How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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paulkershaw

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post23 Feb 2009

is not the thing to do to pose a different question to lead them out of their illusion like, why does he not manifest something useful like

I'd say that this word "illusion" is one of the most important ever posted on this forum. Pre-gyan, many of did not like the illusion of our lives and therefore searched for reality (mixing up reality and truth in the process) and found it for a blissful period of time within the separative teachings of the BKWSU. Then it took a while to admit to oneself that Gyan, as taught in their centres, was also illusionary in nature and eventually we rebelled and left. Some later rather than sooner.

It goes to show that at heart, we are an inclusive-intelligent being and one that is constantly attempting to separate reality (that which is real as in, "hey - get real, dude") from that which we assume to be illusion.

Should not our search be to identify that which is illusionary in our life instead or is that itself an aspect of separatedness? Then no one could fool anyone into believing something that in itself requires us to separate ourself from the rest of society and the world. And we may then begin to understand some of the reasons why the BKWSU continue to perpetuate the illusion which they teach and practice will create another reality on earth.

john morgan

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post23 Feb 2009

Communication is hard to achieve on a forum such as this because our medium of expression is words. What may mean one thing to me may mean something else to you and vice versa. I wonder what the words "Divine Intellect" mean to everyone?

The BK talk about this and sometimes say that in order to truly understand knowledge a person should have a "divine intellect." They also say that study refines a human intellect until one day it realises itself as divine. I'd really like to know what the two words "Divine" and "Intellect" placed side by side mean to you.

It may be that a new thread should be started but as the topic is "how did we fool ourselves ..." whether we truly understand or have understood knowledge seems a reasonable thing to investigate here.
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ex-l

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post23 Feb 2009

john morgan wrote:I wonder what the words "Divine Intellect" mean to everyone.

Conform, unquestioningly, to our way of thinking and seeing the world ... even if we change it.
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paulkershaw

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post23 Feb 2009

john morgan wrote:I wonder what the words "Divine Intellect" mean to everyone.

OK, but what is the Intellect anyway?

I'd say a Divine Intellect is the achievement of being able to use one's intelligence in alignment with one's higher mindset and apply it to one's life in every aspect.

celticgyan

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post24 Feb 2009

One thing that put me off some of The Knowledge (not all of it by any means) was the fact that I was kept being told that there could only be one Baba and hence one drama. Therefore the possibility of life existing elsewhere would be zero! Now it's a mega sized Galaxy we live in and with zillions of other Galaxies as well in terms of probability could not be right. Then I had the problem that if there was one Baba and several cycles going on (or millions even), what stage were they at relative to us! Was their Golden Age to be the same as ours - in sync!

Then on top of that we have the multiverse - an infinity of other Universes using the same space as ours. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Of course, the multiverse is only a theory but has to be true at the quantum level at least.

If you put an apple on a table in a room with all the curtains closed, then you look away - what happens to the apple? Is it still on the table when nobody is looking?

C.
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paulkershaw

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post24 Feb 2009

Well, its no wonder you're an ex-BK Celticgyan. You ask far too many questions of the wrong kind. No wonder they couldn't tame you. :| Anyone for some toli?
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joel

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post24 Feb 2009

celticgyan wrote:If you put an apple on a table in a room with all the curtains closed, then you look away - what happens to the apple? Is it still on the table when nobody is looking?

When you look back and see that it is no longer there, was it ever really there to begin with??
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john

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post23 Apr 2009

celticgyan wrote:Brahma Baba was conscience and not in trance. He apparently had to hear the Murli.

Do you mean he heard the Murli then spoke it, or that he heard it at the same time that Shiva was speaking it?

meme

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post22 Jul 2009

Fooling ourselves into believing is a great turn of phrase. I spent time with a few intelligent BKs (intelligence used as a defining attribute, not a compliment) and they tried really hard. Trying to reconcile 5,000 years, trying to talk away dinosaurs and fossils. Some of those intelligent BKs were also deeply troubled, and started to bail faster, rather than look for the hole in their reasoning.

