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paulkershaw

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Re: Simplicity

Post28 May 2007

in the night wrote:So after changing many old impossed habits, and when the benefits of meditation started wearing off, then the conflict started for me. I no longer desired to follow any codes and surely couldn't. So I left the BK but never stopped studying. This was almost a decade ago. Just recently I have started realising that I had to go through all this to grow up and be able to decide for myself.

My experience is that the BK knowledge doesn't in fact change old habits at all. It just slides on top of them and then overrides them for a while. This could be why we sometimes 'battle' so much whilst in Gyan.

As long as one 'keeps studying' then one will keep these old issues and habits under control but they will always be lying there just beneath the surface, waiting to emerge and surprise one again. Study can mean many things I suppose.

Real change comes when one is able to allow these old habits to come up to the surface and then acknowledge them as ones 'shadow side' and then make a determined choice as to which side one will work with, without letting the results get the better of one.

In this way, one can the let go of the guilt and frustration and rather play a game with oneself and not suffer mentally and emotionall endlessly and unneccessarily. After all when one faces the sun, there will always be a shadow, but it normally lies behind one.

This could be called 'gentle healing' ... the goal should be to become complete as a human being on all 4 fronts i.e mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually.

~p~
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zhuk

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Post29 May 2007

paulkershaw wrote:Real change comes when one is able to allow these old habits to come up to the surface and then acknowledge them as ones 'shadow side' and then make a determined choice as to which side one will work with, without letting the results get the better of one. In this way, one can the let go of the guilt and frustration and rather play a game with oneself and not suffer mentally and emotionall endlessly and unneccessarily. After all when one faces the sun, there will always be a shadow, but it normally lies behind one.

I couldn't agree more paul.

The constant BK-injunction (as I experienced it) to not allow any negative emotion/thought to "compromise your stage" :roll:, i regard as not only impossible without totally RIGID control (something i tried to do as I was told that was the 'only way to be happy'...yeah, right!) but also potentially actively damaging, psychologically.


What happens any time that rigid control slips and you are told that now you will descend into the hell of Maya and LOSE YOUR Golden Age INHERITANCE?? and all the afterlife riches you have been so assiduously building up? Enough for any card-carrying BK to have the wind well & truly put up them ... but then you cannot acknowledge that fear can you lol.


IMO, facing reality and the truth of whatever your thoughts/feelings are but without being caught up in them ... that observing & acknowledging that you were talking about Paul, is the only healthy way to go ;).
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paulkershaw

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Post29 May 2007

If there's sumting I've learnt since leaving Gyan: Take everything with a 'pinch of salt' and try to remember that its my hand that went into the salt jar in the first place and my decision where to throw the salt.

Thanx for sharing Zhuk. Its nice to know so many of us are on a deeper path than when we were, well you know, ummmmm supposed to be ... (!).
~p~
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pilatus

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Post29 May 2007

Hello in the night,
paulkershaw wrote:My experience is that the BK knowledge doesn't in fact change old habits at all. It just slides on top of them and then overrides them for a while. This could be why we sometimes 'battle' so much whilst in Gyan.

As long as one 'keeps studying' then one will keep these old issues and habits under control but they will always be lying there just beneath the surface, waiting to emerge and surprise one again. Study can mean many things I suppose.

Real change comes when one is able to allow these old habits to come up to the surface and then acknowledge them as ones 'shadow side' and then make a determined choice as to which side one will work with, without letting the results get the better of one.

I couldn't agree more - the key question is which of those old "habits" are bad for you/ negative and which are old values/virtues which the BK knowledge has confused/partially overwritten. It's particularly important to take some time to figure this out when it feels like "battle".

Is it the new or the old which is (partially) wrong? Or, as a wise man (non-BK) from Florida taught me after I'd just come back from my 1st and only BapDada encounter, do you simply need to take time and integrate the various inputs/experiences?

