Hi, I am new & would greatly appreciate some guidance

Dangerous becomes "purity", I mean celibacy, whenever we get the even slightest arrogance about it, and we start feeling "superior' to other humans because of it. I noticed also that, due to karma, this type of attitude usually brings the arrogant one to a quick downfall into impurity ...

Funny though, how in many other spiritual paths, abstinence is considered as something temporary like a fast, that can be a helpful tool in getting a clearer mind, link with incorporeal God, or whatever. For BKs, it's a lifetime commitment to be followed even when one doesn't feel it's obviously beneficial, possibly out of fear. Not really a good, strong motive!!

One of the reasons that I felt quite strongly disgusted by your idealistic view of the BK, Andrey, is that I have seen, and continue to see, too many incidents where BKWSU Sisters damagingly involve themselves in other people's relationships, or marriages, in ways that are clearly beyond common decency, perhaps even legality, nevermind Shrimat.

In one incident recently, even producing false or ambiguous letters for the damaging party who, because of their engagement with the BKWSU and Honeymoon madness went ahead and destroyed their family, affecting two children, damaging the professional life of their partner and causing not 10,000s but 100,000s of Dollars worth of needless expense. The individual in question was not even following Maryadas. I could say much more ...

Reading through that enlightening "Is This Justice?" book, you can see 70 years the entire debacle really did arise out of Lekhraj Kirpalani interfering in with other people's marriages and arranging a "fake" marriage for his own daughter to a member of the Om Mandli.

I know from having been on the other side of the table what goes on in the BKWSU, how they talk about lokik partners, the "devices" the Sisters encourage individuals to use, what the real sentiments are. And there is no doubt that during the Honeymoon Period, BKs go mad in love ... they are in essence mentally and emotionally unfaithful to their marriage partners falling madly for these bodiless spirits.

I have seen supposedly "successful" mixed marriages, e.g. marriages where the (usually) husband goes along with the wife's interest in the BK but I was not blind to the discomfort and embarrassment of the partner. In truth, they stopped being partners and became live-in acquaintances. Yes, brother-sister is probably the closest way of describing it ... there was a sense of having to put up with it. I have not seen ANY couples where the other partner is raring to go to support the BK.

So, the BKWSU HAS been splitting up families for 70s and feels justified to do so defending the so-called Brahmin soul over the evil Shudra ... it is laughable to call it the "household path". By the predictions, it will continue to increasingly break up not just husband and wife, but Brother and Sister, parent and child ... if you believe in the Mahabharata. I'd like to see some facts and figures on this.

It is the Household Path only because the organisation could not offer ashrams for followers to go to for financial reasons at the start of the expansion and found it a better financial model to transforms family homes into being its centers. A model it continues to develop in the West where BK followers pay individual personal mortgages for BK centers.

This is one area where your idealistic exclusion from the greater BK "Family" disadvantages you. In all truth, I think you would be equally disgusted and upset - from a Brahmin point of view - if you too saw the contraventions of Shrimat, the dishonesty, collusions and manipulation going on generation after generation of BK.

Now, imagine being a new student sitting in front of this woman's ex-husband llistening to him talking about how BK Raja Yoga is the Family Path or doing service talking about "virtues" and "values" ... sadly, this is too like what the BKWSU is becoming.

As far as I can see, although it is a little early to say for sure, there are also individuals or a movement within the BKWSU for BKs, Sisters mostly, to use the powers of divorce to grab money and property which it appears the BKWSU is happy to accept. This to me stinks very badly. I think this is actually not accurate according to the Murli. Fine, if a BK wants to leave, let them ... but let them leave behind the family property and wealth and go to Baba.

It is said that some Indian Sisters have used Western divorce laws to get rid of their "Shudra", non-BK husband, given the house to the BKWSU, and then become so-called surrendered Sisters ... i.e. supported by the Yagya in reward for their donation. This needs investigating to see if it is true.

The example we are given is of Lekhraj Kirpalani and Shewakram ... but even that story is up for review as "make-believe" now that it says in the Om Radhe book that in 1938 Shewakram still owed Lekhraj Kirpalani money and this was used against him.

And I tell you what ... for all the talk of high minded spirituality, mind-control and stopping waste thoughts ... when push comes to shove some allegedly fairly senior BK Sisters gossip like fishwives amongst themselves and act like a little spy-ring, often in Hindi so Westerners cant follow it. If ever you get a phone call from a BK you can pretty much guarantee that it is not just social but that they have some alternative agenda in mind.

