Who declared that Shiva has gone back to Paramdham

For me it is very different from everything. e.g. science has very different approach. It tries to come to know things from a point of view of being ignorant. Here this knowledge comes form an authority who claims himself to be knowledgeful, without study. This is new.

It is not new actually. There have been loads of channelled entities speaking through mediums all claiming such things. Huge, vast theologies ... complex pictures of the future and past ... every one from Seth to L. Ron Hubbard has their own story. Some even going into greater depth about intrinsic stuff like KARMA which Shiva skates over in a grunt or two. I still want to know how and where karma works.

We have no way of knowing how, or what or where these spirits are. Like you said before, even if this Knowledge is all one big lie, you want to be part of it, I agree. Shiva is a really interesting spook or spooks. But we still wont know if it was lying or not until it is all over. What he asks us to do in gamble our life on faith in him. What we can tell is his nature from his manifestation. Not The Knowledge - which is ultimately very thin and meaningless - but the organizations and the way they work. The "like for like" it attracts to itself. What I see mostly with the public face of the BKs and Seniors is dishonesty and the acquisition of power and wealth, I am afraid to say. More and more. Virendra Dev Dixit/PBK, I cant say yet but a dogmatic approach is not the best advertisement.

Strange thing is, I have never heard of Lekhraj Kirpalani or Virendra Dev Dixit relate, with authority, the stories of their 83 birth. Surely, if they were self-realised they would be able to. I have heard the odd fantasy from particular BKs about one life or another so why not the complete picture? Of course, I expect another defensive answer towards that too ...

And "all science is based on ignorance" ... tut-tut ... there will be no nuclear-powered vimanas in the Golden Age for you if you keep talking like that!!

Dear Brother,

We are very used to falsehood, we have met it again and again in life that we have built a guard in ourselves that even when the truth comes we think it is a lie. Would God need advertisement? Advertisement is fooling, presenting something to be something else. That is why it is said 'truth cannot be proven by trying to proove it but is self evident'. That's why it is said those who claim themselves to be God, consider him the devil.

All of these channels are very funny indeed. If you cannot separate them from this, then why are you attracted to this? How can then one find peace and rest? It should be concentrated on one position, that only this is true, nothing else is true, everything else is false. So these books, writers etc. are all human beings. Nothing good has come from them. The world has continued to come down. Now we will see if the world will turn completely upside down.

What is also new is that truth is only one. This is new for me. You cannot find it peace by peace from everywhere, or one and the same truth everywhere. It is one being, one source. And really it has nothing to do with the organisation. God is one, yes, he is revealed through his children but bad children are also His children. He will remain truthful in whatever situation. Children have their own way. An organisation, a family, is not the Father, the child is not the Father. And there are also such children who reach to the child only.

What is truthful will only be stable too, it will not change to fit others, but others will fit it. (you say it dogma).

Ravan gives ten different oppinions through ten different heads. Ram gives only one oppinion through only one head. The example is if in the shop the seller is good he puts a nice price. If you like - buy. No bargain.

We have no way of knowing how, or what or where these spirits are

Of course we can know. This is what The Knowledge is for. And here comes the faith in The Knowledge. Faith is not a bad word. Scientists use faith before they start an experiment. We have faith the grocery will be at the same place as it did yesterday when we go shopping.

And "all science is based on ignorance" ... tut-tut ... there will be no nuclear-powered vimanas in the Golden Age for you if you keep talking like that!!

I mean science studies and investigates, from of point of not knowing - trying to know. And who has been so hard to you on the path of knowledge, that have thought you that they'll be the ones who decide who'll have vimans and not.

This is going to wander a little so if you want to follow the thread of "Shiva and Drama", skip down to the "Imagine for a moment" story.

All of these channels are very funny indeed ... So these books, writers etc. are all human beings. Nothing good has come from them. The world has continued to come down.

Ravan gives ten different oppinions through ten different heads. Ram gives only one opinion through only one head. The example is if in the shop the seller is good he puts a nice price. If you like - buy. No bargain.