Best wishes
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in the night

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Post30 May 2007

Hi you all,

Thanks for your posts. I think I understand where you're coming from. Once, a wise mexican therapist asked me if I knew what the secret to a joyful life was. (I was already an ex-BK and so of course I knew.. :?). Well, she went-on to say, "... it's when your head, heart and desires (pointing at my genitals), all agree to the same thing".

This is something that is not discussed in BK life. The head rules in BK practise and just during very sweet and collective moments of meditation, we manage to feel whole to the ideal of living a pure life. Its so sweet that we confuse the goal for the path.

I believe mainly in being genuine. And, of course, I'd love to be a deity in a perfect surroundings but we must start from scratch, from where we are and from who we truly are. Nothing wrong with day dreaming. Just as long as it's only that.

Thanks for allowing me the despair ... love you,

in the night
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paulkershaw

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Post30 May 2007

in the night wrote: I believe mainly in being genuine.

Now we're taking things to the crux of the heart. It sums up so much of what most people are posting about in so many ways. But how can one be genuine when one has no clue as to who one is?

I suppose it would depend on who we asked this question of ... If we asked a BK it would give them opportunity to share Lesson 1 of the 7 Day course (You are a soul...) and so the process and culture could start all over again ... ho hum ...

Its a perceptions and the need to fill that perception that strikes a chord within. And so we then try and belong to the need of that perception. This is not being genuine, but rather its filling a void. So 'In the Night' has helped us with the inspiration to be 'genuine'.
~~~~
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in the night

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Post30 May 2007

... Deep thinking there, paulkershaw. Maybe its worth to start a new topic on "being genuine".

In my own experience, I only feel true to myself when I am aware and in sympathy with my own actions and doings (whether positive or negative). Free to express myself as I wish ... just acknowliging the price of my actions. BK knowledge teaches to be genuine if we look beyond the limited. So many times "Murlis" state that knowledge is the weapon to destroy "Maya" (illusion).

If I know that simply, "I don't know something"; then I will stay quiet, still and protected. And if I manage that, then I will be able to see through. The process is slow but takes and exponentially growing speed in my experience.

(One thing I have been realising lately; having the last word gives us power - allowing the other to have the last word gives us blessings). JUST A THOUGHT!! 8).
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zhuk

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Post30 May 2007

Well said paul. Filling a void indeed ... I guess that was truly so in my case. When you're told this belief system will supply ALL the answers you've always wanted ... so you will never have to feel those troublesome, so-called "negative", human emotions again ... well, that's incredibly tempting. But maybe ... just maybe ... those emotions are all part of being human.
in the night wrote:I believe mainly in being genuine. And, of course, I'd love to be a deity in a perfect surroundings but we must start from scratch, from where we are and from who we truly are. Nothing wrong with day dreaming. Just as long as it's only that. Thanks for allowing me the despair ...

Yes, that's facing reality AS IT IS. I really wouldn't call it despair ... rather I would say that in fact letting go of the fantastical daydream allows us to examine our own minds, and be FULLY responsible for whatever passes through there, but without that constant judging the "quality" of that thought, that feeling etc and therefore needing to "churn" them away via the doctrine. I call that FREEDOM ;).

Of course, from a BK point of view, where you are conditioned to expect future royal status & all the Golden Age benefits to come while "purifying" yourself (but only if you toe the rigid cognitive line), this recognition of reality & the truth of what you feel and think deep inside would provoke deep despair :roll:.
in the night wrote:In my own experience I only feel true to my-self when Iam aware and in simpathy with my own actions and doings (whether positive or negative). Free to express myself as I wish.. just acknowliging the price of my actions.

Beautifully put :D. Awareness, acknowledgement, without fearing your own thoughts/feelings, yet taking responsibility for same.

A goal to work towards ;) ... however far I am from that at the moment, *cough* lol.
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paulkershaw

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Post30 May 2007

zhuk wrote:But maybe ... just maybe ... those emotions are all part of being human.
