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How can I help a surrendered Sister?

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by babies
This is my first post and I am desperate for advice and views on how I can best deal with my situation?

My mother has surrendered herself as a BK and from reading your info she is way down the line and now runs a centre. I have become increasingly concerned over time at the real aims of the BKs and where she is going. She is obviously under the spell and a true believer and I want to help her see a way through. I know if i push her she will turn further into the organisation and so how do i help? She doesn't want to leave as she is so busy with it all but i feel i cannot carry on without saying something for the sake of our relationship, or what remains of it.

How can you help someone out or plant a seed of doubt without turning them further down the path of tests that she believes Maya is leading her on?

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by Mr Green
Firstly hello and welcome to the site!

I feel for you, this is a very difficult situation,

You've already realised that approaching too directly will result in her going further away.

All you can really do is be there for her and gently challenge aspects of The Knowledge that don't hold up, also engaging her in conversation about happy family times in the past will help her from becoming too distant.

It is a very difficult thing, and hard for BKs to understand, I have left now for about 3 years and am only now really making headway in mending my relationships with my family, my mother tells me how painful it was for her to slowly watch her son being removed from her emotionally, God I can only imagine what that feels like ...

I really wish you all the very best.

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by babies
Thank you for the welcome may I ask another question with regard to who do you tell what is going on? I am obviously aware and researching but do I inform other family members in order to prevent further damage by her actions and words or do I keep it with me and field family questions without letting on?

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by Mr Green
I would say, but obviously only my opinion that it is best to tell other family members but also warn them not to approach your mother too directly or challenge her in a way she feels threatened.

A lot of people who become surrendered are at a point in their lives where they are need to feel loved and like they belong somewhere. The BKs appear like an instant solution to these feelings, bear this in mind ... your mother probably needs a lot of love in herself right now.

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by ex-l
babies wrote:Thank you for the welcome may I ask another question with regard to who do you tell what is going on? I am obviously aware and researching but do I inform other family members in order to prevent further damage by her actions and words or do I keep it with me and field family questions without letting on?

Yes, welcome to the Forum ...

and as someone that lent my support to the BKWSU and helped in my small way to make them what they are today, I apologize for bringing this grief to your family.

You have to tell your family in as an impartial and detached way as possible. Try and avoid the cliched "cult member" horror story. I would not say that the BKWSU is that far gone [yet] but certainly tell them to keep an eye on their purse string and properties!

The BKs seem to invest a huge amount of effort into creating a public face. The best antidote to this is just to go direct to the core of the teachings; the 5,000 year Cycle, Dinosaurs 2,500 years ago, failed predictions or rolling date of "Destruction" [the end of the world], God allegedly possessing a little old lady in India, the spiritual caste system [Brahmins versus Shudra]. These are all stuff the BKs hide away until you are successfully "purified" ( hypnotized or incredulity ground down in my book).

Now, it may well that some or all of these teachings have truth in them - I pass no comment - but at least allow the other to go direct to the teachings and then decide for themselves. Ignore this debate, just focus on the practicalities; her health, her comfort, personal acceptance but not institutional acceptance.

In truth, if you do strip this away, you will start to see the truth of the BKWSU. It may just be in endless tiresome one way conversations - because she thinks you are interested! On the other hand, it may knock her back to looking at and addressing her own doubts and questions.

There are a load of resources on this site such as training manuals, Murlis and teaching posters, here;

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by sanity
Hello everyone

I have a problem not too dissimilar from Babies'. A few months ago, I fell for a woman before I discovered that she subscribed to much of BK philosophy (aka BK oblox).

1. She doesn't rate meditation although, because it has been objectively proven, I do accept it.
2. She likes the cuddly, warm "be nice to each other" stuff but then, don't we all ?
3. Because she know no better, she accepts without question the BK's oblox about the 5,000 year cycle and all the supporting stuff like dinosaurs suddenly being transformed.

Acceptance of #3 means that, despite her intellect, she now rejects all scientific thought.

I don't think she's totally beyond recovery. It would be nice to find a reasoned refutation of BK oblox. However, ISTM the problem is that the BK stuff is so bizarre that nobody has posted a reasoned refutation. How can one rationally refute complete oblox ? Would contributors be kind enough to point me at suitable resources to help me recover this otherwise wonderful woman.

Thanks in anticipation

PostPosted: 24 Nov 2006
by john
I don't want to appear insensitive here with family issues etc., but are you the new posters here more concerned about your own happiness or the happiness of the person involved with the BKs?

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by sanity
My motivation is my own business. Please concern yourself with answering my questions.

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by Mr Green
Hi sanity,

as has been said in other posts, try not to be confrontational with her regarding what she sees as knowledge, but challenge her gently.

