back again, without passing through the mind of either.”

Regardless of that and with regards to you personally, I wish you all the best.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by ex-l
Pink Panther wrote:you may notice ... that the rest of us here do actually have different points of view ... I do not believe you are a psychiatrist.

Just to prove your point ... I don't agree with you. I could well believe she is a psychiatrist.

I am just genuinely concerned by the psychological compartmentalisation that is going on to hold such divergent states of mind together - one compartment is surely based on logic and scientific rigour at some point ... while the other is completely out of this world and based on absolute blind faith defended by illogic. I have to ask why, and be concerned? Their rational side must recognise the irrational part. I think it comes out at time, but then retreats behind the BK facade when challenged ... it’s why I wish we could avoid the "Beat on a BK" session ... but also that vlakshmi would avoid conduct that pretty much asks for it.

I'd guess we are just replaying some kind of pattern from them, eg being the overbearing, critical parent. You know what Indian parents wanting their children being a doctor or -ologist are like. May be the child wanted to be something else?

What happened to you, V? Let's be real.

Links taken at random for the sakes of discussion.
Compartmentalization is a subconscious psychological defense mechanism used to avoid cognitive dissonance, or the mental discomfort and anxiety caused by a person's having conflicting values, cognitions, emotions, beliefs, etc. within themselves.

Compartmentalization allows these conflicting ideas to co-exist by inhibiting direct or explicit acknowledgement and interaction between separate compartmentalized self-states.
Emotional Detachment And Compartmentalization

... compartmentalization is not always a bad thing, it’s sometimes a useful and necessary thing, particularly when it’s consciously utilized as a way to protect oneself from hostile environmental conditions that are more or less inescapable.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by Pink Panther
You may be right ex-l. Many BKs can be very proficient in their professional lives, be as scientific, practical and critical as the job requires, then put that all away and enter an alternative reality as a BK.

The ”role play” can act as a release for their work responsibilities and social demands. (Have a troublesome spouse? Don’t resolve the issue, You can, in your own mind, excuse yourself and patronisingly say it's their body consciousness!) .

However, I do see the main attraction to adopting that role play of a BK as being the validation of ego, desire not only for immortality but for exceptionalism. They cannot accept their ordinariness.

Just as white supremacists are essentially lacking in confidence so they seek reassurance through racial identification and gain a sense of security in numbers which comes simply by believing it, so too, in a much subtler way, the white-wearing supremacists that are the BKs give the individual a "refuge", a guaranteed validation of their being and that they have made the ‘best' choice simply by believing what they are told abut their experiences.

The BK culture provides and encourages all kinds of mental tricks like compartmentalisation to help the BK avoid the symptoms of disconnection and dissociation.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by ex-l
Pink Panther wrote:You may be right ex-l. Many BKs can be very proficient in their professional lives, be as scientific, practical and critical as the job requires, then put that all away and enter an alternative reality as a BK.

Talking of which, how are Sarah and Julia? Still as deeply involved in the BKs? The former not just involved in the Janki Foundation but chair of it, I see. So why not vlakshmi?

Psychiatry, in practise, is a lot different from psychotherapy, is it not? It's more about brain chemistry, prescribing drugs, and inherently physical problems rather than interpretation and analysis ... or perhaps vlakshmi can clarify better. Also how it is practised in India.
Dr Sarah Eagger is Chair of the Special Interest Group in Spirituality and Psychiatry at the Royal College of Psychiatrists. She is the medical advisor to the Janki Foundation, promoting a worldwide values-based approach to healthcare. Recently she was invited to be a trustee of the National Spirituality and Mental Health Forum.

Neville Hodgkinson, also on that board, is another such case, although a little more looser academically. With Neville, we know at least when the BKs hooked him if not how, it was right after a period of vulnerability and separation, following a near death experience. The effect on his family is also fairly documented in the public domain.

BK inspired craziness, divorce, break up, and the BKs ending up with much of his wealth, time and energy. He at least gets a nice but extremely rare retirement home out of them, and will be one of a very small percentage of BKs who get looked after in old age, I would predict.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by Pink Panther
What such highly educated intelligent people do to be able to continue as BKs is to simply ignore the questions that would trouble their BK allegiance.

