When to tell a friend to wake up

I have trawled this site for information for a while now. Some of what I learned has surprised me, some has not. I was not aware of the full BK belief system. I had had the pieces put to me over many years but never managed to put it all together. A very good friend of mine is a BK. And, from what I've read on this website, quite an easy going BK. I believe that I was targeted as having potential to be a follower. In my youth, I mistook spiritualism for philosophy and I engaged in a few conversations, none of which made sense to me. I managed to reason my way through it and, now, my rational mind is suitably able to easily dismiss strong assertions about; onions, garlic, the age of the Earth, evolution etc.

I saw past the religious mumbo-jumbo and the end of the world stories that have been imminent for the last twenty years because, basically, he is a really good guy and we share interests in all the good stuff in life; cinema, computer games, football and discussion/debate. But, recently, I have been concerned about a few things. The talk is getting more dogmatic. The end of the world is really close now. He has told me that to think things through rationally just gets in the way, I should use my gut instinct - which I interpreted as meaning that whatever I should do I should stop thinking. Recently, we had a conversation along the lines of 'what would eternity look like?' Which is just absurd.

This re-enforcement of opinion has coincided with him becoming more active because he has introduced another friend, who has gone through their brain washing initiation, and has had a trip to India to the 'university' to have their independence removed. Suddenly, I find myself in a bit of a conundrum. I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. Quite often I bite my tongue when he makes a belief re-enforcing statement such as, 'how old is this body now?' But I feel now, that by introducing someone else to the 'university', it is starting to affect other people. I am also wary of the fact that I was identified as a young teenager and am worried that this may happen again. Especially with the whole vilification of close family thing.

At what point do I say something to him? I feel I want to say that what he has done to his friend is wrong and that if he is going to commit to farm for potential followers that I will have to do something. I still feel that he may hold out hope that I can be salvaged but if I have this conversation his attitude could change towards me. I am sure if I did say something he would turn it into some sort of proof that the end of the world is nigh, people are choosing their sides ready for the final solution.

Congratulations for quite a fantastic first post. You have basically nailed it on the head ... the situation that most good individuals find themselves in when their friend or family member is sucked into the Brahma Kumaris.

I am not going to answer here. I would like to leave it to others to say something. I just wanted to applaud you for your spirituality and your level of consciousness because it is already higher than more Brahma Kumari adherents! Your sincerity and concern, not just for your friend but also society, shines through; as does the clarity of your vision regards what is going on.

You have got it as "absolutely right" as anyone could ... without having gone through the mill of x years inside.

Hi berkley,

Generally BKs tend to think along the lines of "it's their karma" which gives them an excuse to not take responsibility of action or care.

I, personally, believe that being a true friend means being honest, speaking your mind and letting the chips fall where they may. My best friends trust me because they know that I will always tell them the truth. This is how I measure true friends. If my friends want to be lied to, then they have to find another friend.

So, when it comes to BK friends, I simply tell them the truth and back it up with facts. There are enough facts on this website to support anything you might want to share with your friend. When I first left the organisation I was much more emotional, so people thought that I was expressing a personal vendetta. But a bit of time has passed and now my words are much cleaner, clearer and to the point. To really get the message across, you must be sure of yourself. As ex-l said, you are already on the right path, but if you wish to help your friend, be prepared with supporting facts so he doesn't feel attacked.

Good luck .

Thanks for the replies guys. I am under no illusion that when I do speak to him about it, I will need to have all the facts at hand and understand them. It seems over past conversations that there is no one critical point of attack to shatter the illusion. I would have thought the whole number of times the world should have ended by now should have put the information he is receiving into serious doubt. After all, a divine being that is outsmarted by a calendar has credibility issues. Maybe he's not aware but he has been a BK for over twenty years now, I am sure he would know.

p.s. you guys are doing a really good job, I actually feel much more comfortable understanding what he really believes.

Maybe he's not aware but he has been a BK for over twenty years now, I am sure he would know.

I did not, personally, invest 20 years of my life (thank goodness!) but I think it just gets harder and harder to get out the longer you stay in. There are people on this forum who did invest this amount of time, and can probably give you better feedback, but from what I have seen, it just gets so much harder to get out when you've allowed yourself to be deluded for that much longer.

Basically, your friend would have to admit to himself that he's been fooled for 20 years, which is a big chunk of his life. That in itself is a huge shock. "Knowing" in the BK organisation has little to do with the truth and everything to do with showing obedience and so-called humility towards the leaders and the disembodied entities, mainly Brahma Baba.