Keep up the cuddles, everyones loves this if they are honest.

As for refuting knowledge, this is very difficult because although it is oblox as you say. Convincing someone who has made the decision to accept it as truth is not a straight forward thing. She will probably not respond to logic.

I think the point John is trying to make is that ultimately if this is what she wants, then it is up to her.

But all the best.

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by babies
Dear John

I am concerned for both me and her and the wider picture.

Firstly, she is my mother and i love her and still want her as my mother in my life, however rocky our relationship is or has been we are still blood and part of each other.

Secondly, i am concerned for her as her path into the BKs was a long spiritual discovery this has certainly not been the first time I have worried for her happiness and well being.

Thirdly, i worry about the wider ripples that go out to friends and family and where i cannot be to neutralise feelings. She is closing doors with her views and reactions and i worry for her if she wants to get out.

I would be wrong to say I am not concerned for my own happiness but my mothers happiness is part of that for me I cannot separate the two.

I don't want to lead her away from where she feels happy i just want her to have balance in her life and where she is now is not balanced. She relies on the BK inner teachings and workings for everything.

She is also a grandmother to my children and i have a real problem with things she tells them. One is at a gullible age, not stupid but beautifully wide eyed and trusting and she works that if i am not there. Example being, at a family gathering including my husband's family I was asked by my child what i did in the Silver Age, I was angry embarrassed and hurt that she felt it was her right to tell my children these stories.

If i felt the BK life was balanced and that she could be objective i would not worry so much but it is all or nothing as far as I can see in her situation and that I believe is unhealthy for anyone.

I don't want to stunt her spiritual growth I just want her to be happy but free. I still want her to be part of my family but I cannot accept the way she corrupts my children's minds. It is a privilege to be allowed to place ideas and nurture a child's growth and to do that they have to be allowed to explore for themselves not be told.

I don't want to push my mum away I want to be here if she needs me but I also need to be able to say NO we do not believe without undermining or hurting her. I think that may be my dilemma.

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by Mr Green
I think as far as the children are concerned you should tell your mother straight that it is unkind to steer such a young mind into something she has chosen. Your child has not taken that choice as obviously too young to do so

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by bansy
To all newcomers, babies, sanity and invitedtobeBK, welcome to this forum.

Firstly, there are many subforums in this "Mother of all Raja Yoga Forums", and it is good you post into "NewComers". The other subforums are more heavy going for newcomers. I think what some of the members here are suggesting is that Raja Yoga and Gyan (the "knowledge") is not just educational which you learn from a textbook or magazine, but also very much practical, which means it takes into account a lot of actual experience and feelings. Because we are talking about spirituality, it goes in deep.

We may not be able make a "quick" fix solution to your immediate problem, as time is the only factor you have. So you need to be a patient, at the same time stick with the forum here and take each step to understand your personal situation and also try to pick up the various issues that are raised. This will give you a better picture overall.

Secondly, it may not be a BAD thing your concerned person has gone to the BKs, for now. There is a reason for them doing so, and yours worrying so will just add to more worries, which will mostly be your own. However, do not abandon your friends, sometimes friends do not know it until later on how much you were there for them. Remember also that non-interference with another person's life is also helping them. In addition, there are also good BKs as well as poor ones, so try hope that your concerned party encounter the the good ones, and they will eventually come back.

Good luck.

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by john
sanity wrote:My motivation is my own business. Please concern yourself with answering my questions.
Mr Green wrote:I think the point John is trying to make is that ultimately if this is what she wants, then it is up to her.

Mr Green is correct.

Sanity, you have come onto this forum for some advice or to sound out what is going on. In that you should consider what is said and not just pick out the bits you want to hear. I feel you should do this to get a more balanced, less reactionary view.

I feel I may have trod on a nerve with you and I apologise for that, but that in itself says something.

PostPosted: 25 Nov 2006
by babies
ex-l and bansy

Please do not apologize my mum has been on a long journey! It started over 20 years ago with self assertiveness and and progressed further and further, none of us have ever wanted to stop her just help her find what ever it was she was looking for.

She was introduced to the Brahma Kumaris whilst working abroad (guessing it was 2001) and at a time. in my opinion, when she was vulnerable and very disallusioned with life. She certainly wasn't swept away and reasoned and questioned for a long time, as always with my Mum.

The beginings were fine she was happier than ever and what she was telling us seemed good and moral as does all the PR for the BK. We were all just so chuffed she was happy and that it all seemed so harmless and innocent. Hence we did not worry until she retired from work and Surrendered.

It is fair to say for sometime we were all very aware that she was getting in deep by her actions, no meat, onions etc and then 4am alarms when she stayed with us so as to meditate. But she seemed to be also living in our world at that time, she so often just switches off now that you cannot really have a conversation unless it is one way. Believe me my Mum has lectured me so many times that I then switch off too!

