What do you think?

We have come to the Murli ... i had some on the table, not to talk about it at first but only for him to see.

He asked me where i got them from and i told him i got it from the site. Well he said they are not the real thing blah-blah-blah. Told him that after the 7 day cours and the advanced course i am allowed to read or hear the Murli.

"You are not reading it to me or give them to me ..." I said, "so i'll find my own way". (He never asked me to come to morning class). He asked me for a copy but i told him to bring his and we shall compare"!!!! See if they are the same ... Is there anyway to get the latest Murli from any BK so he can see that they are the same and not changed by PBK as he said?

He asked me where I got them from and I told him I got it from the site. Well he said they are not the real thing bla bla bla.

Without reading them first how would he know they are not the real thing? Why does he assume they are from PBKs?

Is there anyway to get the lates Murli from any BK so he can see that they are the same and not changed by PBK as he said.

The trouble is that they don't put the original dates on anymore, so it makes it very difficult to cross reference them.

If you are in with the right people then it should be possible to get the latest Murlis.

Why does he assume they are from PBKs?

I realy do not know, it must have been something that he was told by others or just an excuse.

He was quit shocked but i believe the shock of the Murli being the same thing will be greater. Its not that i want to shock him in anyway but it has to be said and done to finally awaken him.

I had some on the table, not to talk about it at first but only for him to see. He asked me where I got them from and I told him I got it from the site. Well he said they are not the real thing bla bla bla.

Yes, the context and the feelings are different at the center, or among of group of BKs. I recall one local Sister who when reading the Murli would burst out laughing on hearing herself voice Baba's more inflammatory or extreme statements. The language is so over-the-top at times.

Most of us did not take it in a heavy way. We took it with appreciative detachment, probably the way that others today might take the words of an old-time fire-and-brimstone preacher, not literally, but as a general message. The discussions during and sometimes after the Murli were aimed at 'helping' those in the class to see various aspects of Baba's language in the same light as the teacher.

I've heard the original tape recorded Murlis a few times, and Brahma Baba's voice seems steeped in gentleness to me. No question why everyone was so gaga over him. The strong language is not out of place in India, in Hindi, coming from him.

Out of context, or when used by center heavies for the purpose of manipulating others, the Murlis seem less kindly.

Here's what I want to know: what is so wrong about touch? BKs at Mt. Abu have a person on guard at the huge hall there (Om Shanti Bhavan) so that couples having their picture taken get a shrill whistle blow warning him not to put his arm around her. Seems strange to us, but is typical at many temples and shrines in India, not just at the BKs.

In a family, it is natural, healthy, essential for parents to hold and touch their children. The funny thing is that many adults need it as much as children, although in some cultures such contact may appear nearly absent.

Jann, I wonder if your sweetie is prepared to go through the rest of his life without touch. Even among the early BKs, the "children" (i.e. those who had 'recognized' Baba) were clinging to him all the time. He embraced them too, and for them it was heavenly, deeply comforting.

I suppose the difference is that erotic feelings are often heightened by skin-to-skin contact among normal humans. Sexual arousal, which might possibly lead to mutual genital play, is considered to be lustful and therefore harmful by the BKs: dulling the intellect and damaging the prospects for spiritual growth.

And if life-affirming touch leads to that kind of arousal, the faithful must be willing to sacrifice it.

For the faithful, the ecstasy of meeting God through meditation, constant remembrance, and through the Murli, generally substitutes for touch. Touch is considered a lower form of gratification, and ecstatic religious intoxication higher, especially if you have really found God, and are not just searching like the rest of the religions without precise knowledge of God.

The faithful believe that through practicing detachment and soul-consciousness they can eventually learn to give and receive touch without desire. The pleasure is okay, but the desire is not. Being needy is definitely not acceptable.

Many are successful at evoking sufficient pleasure chemicals to be happy within the BK way of life. Many are successful within celibacy as Christians, too. Not all. I don't think it is a matter of shame how we all find ways to self-regulate.