Yes, without a doubt they would do this without a thought or to the detriment of others' relationships. What I want to know is who organizes or incites all this, and for what purpose, because it is almost certainly not Godly? Would you not agree?

Hi. Just a short one Di ...

I was reminded by someone else that if you have, and cherish, any family photographs, shared memorabilia, etc; hide them away.

Just as they are keen tot ake family money or property and donate it to the Yugya during their Honeymoon Period (service via money, karma cleansing), BKs are told/encouraged to destroy them by way of burning their bridges to their lokik family. It is all part of the renounciation trip that sort of contradicts BKWSU being "The Householder Path".

Cue PBK accusations of the BKWSU SS being sannyasis !!!

Beware.

Thanks Ex-i, not a problem there. He was never interested in photos etc anyway. i gave him one and he threw it in the trash so ...

Boy, oh boy is he cranky at the moment. Rang me about the internet account, I asked when it was due and, boy, did i get yelled out. When i said something he said ... "do you expect me to be all nicey, nicey and sweet?" etc, etc.

Curiouser and curiouser ... either life with out Di is getting tough, I know everything he touches is still turning out bad, or life in the lap of the BKs is not all as shiney as he thought? Maybe he is wondering if it was such a wise move? Too late now to rethink. I could never trust him again. Sorry, feeling really low tonight, I'll get over it ... he almost sounded paranoid ... maybe he'll get lucky, lose it totally and get commited. Or maybe his mother is asking him to do too many chores ... one can only hope.

Has anyone else experienced, or know of anyone who has experienced, something like this?The man should be ecstatic, not aggro and paranoid. He has everything he wanted ... freedom from responsibility, as much meditation as he wants, and to get rid of the number one problem in his life - me. Is this a normal thing after renouncing and betraying your life partner? Where is the light, peacefulness and unconditional love I am supposed to be seeing? I only saw that before he went back to meditation.

BTW, where are you Andrey?

"do you expect me to be all nicey, nicey and sweet?" etc, etc.

You can tell him that "Baba says, the true nature of the soul is peace and that Baba's children are the children of the Ocean of Peace."

Yes, it is Shrimat that he is all nicey, nicey and definitely sweet. Each morning God remembers him as one of his "sweet children" in the Murlis welcomes. You can tell him confidently that what he is doing is defamation of the Father and of the Family.

Yes, I have heard of pseudo- or so-called BKs turning nasty when their number is called. Women too. I have experience damaging backstabbing by a BK individual that I did a number of favors of or and thought of as a friend. It is quite a shock. I think it is part of the nature of the beast.

The unenlightened wing of the BKWSU would just say it is nothing to do with them but YOUR karmic account.

He is in the Shiv Shakti Army ... Refer him back to his Senior Sister (not center-in-charge, higher ranking than that). Ask to speak to his superior.

Hello di,

I am a new participant in this forum but I have just read most of the posts related to your topic. I must admit that I have been in a "similar" situation as your "mate". This doesn't mean that I handled it in the same way.

You see, I have been involved in a few serious relationships since I left the BKs and somehow they were all coloured by my inner-fight between what I felt for my partner, and that which I thought I knew (BK Knowledge).

I was always careful not to download this fight into our relationship and I did not even explain anything about my previous life as a BK. I also never married or had kids. Nevertheless, I was neither "here" nor "there", if you know what I mean.

Today, I am alone and rather happy because it is the only way I can keep from hurting another woman. I have short loving romances where I can be, and express, myself. What a pity that this inner fight has taken away many years from my life. But what a wonder that it has turned me into a fully responsible man towards my love partners. Maybe I will one day be ready to have a family.

If you allow me to make an opinion about your situation, I would suggest that you look at the whole spectrum of relationships today. Partners keep breaking up; if not due to BK influence, it is due to addictions, lust (not being able to be faithful to one partner), work stress, all sorts of unsatisfaction, you name it. But we are all very much in the same boat. And I mean ALL children of God.

What I feel you need right now is to do just what you're doing. No one is to blame but him and you. Go deep into this and you'll find at least PEACE.

Love, in the night.

Dear Brother Paul,

See in your posts and you'll see that it is only you who use the terms, "more spiritual", so there should be "less spiritual" too. So it is in your perception that there is some spiritual hierarchy where we get certain postition based on ... perhaps some qualities. We believe that all souls are originally pure and then pass through the 4 stages, so we make attempt to look at then as they are in their first period.

Yes, it is alll about this or that path. Which is the correct path, is it only one, or are there many? It depends on what are you searching for. If you like to become a healer or doctor, you adopt such tehniques. Achievements through Raja Yoga cannot be achieved in some other way. It is not a spiritual gathering where there is a spiritual leader. It is a Father that is there.