In truth, the "mental programming" is so limited and simple, its just repeated 1,000s and 1,000s of times until it is accepted as one personal core.

As an ex-, it is possible to boot that mindset up up like a mini-computer within a computer and come up with all the typical answers he will give you, e.g. "Baba has never given a specific date for Destruction". Typical to BKWSU, this is both true and false, and this duplicit defence is what you will have to wade your way through. These are called "yuktis", translated as 'methods'. Method to defend ... defray ... distract ... seduce .. etc.

"Baba has never given a specific date for Destruction" IS a true statement ... IF you consider it to be "3rd March 1976". He has not.

However, he HAS and they have predicted numerous SPECIFIC occasions or years, e.g. WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s ([i[they used to teach 50 years for Destruction, 50 years for Creation in the early 80s ... that was then changed to 60 years[/i]), Year 200 and so on.

Ditto, even if you pursue that avenue, they have other prepared "yuktis" to stop you. "Baba says, don't be date conscious" (that is remember Baba, not the End of the World ... "Baba say, be every ready". To be honest, they are as slippery as quicksilver and, to me, this has become their primary values or character. They are not "straight", like rayoflight says, at all.

A few individual BKs are pure, simple and straight ... the majority, especially of the middle management or long-terms, are not. They have become, and have to become, VERY slippery indeed to survive. Defend ... defray ... distract ... seduce ...

Believing what they really do believe, for me, every occasion has them like being 'double agents' hiding their true beliefs, using their words deceptively, being "sugar in the milk" as the Sindis say. They have an external self which is very polite, clean, respectful etc ... and then an internal self which is watching, calculating, skillfully guiding or manipulating.

Even in one's quiet moments in conversation, as a BK, one is taught to do nothing but disappear off into meditation and "send vibrations" at the other people! Please, if I am wrong, someone else correct me.

Yes, I think you have an ethical responsibility to warn others in society about them and your friend in particular. What about the suicides ... what the covering up of child abuses ... what about the financial abuses ... what about the re-written histories and failed predictions of Destruction ... there has to come a point of critical mass where it starts to break through his defence mechanisms.

But ... it is a big ego trip and is he ready to give that ego trip and just be an failed, ordinary person who spent their life in a crazy cult? That is the difficult one.

Can I ask, how far in is he?

I mean, does he get up at 4 am every day ... does he go to class every day ... is he follow the rules as are as food and sex goes on ... does he live in a center or "Brother's house"? It may be that he is not a real BK at all and just enjoying the pose and the air of superiority it gives one ... the ability to play around with other people's minds.

Personally, what turned me off was all the self-advertising and VIP chasing. I could not see Janki etc as being "enlightened", or even benevolent at all. I just see her as a Sindi social climber, getting back the social status she lost by joining the Brahma Kumaris, and a bit of a spiritual trickster really (which is not all a bad thing). Her intellect never struck me as being very wonderful at all. But if social-climbing and sucking up to VIPs turns you on, then I can see the pay off for anyone joining the BKWSU. They can use the BKWSU to get to places they would never do so individually and be associated to the "rich, famous, powerful" by the proxt of being associated to Dadi Janki, the BKWSU, the UN and so on.

It does give a sense of self-importance which to individuals with a low self-esteem has to be attractive ... may be even beneficial. I don't know.

Tell us more about where your friend is, and see what others think ... I would not wish a term inside the BKs upon anyone now, any more than I would wish anyone a term in jail.

Hi Berkley!

If your friend has been there 20 years, he most likely does not know that the Baba of the BKs has been wrong a few times in his predictions about Destruction because that information is not given to the adherents.

I had been knowing the BKs since 1983 and joined fully in 1987 but it is only when I joined this Forum that I found out about it

Majority of those who run Centers and teach the courses etc, would not know either, and thus they are not really lying if they say that Baba never gave a date for Destruction; but the higher management and those who were there before 1976 would have known.

If you have not seen them yet have a look at the original cycle.jpg and the smaller tree2.jpg in the Library. They are posters from the late 40's that majority of BKs have never seen.

They both mention "... the present final International Atomic War, the invention of SCIENCE, as well as numerous Natural Calamities such as famines, fires, floods, earthquakes, storms, diseases, etc., shall, within a year or so, become the cause of merging innumerable Kali-Yugi eastern and Western irreligions or dynasties into Infinite Divine Light like Kalpa ago." This is classic BK vocabulary and clearly indicates that what the BKs call "Destruction" was expected within a year or so.