Nothing good? Like, democracy, the end of [some] slavery, the emancipation of [some] women, welfare states, growth of literacy, science and medicine, international trade and communications, even a few druggies have been cured by Scientology ... I'd say humanity has done pretty well out of its books and writers. This is where the simple entropy model of the BKs fails. It has not all been down, down, down since 2,500 years ago. Indeed, 2,500 years ago seemed to be all murder, rape, genocide, trickster Gods, land grab and amorality as far as I can see. Can anyone explain to me how life 2,500 years ago was 50% better than now?

And even Ram (which Ram ... Virendra Dev Dixit?) does not always know or give answers. When he does not, how many children are courageous enough or have a strong enough intellect to question him? I don't know Shiva Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit but saw this problem a lot even with Dadis, nevermind BapDada. Individuals would ask questions, the Dadi or Didi would actually answer the question, sometimes it was even clear that they did not understand the question, and then the student would just shut up because they were too embarassed or insecure to pick this up. Who has ever challendged BapDada? Who would even be allowed to!?! There is also that old Bhakti sanskar of not wanting to show disrespect/upset the Guru by questioning them too hard.

We have no way of knowing how, or what or where these spirits are.

Of course we can know. This is what The Knowledge is for. And here comes the faith in The Knowledge. Faith is not a bad word. Scientists use faith before they start an experiment. We have faith the grocery will be at the same place as it did yesterday when we go shopping.

Seth was a spook not a human being. How can we know what Shiva really is? How can we know what any channelled entity is? They take possession of a medium and we can hear what they say and that is all. They have psychic powers over us [or not] and that is it. There could be more than one spirit, how could we tell? How was BapDada tested? Virendra Dev Dixit makes no claims. Again, it comes back to faith. How can we and who has ever tested one item of knowledge in 70 years?

Imagine for a moment,

The Trickster predicts Spring

A wise Trickster knows that Spring is arising and enters into a village where the people are all stupid and forgetful. It is Winter and becoming darker and colder. The villagers think the End of the World is coming. He tells them he is there to bring Springtime. Only a few villagers believe him out of hope and give him somewhere to live, something to eat, keep him warm.

It keeps getting darker and colder and a few believers leave the Trickster complaining but the ones that stay have given so much that they are afraid if they leave or stop feeding the Trickster that they will look even more stupid and out of fear it may get even colder and darker. The Trickster says it is so dark now that he needs to invite some friends to help him fight it and so the faithful villagers start feeding him too.

Soon, eventually, Spring starts to rise. It start getting lighter and warmer again.

Now the villagers that had been housing and feeding the tricksters think that what the Trickster has been saying was therefore true. And he has brought Spring. Spring really is coming. It is becoming lighter. They go telling the other villagers and a few villagers start to come back and give things to the tricksters out of gratitude. So the tricksters starts talking about an even better future to encourage them. A new golden summer! So the faithful villagers go out tell others again. All the time the tricksters have been fed and house for free.

Now, we know that Spring follows Winter naturally. So did the Trickster did. The villagers did not. All the Trickster did was look up a little bit ahead and claim that he was the one that was bringing that which was already coming naturally. He ends up with a nice house and land for himself and his friends, having been fed all winter without working, and now he has lots of followers that thinks he is a miraculous God too.

Sounds a bit like the BKWSU to me. Now, did he do anything or did he just see what was coming anyway?

Many - if not all of these channelled entities - promise change just around the corner, most - if not all - an end of the world. And they have been doing so for hundreds or thousands of years ... They have a slightly better vision than ours, slightly superior intellect than those they prey on. But who can take them to court and who can examine them scientifically ... they and their followers generally have 10,000 rules and excuse why not.

Science uses predictive calculations based on previous held proven knowledge. There is no "proven knowledge" within Gyan. There is not one element of it that you can prove. It is all faith based. Neo-Bhakti basically. Show us one piece of hard science in 70 years of effort. The only thing close I can think of is the Dadi Janki brainwave test. Where your theory above also falls apart is the idea that "everything" follows the same patterns, e.g. the 4 Ages. Well, it clearly does not and where there are natural cycles, each cycle is different which would suggest that each Kalpa should be different.

And who has been so hard to you on the path of knowledge, that have thought you that they'll be the ones who decide who'll have vimans and not.