Their need is emotionally driven. Logic, facts, truth are irrelevant.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by GuptaRati 6666

You are right about the BK academics/intellectuals. Their need is driven by emotions. Sure Dr Julia is an MD, which in the European or British academic tradition, is a research post graduate degree attained after qualifying as a doctor or physician. She is also Member of the Royal College of Psychiatry, MRC Psych, however there is a higher level, becoming a Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatry, FRC Psych.

In spite of the attainment of the academic alphabet soup the soul with those credentials behind their names have got to live their truths, including spiritual truths. Some do struggle spiritually even with the highest academic accolades. For a while they may think they have found the truth in BKism, until they are challenged like Heidi was in Germany and Hansa was in the USA.

Dr. Eagger is a retired professor, whose intellectual and academic authority will not be as powerful in the academic arena when to compared to her tenure as a professor. The BKs can be using her name to sanitize and launder their dirty concepts on health and healing, without understanding that scientific authority is always challenged. The best professor, especially in North America, is the professor who is actively conducing research at the bench, publishes actively, and rakes in the multi-million dollars in grant money to help pay their salaries and fund the university.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 11 May 2019
by ex-l
I don't know what Julia's status with the BKs is now, consequently, I am going to be caution on naming her specifically, as she advertises herself as part of a "husband and wife" team and "a trained Mindful Self-Compassion (MSC) teacher". She became a BK back in the 1980s around the same time as I did and, hence, would remember the failed predictions in Destruction. Both were attractive, educated, intelligent, professional women.

However, I note she still, currently presenting events for the "Kent/Canterbury Group of The Janki Foundation", as a "Consultant Child & Adolescent Psychiatrist/Community Paediatrician" offering "One-day Silent Retreat" with, I would say, specifically a Buddhist marketing feel, "mindfulness ... "gratitude & appreciation" are all Buddhist themes and not Brahma Kumari.
Theme – ‘Building Resilience Through Gratitude & Appreciation’

Led by – Dr Julia Ronder, Consultant Child & Adolescent Psychiatrist/Community Paediatrician, Certified Mindful Self-Compassion Teacher.

Who can come?

The retreats are designed for healthcare professionals, but as everyone cares for another, those from all professional and spiritual backgrounds are welcome. The days are ideally aimed at those already experienced and comfortable with silence.

Her company email address being the contact for it.

Of course, from our experiences, the idea that the Brahma Kumaris are embracing husband and wife teams, married post-BK, is beyond our BK comprehension, and beyond acceptable possibilities for the vast majority of BKs denied such relationships by the very same crone the foundation glorifies, Dadi Janki.

I have personally seen Janki sit and divide up young couples, never mind the chronic idiocy she pushes down the throats of 100s of young virgin girls in India exhorting them even to be "mindful" in their sleep in case they dream of such coupling.

So here we have the kind of bizarre schism I am asking vlakshmi about on a personal and institutional level.

If Julia is a consultant child & adolescent psychiatrist/community paediatrician - and I am sure a very good one - what does she make of the way all the young girls are treated in India, married off to their god spirit and stuck in what is arguably an abusive system.

How can individuals front up for the BKs know what it believes and teaches them?

Her site links to the Janki Foundation and another BK diffusion business Relax Kids (run by another BK who married) but not the BKWSU.

Not all the individuals involved in the Janki Foundation are BKs. How does it operate within the BK realm now?

As some kind of diffusion brand for BKs and cooperative ex-BKs targeting healthcare professionals, a front to bring them close to "Important People" who would not be seen associatining with the primary brand? To bring them into close relationship? A BK Lite for BKs who cannot follow the Maryadas and have given up hope of a rebirth in the future Golden Age, and are happy to accept a low status re-birth in the Silver Age instead?

And why, on the basis of "The Knowledge™" would they been teaching/promiting Mindfulness instead of their own BK Raja Yoga?

Would that not suggest a failure in their own practise ... or is it all just a gently baited hook to suck people in?

No mention of BKism in any of the blurb, just generalities ... the marketing emphasis is instead on her professional standing .. a sick joke when the same uneducated crone pushed other young people to give up their educational careers and professions. I see they are still passing her off as a "nurse".

"Mindful Self-Compassion (MSC)" was apparently co-created by self-compassion evangelist Kristin Neff PhD, who is "widely recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on self-compassion" and with her colleague Dr. Chris Germer.

Nothing like inventing a new marketing brand and electing yourself the world expert in it ... no mention of the Buddha or even Jon Kabat-Zinn?