We believe rationally and we fool ourselves emotionally.

There is a wonderful model of the human brain, devised by Paul Maclean that I think helps explain this seeming paradox of why smart people do dumb things. It is called the triune brain and I recommend you invest a little time to learn about it as a way of explaining much of the paradox that is BK Raja Yoga (and most other non-rational philosophies).

Maclean says we have three brains in our skull; the primitive repitilian brain (survival, reproduction, instinct), the mammalian brain (feelings, emotions) and the human brain (abstract thought, intellect, rationality). He purports that these do not operate in a heirarchy, rather they are constantly working as a not always comfortable team. You can view more about the triune brain from a reasonable source - what appears to be undergraduate notes on the brain from Mcgill University in Canada.

THE EVOLUTIONARY LAYERS OF THE HUMAN BRAIN.

For the thorough, go to thebrain.mcgill.ca and you can make your own judgement of the site. It appears to be very well based on the philosophy of scientific method.

So when the urge for comfort is really strong, our mammalian brain can overule the "higher" urge for rationality and cogency. That's how it was for me. The BKs provided an emotional haven for me at time I needed it. I don't believe we can easily disrupt this trinity as it has served us well for the last 250,000 years. Note, I say 250,000 years. I am a believer in evolution and wish it was taught with the same rigour as other belief systems such as mathematics and physics ...
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lokila

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post22 Jul 2009

Hi meme,

Welcome! It's good to see how you managed your way to disentangle the concepts of the BKWSU and found another point of view which makes far more sense to you.

When I left the BK for the second time I started to explore a bit too in reading about evolution, the discovery of the cosmos, the wonders of life deep beneath the see level and so on. What I found were innumerable treasures of beauty in so many things I did not knew before. Since within the BK we were not encouraged to look for anything else, not even read something else but Murli's it seemed for a long time there was no beauty or truth in anything else.

It stroke me that in fact there was so much beauty in the world around. I just needed to take a look. Within the BK I learned to overlook it all and in stead try to discover a soulworld and a Subtle Region and imagine a golden world. Just ignoring there is still so much to discover in the here and now.

The three-brain theory sounds as something I have been experiencing a lot. Some emotional driven forces like wanting to belong to a family or group seem to come from a different place than the rational functioning brain. If there are a strong survival instincts or strong emotional needs, they can overrule everything else. So the rational brain tries to put everything together like a jig saw, even if you know it is not true the world renews every 5000 years, just because of your strong emotions you use all the cleverness you have to make it look right.

I guess you might like the video "a stroke of insight" of neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor: Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight.

I wrote something about it in another topic: The Beautiful side of Evil.

I will take a look at the website you recommend. And by the way: interesting name (I read the piece at wikipedia about it)
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alladin

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post22 Jul 2009

Yes, interesting stuff, I 'll make time to read it.
So the rational brain tries to put everything together like a jig saw, even if you know it is not true the world renews every 5000 years, just because of your strong emotions you use all the cleverness you have to make it look right.

Can anybody come up with a suggestion or explanation on why do BKs try their best to swallow things who don't square? We used to go lenghts and even disrespect our own ethics and culture, to do that!!

Recalling my experience, just brainstorming:

1: I was, for different reasons in my life, ready to accept their system, answers, God and community
2: Many things resonated and coincidences and " Avyakt" experiences convinced me further that this was the truth, I had met God, etc ... (honeymoon phase, when the irrational is accepted as real and logical)
3: Gradually behaviours of sisters-in-charge, Seniors, ill treatment I received from them or abuses I witnessed they committed on others, injustices, etc ..., created negative emotions and touched my heart as deeply as the positive initial things did. Eventually, I came back to my senses (MY third eye opened, not the one clouded and conditioned by the BK!!). I was no longer available to bear and justify the tyranny and madness that prevail in such sect.