Thanks for allowing me the despair ... Yes, that's facing reality AS IT IS.

Whaaaaaa! That's its, huh? I think this has been discussed before in the forum under various posts but its great to remind ourselves as to what we want to be. Just human. With all that it brings too. I can remember being afraid of my feelings and not being able to handle them.

Nowadays, I seem to be able to handle emotion far better. Even if I am just plain ole angry at times, and that's OK by me. Being genuine (which is what this post is about) is also allowing the swings of moods to happen but still having enough sense and capability to change the bad into good and not just ignoring same as if they're not real (illusion). As humans we all have a duality of capability and as to what/which rules is up to one-self - understanding of course that many people don't feel they have a day to day to choice, hence the need for some spiritual recognition of themselves.
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proy

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Re: Simplicity

Post31 May 2007

in the night wrote:when the benefits of meditation started wearing off, then the conflict started for me.

Me too. I learned on this forum that they call it the end of the Honeymoon Period. Good to read your posts. I have been away for a few weeks, but I will be reading every day again now.
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alladin

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Post01 Jun 2007

This topic that started with such an unpretentious title, is becoming very interesting, thanks to the contributors. Some powerful and spontaneous experiences I had with a friend, awakened in me some interest in reading a little bit about Tantra, and I am sure this will be a topic I will explore more. So the lines In the night wrote about the Mexican healer sharing his secret to joy in life: head heart and desires agreeing, resonate. And explain why BKs often feel no joy, but a lot of neurosis and schizophrenia. Yes, the head only rules, for BKs. The other 2 are "inferior" energies and chakras. What does Baba mean when he says, make your subjects cooperate? If there's a constant internal battle where sexual and heart energy are oppressed, how can the poor human have peace?

One of the typical accusations BKs get from outsiders, lokiks, is about wanting to split humans in body and mind conscious beings, assessing total supremacy of the mind and denying the role of the body, or dismissing it as a possible vehicle of anything positive ( except for teaching courses or karma Yoga!!). I will eventually post more on this, on the sex and gender topic, and sex abuse.

But just to show my appreciation to what has been written in here, let me tell you that all that repression business the BK put on us, never convinced me, nor did me any good. I tried for a short while, did not work. And I noticed that those who used in their life repression and pretence as a method, either became bossy and bitter with self and others, or left Baba and Gyan. As a young BK, I was savouring the privilege of not being on the stage, on the gaddhi, because I thought it must be very uncomfortable and embarassing to change your clothes, transform sanskars whilst in front of everyone, in the role of teachers. Often pretending to be already perfect or more perfect than others.

Better play with costumes back stage, more fun. Preparation was going on all the time, but more incognito. Paul, when you talk about acknowledging our shadows, it's true. Baba's method I understand is "burning the roots of old sanskars through tapassya". This is a very esoteric method but not always easy to implement and if we deny and suppress our defects, what material do we give Baba for "burning"? So, whether he's laundryman, or surgeon, he requires honesty from us, our patience and mercy for the self. So this perfectionism and stress, who instigated it and how did it became fundamental? SS?

I did appreciate the possibility to master my self and my moods, in the sense of observing myself and deciding to discard negative thoughts, so I can always be happy. Self control, I think is different from repression or pretending to be angels or despising ourselves when we aren't or other people for being less pure and perfect. I don’t think it has to be a rigid control, rather loving the self and being alert to where a thought comes from, where is it leading me, and if I want to feel good and make those around me feel good too, act accordingly! And this has to do with my well being NOW, not with the status I may or maynot receive in Golden Age! (Zhuk was mentioning this mirage/reward of Golden Age that may turn into a threat in case we "fail, or misbehave"). How else can I discriminate a good or bad thought or value, if not against my happiness? Easiest standard is this, and what makes me happy is: respecting my conscience, my true self. Thinking and doing something that IS ME. Being with people and situations that are in tune with ME. And often the BK were not the case!! Neither I belong to tamo people or situ.