No one. It will be your karma. You see, Andrey, if you do not do Bhakti to science at this time, science will not do Bhakti to you in the future. If you speak badly of science and scientists, they will not serve you in the Golden Age. Its true. You will be the only deity with a bicycle. BTW, what is the PBK take on nuclear power for the Golden Age? Is it true or is it something do to with the Sangum Yuga?

Strange thing is, I have never heard of Dada Lekhraj or Veerendra Dev Dixit relate, with authority, the stories of their 83 birth. Surely, if they were self-realised they would be able to.

In the Murli, it is said i come in those who don't now about their 84 births. I come and tell them. I also found this:

Murli 28.01.04

"... You are not told the details of every birth ..."

Looking at one's own shooting, thoughts, words, acts, relationships, stage one can guess. Many signs one can see. Many thing are aso there to help in this explaind in the knowldge. One has to practice soul-conciousness to clear one's own part.

Nothing good? Like, democracy, the end of [some] slavery, the emancipation of [some] women, welfare states, growth of literacy, science and medicine, international trade and communications, even a few druggies have been cured by Scientology ...

Democracy is man-made. It is a rule of people over people. Those who rule in this rule have never thought themselves the art of ruling. That's why everyone thinks i can also become. God establishes righteous kingdom. He teaches Raja Yoga to become kings of kings. Those who study these art of ruling become kings of kings for many births. In the Golden Age the rule is kingdom. What is the major decline in time is the loss of the power of the soul? Now we accumulate that soul power from the rememberance of the Supreme Soul, and it lasts for the whole cycle. So how much do we have to accumulate? Very much.

And even Ram (which Ram ... Veerendra Dev Dixit?) does not always know or give answers. When he does not, how many children are courageous enough or have a strong enough intellect to question him?

One should also know how to ask a question. Is it related to the matter? Is it the appropriate time? We aslo learn manners. Just because one thinks of something, that he should receive a firm answer, doesn't mean anything. What is in your mind and what is in Baba's mind? You have one point he may have a different point. That's why two types of questions are there. One of opposition and one of interest. What will be the answer in the first case? Regarding the second it is said that we don't need ask questions. He himself gives answers, we just have to study.

No one. It will be your karma. You see, Andrey, if you do not do Bhakti to science at this time, science will not do Bhakti to you in the future. If you speak badly of science and scientists, they will not serve you in the Golden Age. Its true. You will be the only deity with a bicycle.

Science becomes instrumental in giving the message of God. In the Golden Age, nature is provider.

Democracy is man-made. It is a rule of people over people. Those who rule in this rule have never thought themselves the art of ruling. That's why everyone thinks I can also become. God establishes righteous kingdom. He teaches Raja Yoga to become kings of kings.

This topic is "Shiva and Drama", I will try and keep "on topic".

We do not know what Shiva is doing until it is done. There is no such thing as "king of kings". And why the obsession with status? Democracy and its kin, religious freedom, are human made. Historically, "god" or its representatives have been very against both. Ordinary humans fought and died to create them. Democracy is the service of elected representatives by the people [except perhaps in America, or where the American Dollar becomes involved in foreign policy ... but even they try!]. What they have done for sure is take power back from the "kings" that stole it in the first place, even power over the practise of faith, and share them between common people by way of rights. As an Eastern European perhaps you have little or no experience of this. I am sure that women worldwide, or Colored people under White rule, are very happy for a little democractic influence in their lives. And the sweatshop workers and Tibetan in China would be very happy for a little bit of religious or democratic protection.

What I am challenging here is BapDada's point of view that the World started 100% and then did nothing but decline until humanity find the BKWSU again. This is blatantly not true. The Drama appears to be much more complex that one single downward stairway. One single Cycle. For the average Indian villager in the 1940s/50s ... may be they could swallow this. They were living in circumstances little better than the scientific Stone or Iron Age and the hope that they once existed in a jewel encrusted heaven would be attractive. But it does not really work from an educated point of view. What was Shiva's input into these advances?

Were the kingdoms and ways of life of the Copper Age higher than the developed nations of today, e.g. Japan, Scandinavia, New Zealand? Please explain why.