There is no date visible on the "smaller tree" but if you enlarge the "original cycle" enough to read the small fine print at the bottom left of the image, you can see that it is dated 1949 and appeared in the Sind Observer Press, Karachi.

They also evidence that there was no trace of the existence of God Shiva in the BK litterature up to around 1950, which contradicts the official version given by the organization.

I would think that these images are good material to confront your friend with, if you like, and I would be curious to know about his reaction to them.

bkti-pit,

With all due respect, I am a little confused, it says you're BK but your posts suggest you may be ex-BK?

I would think that these images are good material to confront your friend with, if you like, and I would be curious to know about his reaction to them.

Good idea.

Here are the links to some high quality copies to print off:

The Cycle
The Tree

From: the Library

You could try that. Be specific to ask him why "there was no mention of God Shiva until after 1950" and "why does 'Adi Dev' (their "official" biography/history) does not mention all this"?

It might make him have to stop and start asking questions. In particularly, you can ask the ethical questions, "why did the leadership hide all of this" and what else are they hiding even now"?. I, too, would be interested in his response. Allow him time to answer or encourage him to go to his center-in-charge and ask them. Putting something physical in his hands just might do it.

The funny thing is, even if one was fully faithful to the BKWSU, these poster should still have to be of interest.

How can an Age of Truth be built on lies?

Hi, Berkeley and welcome to this Forum!

As I was reading your posts about the relationship between you and your BK friend, (BTW, BKs are not allowed to have friends, and they should only have superficial love for human souls, turn a cold shoulder on animals and nature in general), I tried to put myself in your friend's shoes, remembering that, once you belong to the sect, your vision shifts , and any other person, becomes a mere object of your proselytism. Their aim is converting people to their religion. Supposedly to spread the news and bring joy into their lives, but more than anything to get numbers, create an army of volunteers, supporters who can offer funds, skills ,facilities, visibility, credibility for free.

You follow a myriad of disciplines that condition you and you have the feeling of walking on eggs, of constantly been watched. They shame you and instill in you loads of guilty complexes, superiority and inferiority complexes. I believe they make you become dysfunctional. If you are a powerful, free spirit, you may escape partially, or water down the effect, if you are, in their terms, disobedient to some extent.

A chore issue is "detachment". I don't know if you and your friend have ever discussed the meaning/ possible benefits of this practise. I am convinced that being over involved or obsessed with people, dramatizing situations, leads to unhappiness and if we can maintain the "stage of detached observer", we can accomplish more, become more perceptive, cool minded, light, etc ...

I also believe that we should love all beings, have a benevolent attitude and good wishes for all, and do not create a small world where we love one or 2 and exclude or hate the rest.

BKs twist this ancient, universal wisdom, the Buddhist teaching of unlimited , unconditional love and compassion, into an excuse for becoming cold, cynical, dry and self-centered, selfish, uncaring, "anyway, it's his karma, his part in the Drama ... Baba will take care".

If asked whether love or law should weigh more on the scale, they will probably say the recipe should be, "love, in abundance, and law to taste". Their Baba speaks a lot about being sweet and not bossy, yielding, but all of us know that the tough reality is totally the opposite, authoritarianism and being career minded, are rewarded by SS.

The BKs also, see everyone else as "Shudra", they are very judgmental, more than loving, they despise all.

There are some exceptions as well as cases worse than others, so I don't know the heart of your friend, neither what kind of people run the centre he attends, because this colors and influence the atmosphere and students. Some teachers are more frustrated and fundamentalists than others.

It is possible to learn some good things in the BKWSU, and discard the rest, but it is hard work, and at the end of the day, the sieve is full of useless lumps and rocks.

alladin,

Thank you for writing this message. Although life goes on for me, I often think of my friends who are still deeply caught up in the BK sham. I often feel helpless and sometimes I think there's not much we can do about it. But rereading the posts reminds me that the BKWSO is a sect and some people cannot get out very easily. I just want to go on with my life, but this forum also reminds me that I am not completely free when I know that some people that I care about are still trapped.

For berkeley's friend, jannisder's friend, and all the others who are watching our friends still being used, I extend a prayer of hope that soon they will be freed.

Hi Berkely,

The new emphasis on Destruction is probably based on the 2012 end of The Cycle prediction. So many religions have a prediction of an end of world scenario. When we observe the capacity of human beings for destruction of the planet, and violence towards other humans and animals, it is easy to see how it is accepted as a likely scenario.