This is why many ex-BKs feel lonely and confused, "I don’t belong here nor there!". About what the Florida wise man Pilatus spoke with: definitely as BKs we were not allowed to integrate anything or left the freedom to sort it out for ourselves. Very rigid standards indeed, coming from "this is the only God, only Truth, only Knoweledge, only elevated community" arrogance. If we are "here", it’s because we did not find all answers in BK organization, and want to know more. Because it did not work, something was missing. And better to look for it, rather than “leaving Gyan and Baba” altogether.

As Joel put it, in another topic, "this forum is a positive place to express ...", for me it’s good to have the Forum as a lab in which "grinding our own ingredients" and experimenting. So, nothing is simple, but I love the process! And freedom is the right atmosphere to do research in.
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paulkershaw

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Post04 Jun 2007

in the night wrote:... Deep thinking there, paulkershaw. Maybe its worth to start a new topic on "being genuine".

I would say that the big question we all need to answer is not the one if we are being genuine or not but rather 'are we being our authentic self" - theres a big difference 'tween the two. One points to integrity of self and the other perhaps to self-esteem and self-image.

I'll see if I can create some time to start a new thread with some of my current understandings of this and lets see what we can add to it, it may help some struggling forum members and viewers with an alternative viewpoint to work with?

But whilst I work out what to say don't let me stop anyone else from starting this new thread going!
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alladin

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direct link

Post06 Jun 2007

Hi, just few thoughts that came to my mind this morning:

the BK organisation does not encourage independent thinking. They blacklist it as criticism, questioning, doubting ... However, Baba himself said we should judge everything through our intellect. No more blind faith. So, we have permission from the Almighty to do that, and please do not call it immediately "manmat"!

In all religions, mystics, those who did not care about power but loved simple life and had blissful experiences in their DIRECT link with God, were a challenge and persecuted.

I'like to study more what Marxism says about all religions, how clergy uses power to control masses, through fear mainly, and doesn't it happen in the BK? Aren't we threatened all the time that if we leave, this and that'll happpen, and that's why many of us feel that the relationship with God can only be enjoyed whilst belonging to the organisation?
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joel

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Re: direct link

Post06 Jun 2007

alladin wrote:the BK org does not encourage indipendent thinking, they black list it as criticism, questioning, doubting... However Baba himself said we should judge ev thing through our intellect, no more blind faith. [...] In all religions, mystics, those who did not care about power, but loved simple life and had blissfull experiences in their DIRECT link with God, were a challenge and persecuted.

Therefore every "God" that incarnates, no matter how wise that entity, cannot build a spiritual organization that that is immune from the social consequences of human economic and industrial activity. As groups grow, so enters the influence of the attraction of authority, often sought and seized by the best manipulators, the power brokers. Small-r religion. The mystic personal experience exists despite and outside the constraints of Big-R organized religion, the big PR machine, a large group of believers with the doctrine rewritten according to need by a small group at the top.

By prophesizing eternity and the absolute as achievable by humankind, these Gods represent the ideal as reachable through the particular lifestyle and practices they teach. If they were really so wise, they would know their message could hardly persist more than a few generations, and what would persist would be radically altered in form.

Life is a chain of events, each unique, of which nothing whatever absolute can be said. That's the thing about life. There is no incantation, no prescription that will solve all problems.

Regarding a direct link, it strikes me as humorous that having advocated a direct link with God, exemplified by the life of Brahma Baba, the group leaders, in order to be able to exercise their own sacral and economic authority, have to fight hard to prevent members from believing they can get their guidance directly.
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heshe

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Post14 Jul 2007

Good discussion folks. After 20 years, it would seem to me that all that is left is the authentic self. Otherwise, who am i? Plastic or cardboard cut out? :roll:

Authentic self with love for god. There is such beauty in that for me. No human organisations in between 8).

Wow, it took 20 years to get to that point of realisation. Now i can rest my head and awaken my heart. :D
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