If people are hurt, i mean if i hurt, people. I make mistakes and this is not bad. The one who sees them and tells them to me is my friend. i can correct myself. But the one who never sees them hides them for me, and sees my bright side instead is my better friend.

Dear Brother alladin,

The purity you mention maybe is the purity of the sanyasis or monks, who look at woman as the gateway to hell, and ran and hid in the forest. The purity they follow is externally to restrain and control their body, but internally they continue to remember the past life. This is called "limited disinterest". Now we are thought to have "unlimited disinterest" to the world. The purity we follow is not temporary, because we believe we'll be entering heaven in this life in this birth, through this body, where there is the world of purity.

It is not temporary because we believe that this state of celibacy is the natural, or original, state of the soul, so it is also easy. This supreme celibacy, as it is said in some pictures here, is not like the celibacy practiced even nowadays by many. It is the familly path. The aim of the study itself is to become a couple like Lakshmi and Narayan. It is said that the physical Father engages you for one birth and the spiritual Father engages you, he creates such couples that last, that die together and take birth together, that keep company with one another, raise, play, live together for 21 births.

We think that we can become pure only through rememberance of ShivBaba and no other physical way of fasting etc. The whole effort is in this. If someone indulges in vice then due to some feelings of guilt, or whatever, this remeberanec becomes locked. But then it is said that if the soul has fallen it can still stand up, and rise if he has courage. The Father can forgive and the soul can start making effort anew. The Father is saving the soul and not the body. He sais that i don't have any responsibility for the body you are in and cannot do anything for the accounts you have created with it. That's why he says for mothers that if the heart, mind is pure etc. there is no sin accumilated (if she has to suffer violations from the husband).

Dear di,

I have posted because i also have problems with relationships as 'in the night' has mention. Probably we all have. The difference is that to start with we think that the blame is in me or in him. Then we understand that the problem is much bigger and the solution is more general.

You have also made claims towards your husband and the BKs and i felt that your husband, as with anyone, deserves a certain amount of respect and support as he is probably not in an easy condition also. His wife is the last person to come and speaks for him as if he is not well. I feel there is something very wrong in coming and relating personal things. Yes, i understand that it is a cry for help, but where will the help come from? For example, in the AA, how can an alcoholic help another alcoholic to become non-alcoholic.

That's why this idea that gatherings can create some temporary enthusiasm but also become instrumental for peole to degrade one another, because no one is perfect. No one is pure. That's why we believe the only good company is only the company of one.

You have also made claims to the male part of the society, so i have to reply. We believe that the woman is dependant, whether she thinks she is not. This is her failure to see. Whether it is from her Father as young girl, or husband when she marries or children when they grow. Instinctively, she looks for support. If she finds and takes supprot of only one, then she is happy. If she is influenced by many, she is confused.

I also feel you have been given incorrect information about the BK. The information you are given is correct, in terms of whether it is like this or not. Yes, it is like this, everything you hear here is like this, but things you hear here are not to be related. The BK is not created for this purpose

Dear Sevas parents,

Excuse me as i have misunderstood the situation. I saw a lonely scared child and his participation here was not helping him a lot according to my judgement. I thought there is a problem at home it seems you have no problem. I thought that the child thought that the parent is strange and crazy, and when coming here he was left with the impression that yes, definetely, he received a confirmation ... definitely my parrent is on the wrong track ... so i have problem at home - thinks the child - and the problem is with my parent.

Is this correct? Why should he think this way? I just liked to explain him that to die alive etc, The Knowledge, is not for something bad, the results are not bad, there is nothing to fear about, and infact one will feel happy with it. Is there any other source? If the parent is a BK and he hides it, is this correct? If he hides his belief, the child with think that why is he hiding, definitely they are wrong in some way. Or am i wrong that i cannot understand him?

The problem comes when one thinks that to be a BK means to wear white, go to center, go to India. Is it not possible that one is a normal person still ascribes to the ideas and share them unofficially with members of the familly, friends and relatives in as easy, natural way? The whole world now feels we are facing Destruction, why should we hide if we know what has to be done?

Should we deprive others out of fear that we may deprive them from the happy days of childhood whilst at the same time we make the appropriate effort for ourselves? Is this fair for the child even if he has to grow up a little very fastly in his undertsanding? Is it not better then to live in ignorance, closing eyes to reality? To close eyes to the problem will not eliminate it.