The morning class as meeting of Father and children is part of the BK way of experiencing love, connection, pleasure and intimacy. It is as respectable as any other way. Many BKs believe it is the only True Way(tm) which is sad because it leads to looking down on others.

If a warm, sensuous hug short-cuts the path of developing pleasure in this spiritual fashion, it might interfere with a person's efforts to find pleasure on a spiritual plane. After all, why seek love from God, when it is so readily available as an immediate embrace?

For those in this narrow renunciate mindset, going back to liberal hugs (and the ever-available sexuality that is so easily associated) is like an alcoholic going back to the drink. It is painful to be confronted with a choice of one or the other, especially when the one that seems most immediately pleasurable is considered a life-or-death failure.

So, Jann, it may be your sweetie's goal to receive all pleasure and positivity from One. It is up to you whether you are willing to set aside your pleasure needs for the months or years that he decides to pursue this path, if indeed it is possible to remain in some kind of partnership during this entire process. I know that in my case, it took about ten years to be ready to return to seeking fulfillment through non-esoteric means.

We have come to the Murli ....I had some on the table, not to talk about it at first but only for him to see. He asked me where I got them from and I told him I got it from the site.

There are two types of Murli. The first type is called Sakar Murli and is supposed to be the Murli that was dictated by Dada Lekhraj/Brahma Baba before he died. The BKs say they picked out the best Murlis, some of them, they say, were not recorded properly. They had no tape recorders at first. These Murlis are now read in a five year cycle at the centres on every day except Sunday. At the end of the five years they will start again and be repeated, so someone who has been a BK for 20 years will hear the same Sakar Murlis read four times over.

The BKs used to put the dates of the original reading of the Murlis on the Sakar Murlis, but they stopped that. They also started to edit the Murlis, leaving out the bits about the world being destroyed in 1976 as well as other embarrassing things like "God Shiva does not speak through a virgin". This last is embarrassing to them because they now say that Shiva speaks through Dadi Gulzar. So one way or another they are lying.

Either their Senior Sister and one of the three leaders is not a virgin, or Shiva is not speaking through her. (Dadi Janki is not a virgin, she says she was raped by her husband and had a child, but Dadi Gulzar is supposed to be a virgin) This can be even more confusing as Gulzar is also known by other names.

The other type of Murli is called Avyakt Murli and it is read on Sunday mornings. These are the Murlis that are channeled through Gulzar during the "BapDada season" which takes place in Shantivan at the bottom of mount Abu in India during the winter. People who have been practising BKs for 8 months are allowed to go there and hear the Murlis spoken by Gulzar (It used to be a year to qualify). Another way is to see the Murlis spoken during the season on the internet by web cast in a BK centre.

These Murlis are then spread out and read on Sundays all through the year. The original dates are usually printed at the top, as well as the dates they are to be read at the centres.

So, to answer your question, yes, the Murlis on the site are the same as the ones used by the BKs, but no, they will not be the same ones he is hearing on that day. Is that clear? There are not many Sakar Murlis available to non-BKs, and they are the most extreme ones, you will see plenty of Avyakt Murlis on the site, but they are less foreboding and scary than the Sakar Murlis, which talk a lot about destruction and the sins of the flesh etc.

The BKs keep these Sakar Murlis well guarded.

They use military grade security systems on their computers to stop people from reading them. They say they are the words of God, but they do not want anyone to read them unless they go to morning classes. The PBKs have all the Murlis, but mostly still in the Hindi language. Some they have translated into English. Arjun on the site has copies of these, and some are on the PBK website. You could ask Arjun for help if you want. Send him a Private Message or ask him a Question under the "PBK Questions" part of the PBK section of the forum. He is really a nice man, and he will not try to persuade you to meditate or anything like that if you don't want to. He is religious, but he does not push his religion on others.