I am not expecting a 'quick' fix just help in keeping her open.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by focusing on the practicalities? How can I help her in those ways? Also to see the truth, what needs stripping?

PostPosted: 26 Nov 2006
by ex-l
sanity wrote:My motivation is my own business. Please concern yourself with answering my questions.

Sanity ... fair as it is, I can understand how John's answer was tactlessly blunt but ... no one is obliged to answer your questions. I think it is pretty hard to offer any comment without a little bit more information about what it going on in both your lives. There are a thousand reasons for a woman not to reciprocate with a man who has fallen in love with her and Gyan may just be a convenient facade for her but society as a whole has a right to know and discussion the effects of BK Brahmin life. It is not just for individuals and their subjective experiences. BK Raja Yoga is as addictive as drugs to those that have been bitten by the holy snake contained within it. Personally, I don't think that you can win on scientific logic.

One of the problem I have seen arising, time and time again, is that the BKWSU is not really not telling new students enough about what is going on. They sucked right into the intense addictive "Honeymoon" phase, "falling in love" with Shiva as it were or Shiva "entering their mind". Although with the New Agey-isation of the BKWSU, funnily enough, the BKs are starting to teach meditation as well but the active magic ingredient that makes BK Raja Yoga BK Raja Yoga is not the meditation, it is the Yoga; the psychic link with 'Shiva' or 'BapDada' - who they claim is God. Funnily enough, if she is not doing the meditation, you are probably on fairly safe grounds.
    How long and how deep has she been "in Gyan"?
    Which courses did she do?
    Has she been attending the centre?
    Does she follow their principles?
    Do you do BK Raja Yoga too?
I'd just make a mental note that BK Raja Yoga is not mere "meditation". There are no candles, breaths or wall at the other end if it, it is another independent living being that they are tuning into and you are up against it in a fight for her heart and mind.
John wrote:I don't want to appear insensitive here with family issues etc., but are you the new posters here more concerned about your own happiness or the happiness of the person involved with the BKs?

In defence of the newcomers, I like to say that there are individual's interests, the organizations interest but also societies interest. And if we accept the possibility that the BKWSU's interest and "God's" interest might not be entirely parallel, society - which means other third parties - has a right and responsibility to keep an eye out for what is going on here.

For those newcomers, I'd throw this out; by its own teachings, the BKWSU talks about itself as a religio-political cult/sect/movement. A religious and political movement that is going to take over the world. They like to present them a fluffy New Age angels but - Destruction of the World and death of 6 Billion aside - they have been predicting first the Government of India and then the World being theirs.

Whatever they say, what they are engaged in - to exaggerate the strategy - is what the government calls a "hearts and mind" campaign. Winning over society, gaining ground within the commonwealth of society one heart and one mind at a time ... then a fair bit of attractive and expensive realty to follow. Given the subtleness of the strategy by which they are are doing this is the West, e.g. using attractive fronts, hiding the real teachings, society ought to be conscious and question. Its a kind of war, a propaganda war or psy-ops stage of the Mahabharata. They believe that they are the good guys saving you from the likes of me ... probably ... From our experience here, they are taking apart and destroying families, couples, friends and do put more emphasis on wealth, status etc within society then I would expect of a truly spiritual organization. A vast majority of BKs do leave in a few years of their own accord but their unpaid work and donations remain in the organization ... no doubt alleviating its poverty.

John, I have to say that I find it a bit hopeful thinking that we could start a thread on "living with a BK". I'd say it was not possible for either party. To quote the Murli, "Storks and swans" and all that. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that ...

What at least we can do here is translate into English what the hell it is BKs are talking about to non-BKs and flag up their secret service ways. My biggest disappointment with the BKs is that not only are they getting into all that corporate oblox but they seem to have gone neck deep back into superstition and Bhakti with their pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani and Senior Sisters all over the place.

Nope ... wild propaganda like Gold and Silver Aged theory to 6 year old kids is irresponsible. Who knows what else is going on there ... ghost stories of Maya and Ravan ... lectures on celibacy ... full body washes after poo-ing ... its sounds like the woman is going nuts AS WELL as being in Gyan. Its hard to tell the two apart but they are not at all inseparable and the BKWSU is not quick to pick up on it, it is quite happy to drive its Sisters into the ground with stress and nervous breakdown ... and then let them go back to the lokiks to get looked after.

For you Sanity, try sitting down and watching the Kate Winslet movie 'Holy Smoke' with her, it ought to raise some interesting discussion about all sides on the issue. Reviewed over, here.

Keep feeding back and let us know how it goes.