We are facing a big problem for the whole world and we also have a solution that should be given to everyone. There are children who follow The Knowledge and are very intoxicated and even bring their parents. Should we be so delicate about it? If there are films produced that can show Destruction and one can feel scared and cry, because it knows this is what is to happen, but also does not kow any way to escape it, and solution, then these films are OK. But to listen to the muri, or to have The Knowledge explained, is too much for a child. Of course, it should be done delicately, appropriately, but who can do this for the child bettern then his own parents?

No one is to blame but him and you. Go deep into this and you'll find at least

Spoken like truly "BKWSU conditioned" individual ... on the basis of observation and experience, I strong disagree. The BKWSU, the SS, or individual BKs definitely come into blame for meddling in partners' relationships. Wise is the BK that keep well away from playing guru to other BKs having relationship issues with their lokiks.

Part of the BKs' unwritten Ten Commandments is; "Lekhraj Kirpalani and the BKWSU is never to blamed, it is all your fault and your karma ... all the words and actions of the BKWSU SS are free from karma and they too have no blame, Baba takes responsibility for their actions at all times". Hogwash ...

That's why he says for mothers that if the heart, mind is pure etc. there is no sin accumilated (if she has to suffer violations from the husband).

Just as an aside, if it is OK for a BK wife to be "violated" by her non-BK husband, is it not OK for a BK husband to be violated by a non-BK wife?

Should Di's husband not stay with his family (rather than running away to the forests of the BKWSU) and allow Di to "violate" him until she is satisfied, and satisfied that their karma is over and he can then go?

A marriage is, after all, a legal contract between two individuals. BKs should have HIGHER principles than non-BK "Shudras". Actions by non-BK "Shudra", e.g. divorce, infidelity, should not excuse or encourage a BK to behave in a similar manner. Would the BKWSU, for example, encourage a BK businessman to break a contract because he felt like it!?! Of course, not, one has to honor one's accounts. So why do the BK Sisters play a part in destroying families and coming between partners?

To revise the first point, if the law only applies to Sisters and not Brothers, there must be a deep reason for it. I wonder what it is? My feeling is that there is not. It was merely Lekhraj Kirpalani dealing with his female followers on the basis of his own interest, projecting his own issues about love, sex and marriage ... and acting above both the law and social conventions of his time.

My consistent problem with your opinions are that they are not based on reality but largely based on an utterly romantic and fictional "India" and "Indian conventions". Your, and I guess Virendra Dev Dixit's, opinion about women appear to be straight out of the Law of Manu and other Shatras, e.g. women's 3 stages of dependency to a male's ownership. Life has, basically, never been like that. Women have led countries, women run matriarchal societies, women live equal lives, women support men ...

They are opinions, which I take to be from Virendra Dev Dixit, unless you are manifesting a past life as an India, that seems to appear the lack of any objective observation or analysis. Yet, you drill them into your own mind and others time and time again until they become real to you ... unaware of how hurtful or damaging they are to others, esepcially children. They may have a reasonable relevance to the villages of India where Virendra Dev Dixit is seeking following but much of life has outstripped Gyan and that experience.

They are not real. They belong in some messed up, repressed Victorian India. Of course, the BK/PBK defense is ... "OK, so what, we are only look for a few, it is not their fortune, they are not Golden Age, they are impure, we are pure, they are wrong, we are right" ... which excuses the BK for having to modify their world view at all. I never realised HOW entrench and primitive the PBK view was with regards to male-female theory. You, personally, need to broaden your experience of life.

But, please tell us about Virendra Dev Dixit/Baba's sex life/marriage so we can make a holisitic comparison ...

With regards BKs being allowed to influence and effect children ... I think you have finally pushed me to the point where I think the best thing to do, borrowing the symbolism of the BKWSU where fire is Yoga and Pandav's weapons are of truths, is just "burn" the artifice of the BK centers down and run them, the Kauravas, out of town !!! . Obviously we are talking metaphorically here, not literally. It is, according to the BKs, the time of the Mahabharata War after all.

Please read a child's experience of growing up inside the BKWSU, this was fromt he Brother of the girl that was sexually abuse in Madhuban and Delhi centers but what I want to point out is the mental strains caused by all the BK crap like failed predictions of Destruction, Indian reincarnations etc. Please read it and tell me, honestly, if it sounds like healthy child rearing; Disclosing letter from Child X’s Brother

Thanks to everyone for contributing.

Spoken like truly "BKWSU conditioned" individual ... on the basis of observation and experience, I strong disagree.

So i might start to wonder if it is really an absurdity to imagine that the topic has 'co-incidentally' led us to realise that there are BKs, let alone newcomers, who would greatly appreciate some guidance!