Give it a try, ask him. Getting the latest Murlis is very difficult because the BKs want to make it difficult. Unless you go to morning class it is unlikely that you will see them. That is what they want to do, make you go to morning class. Then they can say they have converted another person and that looks good for the centre and brings in more prestige and money.

It is not the PBKs who have changed the Murlis, it is the BK Murli Team. Tell him that one! I am surprised that your friend does not want to show you a Sakar Murli. Does he not believe in sharing his God's words of wisdom with a seeker after truth? What sort of a friend is he? Maybe a BK reading this will show some compassion and send you tomorrow morning's Murli?

He asked me where I got them from and I told him I got it from the site. Well he said they are not the real thing bla bla bla.

Here is an authoratative statement on this issue Jannisder.

Its funny but I heard the exact same thing from other BKs in another country and so that must be the "official" party line they have put out intent on frightening their followers, especially newcomers, pretending to non-BKs that the Murlis are not accurate and incriminating this site. Please also be aware that the leadership have a policy of NOT informing all the local centers on what is going on, and how this site is affecting their "business", so do not accuse your local BK mushroom farm harshly. They mean their best and are being kept in the dark.

Rather than do the decent thing and just supply the Murlis or actually check the Murlis here to see if they are authentic, SPECIFICALLY stating what they mean or what variances they perceive, they are just painting the whole lot black. As if in someway they are tainted, just because we touched them.

I make no apologies for saying that, in my proven experience, this is the typical half-truth and obfuscation of the current day BKWSU that preys on your insecurity and lack of pre-knowledge of the teachings. Let us analyse this situation and examine what they mean SPECIFICALLY for any possible confusion.

There are 4 types of Murlis on this site;

• 1) English language Sakar Murlis that were supplied and translated by the BKWSU
• 2) English language Avyakt Murlis that were supplied and translated by the BKWSU
• 3) Abstracts of Hindi language Sakar Murlis supplied by the BKWSU but translated by ex-BK/PBKs
• 4) PBK Murlis (i.e. Murlis via Virendra Dev Dixit) supplied and translated by the BKWSU

• 5) In additional, there a personal summaries of Avyakt Murlis supplied and translated by the BKWSU and marked as summaries made by an active BK.

We can dismiss the number 5 because most are not complete, fair enough. You get the feel and the essence just none of the fluff and repetition. However, they can say that are not "the real thing".

We can dismiss number 4 because the BKWSU do not recognise Virendra Dev Dixit as a medium or channeller of God, fair enough. [Although please note, Virendra Dev Dixit knew Lekhraj Kirpalani real birthdate and a closer to true version of the history than the BKWSU advertise!]

So that leaves us with numbers 1, 2 and 3.

Number 1, the Sakar Murlis here; and number 2, the Avyakt Murlis here are accurate. I challenge the BKs to find fault in them and if they do, then just to correct it themselves. Except for perhaps the odd typo or the placing of a paragraph break, they were accurate copies of the ones they sent out. Because they were ones they sent out.

So, what do we mean by accurate?

Basically none of the Murlis are "accurate", especially the older ones. They have been variably translated by different people at different times, re-edit and elements removed by the BKWSU. So all Murlis, even those fresh from Madhuban have faults or omissions.

Equally, ever 5 years or so the Murlis are repeated. Does each 5 years comes out the same as the last 5 years? No. They remove items like failed predicitions of Destruction, change the population of the world because God counted wrong and increasingly erase non-politically correct items like things about people with dark skin (but nothings about men with facial hair) etc.

So what is an accurate Murlis? This years translation and edit, or a 15 year old translation of the same? The are pulling the rug from under your feet to create doubt in us. You have to go to them and sit in front of their throne before they will let you listen, never mind have them. We give you them for free when we can get them. And you must remember there are 1,000s floating around outside of the BKWSU - INCLUDING COMPLETE SETS.

So, please take this analysis and let them see it and answer each item SPECIFICALLY.