King of kings mean that whoever kings has been there in the world he is greater than all of them together. Now it is the time that all the souls, kings and subjects, are all together present on the drama stage. One soul appears who becomes the ruler over all of them through the power of Yoga.

What I am challenging here is BapDada's point of view that the World started 100% and then did nothing but decline until humanity find the BKWSU again.

It’s a natural process. Everything becomes from new to old. There is no example of something oldening, then becoming little newer then little older again. Yes, there are such souls like Abraham, Buddha, Christ, who do some renewal and repair the world but this process cannot be stopped. New world is created when the Supreme Soul comes.

Were the kingdoms and ways of life of the Copper Age higher than the developed nations of today, e.g. Japan, Scandinavia, New Zealand? Please explain why.

It depends on what you look at. If you look at the luxury then this is not the luxury we like. We like the luxury of a pure planet, pure nature, not of sterile concrete-glass buildings and water in bottles. We don't like material prosperity to occupy the intellect to 100 % and deprive of inner happiness and lightness and to bring spiritual poverty. Look at any land today. Everyone is slave to the temporary achievements and losses, smiles and sad faces. I may be OK today but my friend is bad so we mix and both become mediocre level. Even if some peole live in happiness they cannot bestow this happiness to others. The world is full of sorrow, war, poverty, sickness. The world also needs purity, unity. This unity is not visible. The UN and other gatherings only show superficial unity. People quarrel at home with their wifes and hisbands, children and parents. So how can we have unity amongst nations. We ourselves have problems inside with ourselves, so how can we to take something from outside?

Even if you receive something good like freedom or power and cannot use it in a proper manner it harms you and those around you.

That's why now the king becomes a king in a nonviolent way, through God. If the king is good the country is well. There are no leaders of the world capable of creating a good world, because they themselves are not good they are impure human beings like we all are. But we aim for a future pure deity sovereignity.

What kind of freedom are women and others receiving? What do they receive along with this freedom? They receive confusion. This freedom is not real inner freedom but is outer superficial freedom that brings over exhausted sense organs and heavy mind. Mind is happy when it is concentrated. We receive sorrow when we have to doubt or separate our intellect to two directions.

Why is it said that when one acquires position one spoils? Because he becomes egoistic. But soul-conciousness leads to egolessness. We don’t want any external status, we want our own inner high stage. We don't want to rule over anyone. We want to have ourselves under our own control. We want this true inner independency. And how can we get that? Not by looking outwards. Not by making the body free to go everywhere and receiving everything. This inner freedom is given by the Supreme Soul for no effort in return as an inheritance, for one second. That's why all the souls of the world remember Him and praise Him. He makes them free from sorrow and they cry for Him when they are in sorrow. Then in happiness no one remembers Him.

And this democracy is not made to change the world but is created to make the degeneration of the world legal. When there is one religion there is one rule there is one way of life there is harmony. When this harmony goes to waste then people create this rule to live in separation. People are close together physically but far away in their ideas. They have different opinions inside. Now this rule will change when we all realize our inner needs that have no variety. We can reach a point of agreement on a spiritual level, not by looking at status, organization etc but looking as equals souls. What is the loss in this and what is the harm? Why not practice this and why not enjoy the results?

And it has always been that spiritual leaders and ideas lead the progress. Materially, the world advances just to match the ideas of the pioneers flying ahead of time. So now we have such an egoless spiritual leader that He does not like anything for himself but has come to do the benefit of the world. Then why do we not realize this but still continue with our old traditions and attachments to the old ways? How can I persuade you that Heaven is better than Hell?

What I am challenging here is BapDada's point of view that the World started 100% and then did nothing but decline until humanity find the BKWSU again.

One can also take the example of the battery. It has a maximum capacity, then whether it stays to full capacity, discharges slowly or rapidly, without putting more elctricity there is no back process. ShivBaba is the only one generator in the world and no one else. All others are just bigger or smaller baterries.

I am sure that women worldwide, or Colored people under White rule, are very happy for a little democractic influence in their lives. And the sweatshop workers and Tibetan in China would be very happy for a little bit of religious or democratic protection.