But guidance on what? Since the presumption is that a Gyani soul has The Knowledgeable One as Teacher. What happens when/if I become aware that life with the BKWSU really does prepare me to recite 'rehearsed' theories as a reaction to real life situations?

Members within the BKWSU do actively encourage people to leave their partners if they feel they will gain another pukka BK to their stronghold of 900,000.

Believe me. I used to be involved in such activity.

What you humble virtuous spiritual BK types don't realise, is that your Seniors are involved in a desperate and intense quest to achieve the task of finding all the "heir souls" (should that be ars e-holes).

Anyone is fair game. Scruples here don't even exist. You see a pukka teacher believes the only mercy that exists is for a soul to be given their Godly inheritance, sod their family ... If they're not part of it, "it's just not in their fortune".

Thank you Mr Green for your honesty. I consider I have gotten off lucky. Still got the finalities of legal process, but hopefully finished within a fortnight. Hope he doesn't play games too much, I have him by the short and curlies. It will only cost him more money. The center head should have done some more research first on how much she thought she could swindle out of him ...

He is now wearing with pride his silver BK ring ... it replaces the wedding ring, I guess. Should have seen his shocked face when I explained he has been unfaithful to me ... I supported him going to meditation when life got a bit uphill for him, I was there to take the load off his shoulders and make life easier for him. In other words, I trusted a BK and the simple fact is, they are untrustworthy, unreliable, are unable to keep their word, full of promises and deliver nothing just like the organisation.

Anyway, I have written the email to him renouncing him and all the crap that goes with him. My form of closure, I suppose. Hard nasty truths of the person he is. I now turn my back and am walking away. He finally turned his back and ignored me for the final time the other day when I was in severe pain that he caused.

The response I got? How corrupt is this? "Di, you need to stop focusing on this and get out of the house more. This is not important, think of other things". How condescending and despicable is that to a person you called wife and professed you loved and would never hurt? Totally incapable of feeling anything for another person, total betrayal, and this is what they call unconditional love???

I know I am only one of many, and know that there are families in a far, far worse position than me. I can understand how it has driven spouses to suicide and breakdowns. The mental torment is incredible. Thanks to this forum, and my family and close good friends, I will come out of this. I will survive and continue to grow and achieve. I am lucky as this is the up bringing I had.

I had always been the sort of person who zones straight in on the 'good' side of people and have gotten on well with virtually everyone. This experience has destroyed that in me now. No longer do I look a people with an innocent naivety, thinking they are innocent till proven guilty. Now they are guilty until they prove themselves to be trustworthy, responsible and earned respect. This has reversed my outlook and who I am as a person, and I resent the BKs for having done this.

For those BKs that still have the programed responses ...

Never ever be fooled that this experience does not have a profound and life long effect on those the BKs have victimized. This is something you carry for life. There are no excuses for doing this to another person, especially when there are children involved. It is beyond the lowest, most disgusting of behaviours known to man.

I will condemn him and belittle him on a world wide exposure simply because it is the truth. I have no reason to lie or to distort my story and what has happened to my family. No cover ups from me. I am glad to have been able to write my experiences for others to read, so they know this is the norm. This is the expected and highly probable outcome. Not one posting from a happy BK couple. Lots of stories how someone knows them ... BKs are full of stories, but no evidence of facts to back them up.

The BK org does not carry a special permit card that all BKs are immune from the rules of prior commitments, ethics, morals and laws of society. Karma is not responsible for our actions, we are. If a person embraces the BK philosophies because of their own weakness, they are still responsible. They become egotistical, arrogant and conscienceless beings with no ethics who shirk all responsibilities. It is just all covered up with a sugar sweet nice superficial exterior. Anybody who says otherwise is still on the euphoric 'high' and blind. I am not an anomaly, just the norm for those out there that are shaking their heads aghast at what I am saying, thinking I have it all wrong.

This is the truth, this is what it is about, this is what it does. i don't care if you don't like it, this is real, no made up stories here. The honeymooners believe with all their hearts they are doing right, but they still have a responsibility to evaluate their actions, and the effect of their actions. Not because, "i was told to do it and Shiva promises this". Yeah, that would hold up in a legal court ... not.

Hate to say it, but the rules still apply and one day it will catch up. Maybe not immediately but it will. There is no escape for the guilty parties, and unfortunately no escape for those who have been abused and betrayed by the BK recruitment program. Hitler would have been proud of it.