Show them the authentic Avyakt and Sakar Murlis and ask them to SPECIFICALLY point out the differences.

As far as number 3, the ex-BK/PBK translated versions of the BKWSU supplied Hindi ones, I think this is a very interesting area. Who is to say we can trust the BKWSU leadership to translate the Murlis accurately? Are they without a vested interest? Would it not be more academic to have a second opinion? Strangely, we have noted SPECIFIC differences. I would like to have all the originals to compare ... but the BKWSU think your and my intellects are too impure to understand them.

Strange how it takes an impure intellect like mine to point out the variences in their founder's age, the founding dates and 17 years of philosophical beliefs and strange how a pariah like Virendra Dev Dixit could have been right about such a thing then the Kirpalani Klan were wrong.

Perhaps "Pure Intellect" means something I do not understand. Or perhaps they mistranslated SatoBuddu instead of SatoBuddhi?

Oh Boy!!!

Something is going on ...

My friend just left and i gave him the printed copy's of the above posts to help explain that the Murli on this site are indeed the real thing. After he read a line or two he got all defensive saying that you (we) got it all wrong, being all negative, and we are not Baba's children and Maya will come after us. Blah blah blah.

I told him that many on the forum are ex-BK and some BK. His question was, why do some still call themselves BK while receiving all this (wrong) information? And all ex-BKs can only give negative information.

I told him that most of you stepped out because the organisation is screwing up ... but you are all fantastic people, honest and all Baba's children.

Oh, boy ... this is going to be a tough one ... ! Anyway, he took a copy of a Murli i printed out for him to compare. Well, you can not get an up-to-date one he said.

So help me out PLEASE. If you would like directly to talk to him, i will print it for him and give to him. It is the way to connect with him i believe ... i hope that finally he will sit down and talk on the forum himself.

Hi Jann

We haven't e-communicated before but I've read all your on-going posts with deep interest as well as all the replies that you have received. We are truly fortunate to have such wise and gentle people amongst us and my heart goes out to you at this time as to what you are so desperately trying to make right.

I don't think I have the right background or even have the right to even begin to tell you what I feel you should do as this situation you find in your life is so clearly challenging and your beautiful heart must really be taking some moments of pressure on an emotional level.

We are with you - please know that. I just wanted to acknowledge your request for assistance from the members of this forum and let you know we surround you with love, light and many blessings as you have found the courage to voice what so many others are going through or have experienced in the past. I will do my best to help you journey through what is obviously a turning point in your life and you're welcome to eith post or pm any questions you have and I'll try to give you a balanced and fair viewpoint. My history as an ex-BK Centre-in-Charge of many years ago may guide you a little but everyone else is doing a sterling job at supporting you too and do not know if you need or even ask for my input at this point.

I salute your courage and humility, enough to say that your friend is not even recognising that or any of your needs at all ...

With love
X Paul X

Something is going on ... My friend just left and I gave him the printed copy's of the above posts to help explain that the Murli on this site are indeed the real thing. After he read a line or two he got all defensive saying that you (we) got it all wrong, being all negative, and we are not Baba's children and Maya will come after us. Blah blah blah.

Jannisder,

If he is able to make such remarks without even checking , then his opinions are worth the droppings of a crow.

Actually, I don't see even if anyone checked on this forum, used their intelligence and discriminating powers (they've acquired as a BK), why they would consider leaving the BKs? Rather they should work towards putting things right from inside the BK organisation. Then they really would be doing proper service. Or they could just ignore it for an easy life.

Take the example of Christians, how many know of the wrong doings and crimes committed in the name of the church? I would say most Christians do, but that doesn't stop them being a Christian. Did God commit those crimes? Did Jesus commit those crimes?

Or was it those who used the name of the Church knowingly or unknowingly who committed the crimes?