It's a global business selling "self-compassion" to self-absorbed professional classes ... Jeez, all dem Tibet monks really blew it seeking Enlightenment. What they really needed was an MBA and business development manager.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 12 May 2019
by Pink Panther
This thread is going off in different directions (but I am OK with it if it returns to topic - flirty fishing)

ex-l wrote:And why, on the basis of "The Knowledge™" would they been teaching/promiting Mindfulness instead of their own BK Raja Yoga? .. or is it all just a gently baited hook to suck people in?

Well, yes. A baited hook indeed. Mindfulness is the new ”Yoga", ie Yoga entered the West in a big way in the 1960s and 70s and now, after 40 years or so, we find a Yoga studio on every second or third city block just as we find gyms and 7-11 convenience stores. And many are actually franchises like 7-11s!

Meditation, a key component of traditional Yoga systems is dropped by most of these Yoga studios as that entails another whole side of study and practice which takes it away from the lower common denominator, feeling good physically and staying heathy. (Which a philosopher like Heidegger might agree with, saying that true philosophy was about exploring the absolutely essential questions of life that matter to everyone and getting away from all the things which are based on desire and want or other secondary levels of intellectual pursuits which are determined by secondary level determinants).

The BKs strip away everything but the meditation to create product differentiation. So all those customers of Yoga studios and gyms who feel there’s an element missing from their personal body-mind equilibrium, and those who think its all just in the mind, the BKs are there with their offerings.

Buddhism is non-theistic and the main Western exposure to it is via the work of the Dalai Lama and also the less ”religious” looking, more philosophical approach of Zen. Even if anyone is drawn into Tibetan iconography of devas and demons, the student, Westerner or otherwise, can easily learn that their use is for analogy and metaphor rather than as literal beings. Their literature is quite clear on that. Zen is even more spartan in its approach. But nearly all Buddhism emphasises ”whole being”, much more than meditation or philosophy.

Mindfulness is not only a ”product" for overcoming personal stresses and distresses, it becomes a tool of economic productivity so is easily packaged for that language and culture too.

The irony of it all is that the term ”mindfulness” itself is a mis-translation of the original term (Pali: Sati, Sanskrit: Smritti). The product has been moulded (broken up) to suit the packaging and wrapping aimed at its target market, rather than moulding the packaging to protect the product from breakage!

Those BKs who operate in these professional mindfulness trainers and positive thinking courses etc also tell themselves that they are above the Hindu-cultural imagery and have extracted the active ingredient which can be bottled and marketed.

That, on its own, may bring benefit to people, nothing wrong with that, but as you say ex-l, it is unethical to not acknowledge the origins just as the BKs do not acknowledge that their ”product" is not original as they claim but a melange from different sources.

It is less than unethical however, downright devious, to use it as a bait’n’switch tactic that gets unsuspecting ”prospects” in front of sophisticated BK salespeople.

And we know how that deal works .

Bait'n'switch fishing.jpg
Bait'n'switch fishing.jpg (29.87 KiB) Viewed 4225 times

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 12 May 2019
by ex-l
Pink Panther wrote:A baited hook indeed. Mindfulness is the new ”Yoga" ... many are actually franchises like 7-11s ... a bait’n’switch tactic that gets unsuspecting ”prospects” in front of sophisticated BK salespeople.

I could only watch a short segment of the TED video on "Mindful Self-Compassion" it was so awful. Bottomline is, the woman said (approx), "I went to one lesson of Buddhist meditation and the light bulb went off in my mind" ... which turned into a multi-national franchising operation selling courses, it appears.

Dr Craig Brown is a trustee & medical advisor to The Janki Foundation. I have no idea how much of a BK he is or is not - he has appeared are numerous of their events worldwide - but he seems to be pushing the Mindfulness theme. Also, here.

Clearly "Mindfulness" has a far better market value in the West for the BKs to chew into than Brahma Kumarism or Raja Yoga as it's a bit vuglar in the Yoga market to always be claiming you are the best, the highest, and more pure than everyone else (expect it to be diluted even further and exported back to BK India in a few years, and in a few years, straight BK Raja Yoga to be called it ... "BK Raja Yoga is true mindfulness").

But is it even "mindfulness" they are practising? Listening to the soundtracks linked to above, it sounds more like a little bit of self-hypnosis and a little bit of BKism.

Yet another case of the Brahma Kumaris jumping on someone else's or some other religion's intellectual property and using it to repackage their practise? To grab more market share and exploit.