This has been a very successful campaign by this centre charge. Fact is though, he chose it over his family. I have no time for him and am sick and tired of hearing "how i don't understand". What an idiot. I am way past him as far as understanding goes thanks to the people in this forum. He has been insidiously and underhandedly instructed how to cause the most intolerable suffering on another person and children, how to make every excuse for it, how to desert family and, most importantly, how to ignore and turn away from the destruction and turmoil he causes and thinks he deserves and has earned a gold star for it (or is that a silver ring and a big badge that says 'I am a good boy"?).

I am tired of hearing how this is not what the BKs are all about. This is what it is all about, if you can look at the grass roots level of the org. There is nothing Godly about this. It is evil. I have not yet seen anything that is light or spiritual. Heard a great deal about it, but not yet seen it. Just like the promises the BKs assure will happen, just like the promises the BKs continually break and then lie and cover up in order to keep 'the promise' in the future. How long will it take people to realise that all it is is promises run by people who are powered by occult practices? The decrees written in blood that were to happen, haven't happen, the old 'truths' have been re-written by the new 'truths'; "Destruction" - did not happen, world population - oh dear, another absolute prophecy, wrong. You name it, it did not happen. All starry eyed fairy tales, and people believe this s**t? Even 2 year olds learn that if someone tells them something is wonderful is going to happen and it never eventuates, tey finally figure out it is nothing but a pack of lies. And these BKs are intelligent adults????

Appologies if anyone finds this offensive I have found this whole experience more than offensive as I know pick up the pieces, attend to teenagers damaged by the light of the BK organisation and find a whole new direction in life. If I seem harsh, it is well earned. If I seem to be betraying my ex-husband, it is well earned. It is not betrayal, it is simply the truth. A word the BK organisation needs to look up in the dictionary and find out the meaning of.

So, this is the end of this book. "My relationship with a brainwashed BK". Is there any other sort of BK? A person who vowed he had control of what he was doing, and he would make his own choices, not blindly do what he was told. I hope it helps someone else in some way. This is just a typical occurence. Nothing unique or outstanding, just the norm for misguided people on their way to being deities. Excuse me, I think I want to be sick.

Many, many heartfelt thanks for all those that have helped and those who have become close friends. In time as I recover, I will do whatever I can to help expose this evil sickness. It all boils down to this;

You cannot get good out of evil actions. Your programmed intentions may be good, but your actions are based on manipulations and lies. Like it or not. Evil begets more evil. Lies beget more lies. Coverups beget more coverups. This is the BK doctrine underneath the promises. (To date, none of which have been supported in any way, shape or form)

My love to you all, I will be quietly in the wings watching this all unfold. This just about does it for me. Please feel free to continue this thread as I am sure there are many others out there that are new and would appreciate some guidance.

This is not a play and this life isnt a dress rehearsal, this is reality and no matter how much you object you cant run away from the truth forever. This is what the free mediation and the BKs turn good, decent loving people into.

Most importantly, I want to let the people know how they have my unmost respect and admiration for their courage in telling the truth about their experiences in this cult and the light and love that they now give to others ... Now they are out and can once live again.

What happens when/if I become aware that life with the BKWSU really does prepare me to recite 'rehearsed' theories as a reaction to real life situations?

You now face a choice between living risk of self-responsibility or known-zombie-deadness of living according to formulas and rituals - exactly the Bhakti blind dependency thing you were supposed to be getting free of!

For the BKWSU, those are considered stages. It may be appropriate for some souls to live in zombie-prerehearsed recitation, according to them. They may be more open to "knowledge" later. It is enough that they love Baba.

The devotional relationship is totally accepted. After all, we are told it is family, the family of God. BKWSU have their motivations to encourage followers to expressed pretrained behaviors.

We all have areas in our life where are better informed, and areas we have a narrower, less understanding, more ritualized approach.

BKWSU portrays itself as teaching people to judge for themselves, not succumb to blind faith. As we see, they are completely vulnerable to blind faith, blind obedience is a virtue, say, "Haji" and be, "Ever-Ready." After jumping around like a trained monkey for 10 years, for those who are lucky, it becomes transparently limiting, if not impoverishing.

The best teachers will not slight the mystery of the unknown, the unique idiosyncrasies of each moment. No formula, or incantation can therefore be a solution. The only "solution" is the acts and loves of one's life. There is no extra socket needed, not to BKs, not to a God-concept. Not that anyone should give that up. I believe that religious affiliation, like circumcision, should be optional. I swam in the river of knowledge until my ego sense of self shrank like a sweater in hot water.