Jannisder

You could always print out some of the more discussable topics (the Murlis is a sensitive issue ... they are the words of the "BK Divine") raised elsewhere in this forum that BKs have yet to reply, leave them lying around unattended. If he screws the papers up, take them out from the trashcan, straighten them out, but leave them in a stack in a half hidden corner. Tell them they were your copies and he had no right to have crumpled them.

But I am getting ahead of myself here, as he may actually want to keep them. Whatever, if at any time he gets angry, you shouldn't.

Well, he knows that i have the real Murli!! He was very surprised but seem OK with it.

Now I bring the BK rules into practise. To show him that he is breaking the rules.

Well, he knows that I have the real Murli!! He was very surprised but seem OK with it. Now I bring the BK rules into practise. To show him that he is breaking the rules.

Hi Jannisder, interesting approach but as an onlooker it is one that begs the question: Do you think that Brother is unaware of that point already? And if he is aware and those rule infractions are nontheless part of his way of being a BK then your pointing it out to him would be to state the blatantly obvious. So where the benfit in that? It would be like holding a mirror up to someone who already sees his reflection in every single surface he encounters and not only the ones specially prepared for mirroring.

By the way Baba often says in the Murli words to the effect: See your own face against the mirror of Knowledge. It is a point that invites us to check ourselves not against the utterances or model of another human but against the desireable ideals set by God (Shrimat). When we do this we may come to quickly realise the wisdom of Christ (was it)? who reminded: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And then the Murli says words to the effect: See the virtues in all and not their defects. Pick from their specialities and not point a finger at them for their flaws.

A BK is assisted, if he/she so wishes, to inculcate these teachigs in their life through understanding that whatever virtue is manifest in a soul it is only possible because God has given that. Therefore in the final analysis it is the character of Baba that is at the root of the specialities we see. He is the Giver of all Gifts. And so a pukka BK will always find it easy to remain in remembrance of God if these teachings are borne in mind when interacting with others in the drama. As for the defects? That's easy too because the awareness is that the soul is under an influence whcih is why the negativity has become part of its expression.

if I remember correctly one of the foremeost principles of a Gyani lifestyle is that one ought to think/say/do ONLY that which gives benefit to the self and others. So out of the BK teachings one mighht be able to craft a philosophy along the lines: By all means serve to uplift others but this is not accomplished easily if the method relies on reminding them of their faults.

Our transformation is accomplished by way of the love we develop for the beings we know we can become once again, rather than through any strong dislike (hatred) for the charateristics that portray our present corrupt state. In one of the very early 1969 Avyakt Murlis, Baba reminded the gathering that they must not see the defects of others. This is a teaching I try to bear in mind in all of my interactions.

P.S. There is much more to being a BK than following the rules. There is much more to serving the world than being an enforcer of dogma.

Om Shanti

You are so right, it is not fair of me to show him the rules. i probably misinterpreted them. He is a good man and i have to stop hurting him in that way. We better just enjoy each others company and make the best of it.

Time is to precious to be fighting something that , for him is already fixed. I just have to cope with that , and i will. He deserves that, and i deserve that he loves me the way he is able to.

Love Jan

By the way Baba often says in the Murli words to the effect: See your own face against the mirror of Knowledge.

P.S. There is much more to being a BK than following the rules. There is much more to serving the world than being an enforcer of dogma.

... as you have just done, bro! Sorry for flagging it up, ABK, but for a moment there you clambered onto the guddi and went off on BK Overdrive.

Nah, that lot doesn't apply here because the BK in question is way over the line and playing around a little. Last thing we read, Jannisder was going in as a Sister and so she has every right for pulling a Brother up when he breaks Shrimat in a gross fashion. Especially if that Brother is breaking Shrimat on her!

I think she has every right to know what the ground rules are meant to be and it is for us to clarify them for her. If only to give the correct impression of what Shrimat actually is. This guy does not seem to care that much. He's having his cake and eating it on both sides.

Also you are so right.

You know what? I think I'll have a little vacation. Hope someone is willing to send me a Murli batch next week.

Adios.