Maybe the spook/s touches our emotions in such a way that we open up, and we get swallowed by the alligator! Maybe the spook is a positive being, but not Almighty enough to stop vicious people to hijack the organization and mislead it. The explanation in any case is ,that Baba will straighten things up and make sure that we benefit even from ugly situations and people. The meek willl inherit paradise - as usual!!

In the meantime, put up with it a be a good, silent zombie. Or have I misunderstood the teachings?
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lokila

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post22 Jul 2009

Point 1: Fully agree. Hard to find out, still many years later I am trying to find out exactly why I was so happy to embrace everything the BK offered to me. It requires a deep look inside to find emotional gaps, unprocessed past, unfulfilled desires, hopes, dreams ...

Point 2: Still trying to find out where these experiences came from. Was it imagination, wishful thinking or was it an influence beyond my control, a spook?

Point 3: That is exactly what happens. Having reached this point one needs to make a decision: do I stay or do I leave? For those having cut off all relationships with friends and family, handed over their money and property, never picked up a study and without any source of income, it can be just too much to handle. They are at the point of no return. We somehow managed to make the decision to get out and open our eyes widely, waking up from a bad dream wondering what actually happened ...

Sorry I do not have a solid explanation, but who has? I just enjoy the ride of exploring in stead of looking for The Truth or The Answers (again!). You did not misunderstood the teachings at all, it seems to me that you know exactly what you are talking about from your own experience. Is it you own experience? If not you must be extremely emphatic. Just wondering because of the label 'friends and family of'.
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alladin

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post22 Jul 2009

You did not misunderstood the teachings at all, it seems to me that you know exactly what you are talking about from your own experience. Is it you own experience? If not you must be extremely emphatic. Just wondering because of the label 'friends and family of'.

Yes, like Rita Marley sang "Who feels knows it" ...

Thanks for pointing out, and giving me the chance to clarify will take care of this label business. It needs updating. When I registered, approx one and a half year ago, I felt that what kept me still connected with the BKWSO were the good friends I still have in there.

I do not like any label, and years ago, when Seniors told me that innocent activities like sports I was practising made me into a non-BK :sad:, I told myself that possibly I was a BK and they were not and they had no right to judge me!! Anyway, to make the story simple, let's say that I am a questioning or even ex-BK. I have been a pukka BK, from their point of view, and I still lead a life style that is not in total contrast with Raja Yoga.
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lokila

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post23 Jul 2009

alladin wrote:I felt that what kept me still connected with the BKWSO were the good friends I still have in there.

Now this is a refreshing way of interpreting the 'friends and family of' label! Maybe I should use it too :D
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ex-l

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post27 Jul 2009

The Clash, "Should I stay or should I go?" with a rather sweet Cary Grant video.

I don't think we we fooled ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris. We WERE fooled. They did not tell us the truth. They withheld sufficient information for us to make an informed decision about the beliefs and leadership. Is that "my fault"?

So the question becomes, how did we fool ourselves into staying with the Brahma Kumaris once it all started to become clear?

This again I do not believe is entirely our own responsibility. Human beings are not omniscient, all enlightened and all powerful. We are constantly subject to those more "powerful" and "skillful" than us, and sub-conscious thoughts, emotions and behavior that we are largely unaware of. This idea that "we are all entirely responsible for 'everything' that happens to us" is ridiculously insane and hyberbolic.

What we need to be aware of is our human tendency to "stuckness", and sticking to things even beyond the point that they do not serve us, harm us and the world around us, or are clearly bonkers.

The Clash almost wrote:Dada, you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say that you are mine
I'll be here 'til the end of time
So you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?

It's always tease, tease, tease
You're happy when I am on my knees
One day is fine and next it's black
So if you want me off your back
Well, come on and let me know
Should I stay or should I go?

Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go, there will be trouble
And if I stay, it will be double
So come on and let me know

This indecision's bugging me
If you don't want me, set me free
Exactly whom I am supposed to be
Don't you know which clothes even fit me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?

Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay, it will be double
So ya gotta let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?

Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay, it will be double
So ya gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
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