What has this rule brought? There is not believe in rebirth. Then would people be attracted to temporary achievements or eternal achievments? This is what i meant by not believing in the Law of Karma. Why should one be good, or do good? Now slogans are good ones are losers. Better take everything now, because you perish. If we have the conciousness of the soul that it is imperishable and is affected by its doings and these accounts have to be settled and that knowledge, virtues, powers are in the soul we will be distracted from the materialistic world and will be residing in the subtle stage of churning.

Also if one does not see whatever happens to him as a result of his own doings in the past, how will he see justice? Where will he see justice? Will he be just to the self and others? He sees the bad ones receive good things. Bad doings remain unnoticed, so i'll also become so. Where will he have inspiration to improve ones own character? What kind of images has this rule brought? Are there any images that one would like to become. Examples? At the other hand you have the deities.

And what has this rule brought to women, that they started acting like men and men started acting like women. It is my own personal opinion but a woman can never be happy with professional success, social status, authority, power, many husbands and divorces, name and fame, or education or knowledge. She can only be really, really, truly happy indeed with a familly, children and a home. And these values have been reducing less and less throughout the whole world with time, and the familly unity has been disintegrating to the point that it now has to be brough back into harmony again. There is no higher religion than this, except the Brahmin religion.

What has this rule brought?

You are obsessed with Kings and ruling, I am obsessed with Queens and service. I guess those are the two sides of the Brahmin family ...

OK, let's take sime simple like infant mortality. Not just infant mortality but the mortality rates of mothers and child at birth - both in the developing nations today and through out the last 2,500 years of history.

Mortality rates are dropping hugely. Lives are being save through no intervention of God whatsoever but science, politics, healthcare, social welfare. Not even an avatar soul was involved.

Is this good or bad? An improve or a decline?

By BK lore, this is the Iron Age and so it must be a decline from the Copper Age whre rates were much higher. Or is it "just there karma" and they had to die and they were happier dying? This is one thing that educating women and giving them rights, achieved through women's rights movement has done.

Explain.

Dear Brother,

You see both /kings - queens/ but these are not there to quarrel, to say OK you are your own and we are our own. No, we are both /whatever/ to unite in one familly as Brothers also. This knowledge aims this and i believe it is the queens that will unite, because kings are OK on their own. Queens are OK when under good rule of a good king /serving/. Of coarse the king likes the best queen for himself and that's why woman's beauty is praised, but it is inner purity that appears as outher beauty, and brings all other virtues, but as Brothers we will be always Brothers.

Not only mortality rate but quality of life has increased so much for many in so many different ways, but when you make a calculation it would be proved that infant mortality and mortality as a whole, as a rate or percentage can be smaller, but as a count is larger /because of the bigger population/ so as a whole hell becomes deeper. There are much more poor people /as a count/, that become even more poor. Ill people, new illnesses emerge, new cures, new illnesses, new cures. We are fighting a dead cause. It is like the attempts of a doctor to save a dying person. OK he may live some seconds more. Is this moral or not? Should he save or leave and let go. Should we not try to improve our life? I don't know where does this turning point of OK - he cannot be saved - comes. The point of letting go. I belive it may come when we realise there is a new life to live, a new world to build, a new perspective to see and we start working about this and stop working for the old /for example when the doctor realises the soul is leaving he may make effort to help the soul leave (with vibrations of pure intention of the mind)/ So we decide which part do we play part in.

I believe Baba has said somethig about this that in Copper Age decline is slower than in Silver Age /not sure/. It is possible that in Iron age decline is slower than in Copper Age, but there are always different stages in this, too.

What i can say is human beings can make effort and do good, but there is only one such soul that brings only benefit. Human beings can also become bad even against their concious wish. What starts as something good ends as something bad. Was it a pure or impure intention to fight for woman's rights?

He /this soul/ brings that infant mortality rate /untimely death, pains, sorrows, sufferings/ to 0% in Golden Age and Silver Age and this same soul also leads the woman's right's movement that open the gates of Heaven.

I also cannot understand your point of view. Do you state that we are progressing and our future fortune will be full due to human activity. I state that human activity sooner or later leads to catastrophy, do you have a different idea? Do you see any bright future without a new world...maybe Mars? Me not.