See in your posts and you'll see that it is only you who use the terms, "more spiritual", so there should be "less spiritual" too. Yes, it is alll about this or that path. Which is the correct path, is it only one, or are there many? It depends on what are you searching for. If you like to become a healer or doctor, you adopt such tehniques. Achievements through Raja Yoga cannot be achieved in some other way. It is not a spiritual gathering where there is a spiritual leader. It is a Father that is there.

If people are hurt, I mean if I hurt, people. I make mistakes and this is not bad. The one who sees them and tells them to me is my friend. I can correct myself. But the one who never sees them hides them for me, and sees my bright side instead is my better friend.

Whoa there, dear Andrey, don't go twisting words around in order to try prove yourself correct. There is no need for that! My point, I believe, is to say that the BKWSU promotes itself as being 'more spiritual' than anything or anyone else, and that everything else in their eyes is 'less spiritual'; which at the end of the day is a total judgement. You prove this point by saying that ""It is a Father that is there", as by your belief system (as a BK or PBK ...) you are only the one who 'has the Father'. I remember promoting that ideal too only to be proved wrong once I left the BKWSU.

Are you also saying that as an ex-BK I no longer have the Father? Or (in what you say are my words ...) that I am 'less spiritual' now? I would beg to differ on these points but again I am considering the language and cultural barrier which exists between us, which I am recognising are perhaps the main communication problems.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant about 'hurt people'. You may be categorically saying that it is OK to hurt people in your post by saying that "if I hurt people. I make mistakes and that is not bad" - I would agree that is is human to make mistakes but that is is not right to hurt people and one cannot continue hurting people all the time. And when we 'hurt' someone can we just write it off as a 'mistake' without learning from it.

Dear di, You have also made claims to the male part of the society, so I have to reply. We believe that the woman is dependant, whether she thinks she is not. This is her failure to see. Whether it is from her Father as young girl, or husband when she marries or children when they grow. Instinctively, she looks for support. If she finds and takes supprot of only one, then she is happy. If she is influenced by many, she is confused.

Noooo way, Andrey - you constantly surprise me that people still think this way. Its so 18th century and I think that it is one of the BKWSU's supposed processes to lift woman-kind up, so you need to update your thinking. You come across as extremely biased and sexist in your comments here.

I also feel you have been given incorrect information about the BK. The information herein is correct, in terms of whether it is like this or not. Yes, it is like this, everything you hear here is like this, but things you hear here are not to be related. The BK is not created for this purpose

The information given on this posting is not incorrect. It is factual, real and correct. Granted each posting may be coloured by an individual's experiences or own mental and emotional processes at the time, but there are too many 'stories' all saying the same thing. Read the postings with an open mind and you will see. I am currently feeling that you may perhaps have your own desperate need to defend the BKWSU/PBK systems so that you can feel more supported and secure within your own current limited belief system. If I was a modern day woman, i would take you to task about these comments but as your post is not directed at me then I can only answer in terms of my own understanding.

Without being condescending, I do however, humbly commend your courage and your ability to apologise for any mistakes you feel that you make ...

You have also made claims to the male part of the society, so I have to reply. We believe that the woman is dependant, whether she thinks she is not. This is her failure to see. Whether it is from her Father as young girl, or husband when she marries or children when they grow. Instinctively, she looks for support. If she finds and takes support of only one, then she is happy. If she is influenced by many, she is confused.

Dear Brother, what benefits do you see that both men and women will derive from such a way of thinking?

Dear Brother ex-l,

Cases where women torture men are more rare. It is less probable that a woman violates a man, because he is physically more powerful and she cannot succeed. But if she uses techniques of seduction, she may succeed because man is weak in resisting. It is said that when he sees an open plate he will like to eat. That's why it is said that he cannot follow purity. He cannot leave his nature of fighting a wicked war and doing bad acts. So woman can follow purity.

"Dependant" means she is like a piece of paper. She is open to influence. Then whatever is written stays there, she sustains it. That's why she need protection from bad influence. However many woman now do not think about themselves that way at all. They can be dependent of course from many, friends, relatives, some stranger etc, etc, which means in her memory there is some information about these that emerge certain feelings etc.

The happy woman will have only one big ... influence, or rememberance, or dependency, that will cover the whole piece of paper. It will make it full. Woman is the heart. That's why it is said that the young girl always remembers the first man. That's why it is not good that she is with some other man then. Just decades ago, virginity (purity) of the woman that a man takes used to be of importance. Now what has happened? It is not at all progress.

There are strict rules about purity in the Murli. Why should we think how to bypass them? It is said that one should not even look the one with whom one feels attraction, attachment.