I am highly critical of it because it all strips away the lineage and transmission element of Buddhist practise.

What is transmitted will be BKism. It's funny how American capitalism is able to turn anything into a big business ... can I invest in future shares in the Mindfulness Market™ now?

Then you get further deceptive statements from the BKs like this ...
The retreats have been hosted jointly by The Janki Foundation for Spirituality in Healthcare (UK), Point of Life Foundation (USA), Global Hospital Research Centre (Rajasthan, India), and the Brahma Kumaris (UK, USA, Australia and India).

Which basically means, "BK, BK, BK and BK" but dressed up to look more convincing.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 13 May 2019
by CS1979
Dear Pink Panther/ ex-I and others

Good to see responses and new insights. People who are self-confessed BK, and continuing their affiliations and embedded programmed (monitored) wisdom and practices daily, cannot know what befalls them when they realize they have been taken for a ride. I liken this to an airplane ride and all as 'would be BKs', when some mishap happens, even experienced fliers cannot manage to use the parachute and exit apparatus. But before each flight starts there is a demo and a warning. Sadly in the BK set up there is no exit situation/lecture.

But all Seniors know how to re-trap the exiting and wannabe runaway victim. The questions I raised what will they do needed an enumerated list of things.

Post-split scenario
    1. I do know there is no change in behavior on the BK family that holds a victim.
    2. They continue as normal as possible and keep informing common friends to the victim about their care rather than the victim's contribution.
    3. I was informed that the BK family complains of some sickness to various people (including the common friends) - more trying to fish for deep pockets to sponsor and donate.
    4. I know karma, as was told to me by the BK family, also catches up with them. While this I know from my family upbringing - don't know if the BK has such a notion of karma catching up.
    5. The flirting seems to be done more brilliantly as I hear and laugh at the new victims. cannot help them nor can stop the pursuer.
For the re-trapping, I am sure they will use
    1. Emotion-bonding as best that was
    2. Commotion - to ensure the victim sees a no better way than going back
    3. Promotion of their self-pity - making the victim become a hero or savior again
    4. Lure by event invitation etc - which the victim at times cannot refuse
    5. Major event disruptor (even a small one made big) as a cause for concern - for which the victim may respond
    6. Communicating in ways that will make the victim to go back
    7. Use props - people, resources, allurements that may be seen as an incentive to return
While the type of relationship was simple and courteous as I stated earlier - I am seeing many possibilities assuming a victim could have been and in and ways they would be weaned back by the BK family.

I expected a list like this - but I did not receive it. Now please list points which I missed so that it makes sense to me and others who want to be forewarned and cautioned. The flight of life needs to be a smooth ride. Pray always that the person who is next to you will help with the parachute of wisdom in quick steps to ensure you land safely in case of crisis.

I have read lots of prose - real good ones. I need points now.

Best of my appreciation to you all who write so well, despite the travails you had, and are now helping so many to exit.

Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

PostPosted: 14 May 2019
by Pink Panther
Dear CS1979,

You would appreciate that we don't live here full time. We have other things in life, and we have , as you have probaby seen on forum, been contributing many hours already.

As you appreciated what was written as prose, it would be a fairly simple task for you to go through the replies in this thread and summarise them as points wouldn’t it?

I mean theres no rush, in your own time. Wanting to be spoon fed wisdom, ie regurgitated from another person, rather than attaining it for oneself, is part of what makes us susceptible to exploitative "teachers".

I would summarise the points you made as:
    * appeal to ego - through ”specialness”, identifying with a seemingly higher purpose or group of people, obsequious behaviour rewarded with praise.

    * appeal to laziness - simply adopting what is handed over as ”high teaching’ gives an automatic authority and superiority, accepting attention and apparent kindness and allowing ourselves to be led into co-dependent relationship.

    *appeal to need - for structure in life, simple logic, simple formula or simple philosophy to the complexities of life, Stockholm Syndrome - wanting to please those who’ve bound us into needing them.

    *appeal to emotion - flirty fishing, love bombing, flattery, need for company, feeling comfortable (no need to think much) in the familiar structures.

    *appeal to fear - FOMO - fear of missing out on cosmic eternal good births in after life as promised, what if the baloney is actually true? Then fear of being a a failure (because you have accepted the BK version of success).

There may be others but usually things come down to being influenced by things we have desire or love for, fear or hate of, have ignorance or confusion about (usually expressed as a kind of stubborn arrogance).