The difference between Heaven and Hell is that in Heaven we have only one life companion for many lives /21/ and this counts as purity and unadulteration. In hell one people makes many contacts which is considered impure. In Heaven the world is new and small. Is it the new world now, this big world? Are we in the new world or in the old world now? Are we deities, or do we have devilish thraits?

kings are OK on their own. Queens are OK when under good rule of a good king /serving/.

"O" means Shiva and "K" means kingdom, so they remember Shiva and take the kingdom of the self. Queens become queens when they marry. They don't belong to themselves, like now we have to give our mind, body, money, relationships etc. to the one Husband so we also become wives, because it is said that all souls are Sitas.

The Supreme Soul Shiva is not at all benefactor to only some and not to others. He has come for everyone to take them in a high stage, to make them soulconcious. Darma is not good for some and bad for others. The Supreme Soul Shiva tells The Knowledge that all souls are eternal. No soul can perish. But it is different to being immortal. He has come to make us immortal. According to my understanding it means soulconcious, all round part players Immortal means that we conquer death. We leave due to our own choice.

But will he teach everyone. A film or sing star of today, they only like to meet their admirers, if they hear a critics about themselves in the news they got depressed, but they are also very, very busy, they cannot talk to everyone, handshake with everyone. So ShivBaba is the biggest star, but does not have a delicate heart, he can uplift any soul provided the soul has courage to show and follows and does uplift all souls even the ones without courage.

We listen the Murli and have yaadh at home, then when we meet it is like a miracle for us. But he is also very ordinary. It is said that ShivBaba have children /means inheritors/, and worhippers, subjects etc. What do we aim to become. We aim to become equal. So it is also possible. We are also very ordinary. Baba says a regular student means an inheritor.

Now I understand what John Brother has said about the Dadis. Yes, compared to the souls of their rank – who take lesser births they definitely have aquired high status of being kings, but it is said that it is better to be a subject in the first birth.

What is different now then any other time is that God himself comes as authority and there is no one to speak for him. He speaks for himself, he is an authority himself. Everything can be checked and verified.

Exactly where does it say Shiva has returned to Paramdham after 1969?

It is generally accepted by BKs, so someone must have declared it but who, when, how?

Omshanti. There could be two reasons that come to my mind immediately.

One is that it is mentioned in the Avyakt Vanis/Sakar Murlis that the Father comes from the far away abode, i.e. Soul World. So the BKs might have construed it to mean that Shiva comes from the Soul World even after 1969.

Secondly, the standard method of entry of Avyakt BapDada described by BKs is that Gulzar Dadiji's soul goes into trance (or Subtle Region) just before the entry of BapDada into her. There in the Subtle Region, the Supreme Soul comes from the Soul World and enters into the subtle body of Brahma Baba and then this combination of incorporeal and the subtle Brahma Baba enters into Gulzar Dadi's body with a jerk and other physical changes in Gulzar Dadiji's body.

If there is any other explanation for the entry of Avyakt BapDada into Gulzar Dadiji, then I would be interested to know.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

One is that it is mentioned in the Avyakt Vanis/Sakar Murlis that the Father comes from the far away abode, i.e. Soul World. So the BKs might have construed it to mean that Shiva comes from the Soul World even after 1969.

My thinking is that Shiva comes down in 1936 from Paramdham and doesn't return until his 'job' is complete.

I don't think he even goes back temporarily until his part is played, I could be wrong of course and would be happy to see Murli points otherwise.

If there is any other explanation for the entry of Avyakt BapDada into Gulzar Dadiji, then I would be interested to know.

Why are we ruling out the most obvious explanation?

After death of Dada Lekhraj, high priests of BK needed a justification for their existence and exalted positions. Dadi Gulzar took the opportunity and faked channeling of spirit through her body, just as Dada Lekhraj had done in his times. This is the real "drama" that suited everyone. The high priests got the justification for their continued existence. The Brahmin children got to keep their emotional crutches, which they had become used to. Everyone was happy and the party continued.

Why is it necessary to enter a souls body in order to use its mind/intellect?

There is a change in Gulzar at that time, the whole vibe and air, the manner in which she holds herself, the beaming through the face, and, there is no need for her to fake it anyway, whats the big deal about souls communicating with us through another?