See you ask about sexuality but only now is this talk possible. In earlier times, one would feel ashamed to talk about it. Is this retrograde? It is said that ... it is from a play ... there is a flower called "shy flower" ... when this flower becomes extinct, then people aren't shy anymore and it is a sign for an end.

Nowadays it is even considered impolite to ask about the salary of someone. What kind of questions do you ask? I understand there is a need to confess, to be open in front of someone, to empty one's heart in front of someone, but it is dangerous to do it in front of everyone. One should do it in front of one only. People are not trustworthy. They will use everything you say against you. They cannot merge your problems. And there is no need to relate faults of others in order to help them, because they know them for themselves even better than you can see them.

In the stories in the bible about Eden it is said that when they became consciousness of the body and felt shy that they were naked.

It is said ShivShakti - Pandava army. Shaktis are called destroyers of demons. Man cannot do that. They can achieve a high stage, where there is no difference from male to female.

What an image is to see a woman coming back from work. She has to go there to sell her charm. She has to be nice with many and please many.

Dear Brother paul,

We BK, PBK (we think all the people are BK, PBK), we don't think we are special. We are ordinary people. We live the same ordinary life as everyone eat dress, sleep, laugh and cry. We feel the same but what is special is the special knowledge we have received from the special source. That's why we are happy. Everyone can receive it and become the same. There are no restrictions. It is free. All have one and the same Father, but not all know one and the same Father. Father may also mean senior to you in ... older than you ... more mature ... more experienced. We play children and he plays Father ... Do BKs see others as strange or does others see BKs as strange?

Dear di,

Yes, i now understand that I am not right. I don't want to criticize you. I know it is not possible that someone is 100% right and other one is 100% wrong and there is fight or the other way. Both are right and wrong at the same time on certain aspects.

If one follows something due to some person, then it is said that the one whom you follow and listen to, and obeys you become your subordinate. If one follows human beings directions, it is a wrong direction. But why should we look the follower what he does, he may not do right, one should not discourage.

Is there a need for the child game of whatever you do to me, i do the same to you? it is said we should uplift even those who defame us. It is said that the full three bows down in humility to serve with its fruits. What if we are the best person in the world and hide so that no one can benefit? We should benefit, accept as worthy of help, everyone. Service is not a wrong word. One does service all the time, every day with face, smile, or disservice.

What if we learn about which life to live, how to live? We all start learning since we are born. We listen to some people, we believe them, we follow, we accept ideas and use them in life. That's why what one does may not be right. It does not mean what he has to do is not the right thing to do. It means the path to follow can be the right one, but how to walk is a matter for the individual.

That's why we do not discuss the person's behavior but the ideas, and not the ideas that should not be followed, not the bad examples. No. If we have the order to remember me, to become pure, then why not follow this due to this order from him (the Supreme Soul), for oneself, not due to one's husband? We should not base our happiness on temporary achievements. Name, fame etc. It all comes and goes, relationships also. Whatever happens, everything will turn to be good for us.

It is said that whatever the guru does the follower should not do this. He should follow what he says - the directions. What is wrong in the directions, to become soul-concious etc? It is also a matter of how we interpret ... detachment ... one can see it like holding back one can see it facing everything with a smile. One can see it like this or like that. We invent our own interpretation of how to incorporate in life, because we are not yet perfect. We need our thinking corrected. And we have a lot of hope in mothers.

It's revolutionary knowledge. If one takes the Murli then on each word a whole dispute can happen. Some say why is this and why is that? Generally those who don't like it don't read or listen a lot. They don't like if from the first word itself and are already in disgusting mood, then other listens or reads and they change their mind on some aspects. I think you understand everything very well, your situation, what should be done etc and do it with integrity.

Dear seva's parents,

I was thinking why should the child look and find answers from anyone outside? Mother and Father should be best advisors. However, yes, I, myself will go to my spiritual Father rather then my physical Father for advice but we sustain also spiritually one another. Physical relationships become spiritual. Now the word religion has become wrong and people fear it. They fear sects etc, but religion itself is something good. It means a way of life, inculcations, virtues.

Even not so long ago, in the family, there used to be more unity. Now with the advancement of technology in the information era one can find all sort of information to like and dislike. In the family earlier, all people were of one and the same religion. They were eating one and the same thing. They used to gather. They used to think one and the same think, to have one and the same perceptions, ideas, attidudes for life etc.

Now the family has become scattered. Everyone follows his own opinion, likes and dislike finds his own truth to believe in, leads free, unconcerned way of life. It is also normal that children live with parents after they marrying till the rest of their life. In early ages, parents took care of their children then the children took care of their parents. Such famillies does exist even today and sustain the world.