And why we accepted that particular teaching. But it is one thing to perhaps accept it as a terrible inevitability, quite another TO WANT IT ... also to have notions that you are going to bring comfort to millions as they writhe in agony. Especially from a group of people who have not a clue how to comfort a person going through suffering on front of their eyes. In fact, in my experience, a lot of them were very uncomfortable around distress of any kind.

Why your friend is taking more notice now, is difficult to fathom. perhaps it is doing the rounds in that closed world, and such extraordinary bull goes around it. Or maybe you "friend" is at some sort of a crisis in himself. I put the friend word in quotes because of my personal experience. Like others on the forum, I took my spirituality as the most important thing in my life (I still do but am no longer much interested in a spiritual path). But at that time I was very serious about embracing it fully and would not have had any outside friends, would not have wanted them (dirty impure persons). I also made a lot of effort to detach from my previous friends and family. Some of these attitudes I took on are shameful and I hurt good people.

So I do not really get the BKs like also Jannisders friend. It is probably more sensible to have outside friends and not throw oneself in so deeply, but it also has a strong whiff of insincerity. They are withholding themselves from these 'lokik' friends, because they are so 'pure' etc. At the same time, they are taking comfort from the friendship while still being able to float around in a white superiority complex. I have more respect for the ones who go in too deep, foolish as it might be, at least it is deeply sincere.

At the end of the day, if there is a God to answer to, I do not expect to be judged on whether I am good at following certain disciplines. In fact, I am far too rebellious and wild for it ever to have worked. But it is one of the most respected and rewarded qualities in the BK world. I saw people in the BK world who shone with love and compassion and were not accepted because they were not getting up at 4am and sucking up to the Seniors. At the same time, petty minded, spiteful ones fitted in wonderfully well. My point here is that whether there is huge changes on the earth or not, what I saw in the BK world, all were not the highest souls, comforters of the suffering, inheritors of the Golden Age. Ultimately we will each answer for ourselves.

I was thinking about this thread quite profoundly today. The whole theme around friends gets so messed up in the BK world and yet here we are discussing how much we care about our long lost (and still lost) but dearly loved BK friends. I got in the car and this song was on the radio as a commemoration for the 40th anniversary of Woodstock 69'. I felt it was appropriate and would like to dedicate it to the BK friends we wish well. Watching Joe Cocker perform is a cathartic experience, anti-BKWSO and pro-sweat. Enjoy .

Man, there have been a lot of replies here. Thanks very much guys.

ex-l:

I think there has been a waxing and waning of his involvement. From what I read, he was a pretty strict BK to start with, rising early, only preparing his own food. He told me how he was separated from his parents and family, and that he did not really care about them. They were only the people he happened to grow up with. He was always telling me how wonderful the people he was associated with were. He even told me that they were like a special consultant to the UN. I remember the first time he told me that the world was going to end, I was quite shocked. He told me the info had come from a special source, and that when it happened he was going to go to India and help out in some village. He also told me that he was thinking of moving to Cambridge for a year or so.

Skip forward a few years and he is running a football team, something that he has become far too attached to for a BK by the sounds of things. He eats at places like Subway (where he can watch them prepare his food) and Sainsbury's. He is very careful to make sure there is no onion or garlic in his food. I have even heard him swear a few times. He even goes to family get togethers and seems a lot closer to his parents. This may have led to a bit of a crisis in him. But I get the feeling he has dealt with that by getting his friend involved (female friend) who had always wanted a full on relationship with him but he couldn't because obviously he was celibate. Now they are both celibate!

Since then he has become much more involved, trips every weekend and events. Recently he went abroad and spent some time at what I assume is a retreat (or is it an indoctrination centre?) They have offered him to go back on a sort of commune basis, he offers them work and they give him board and accomodation etc and he is seriously considered this.

It's difficult because I don't want to lose my friend but I get the feeling that when I say what I've got to say it may happen.

With all due respect, I am a little confused, it says you're BK but your posts suggest you may be ex-BK?

In short, I can say that I am in the process of re-evaluating my beliefs and my relationship with the BK world. I already distanced myself some, physically and mentaly, but do not know how far or where I will end up.

I am in no hurry to do so. It is all happening very smoothly. Nothing traumatic about it for me. More like a natural growth process. Very enjoyable.

"Independent, free thinking BK" might be the best way to describe where I stand at this point.