Who is the God of the BKs?

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howiemac

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Who is the God of the BKs?

Post30 Jan 2013

The BK concept of God is confused, one might think deliberately.

The official BK God is the unembodied soul they call "Shiva" or "Shiv Baba", or simply "Baba" meaning Father, or "Dada" meaning Grandfather (as in BapDada). By far the most common name they use in practice is "Baba".

They depict this God as a radiant point of golden light, often with a red egg-shaped body of light around it, and often seen against a pink-red background. The BK logo is a graphic representation of this translucent-red-egg-around-a-point-of-light. This egg-around-a-point-of-light is also the BK understanding of the appearance of any and every soul in the Soul World (and that is my experience and understanding also, except that the colour is orange, not red).

They call this God "The Supreme Soul", amongst a great many other epithets, and he (actually, it) is often depicted in BK illustrations as larger than the other souls, who in turn vary in size the further away they are from him, as they cluster around him in a hierarchical fashion (whereas, in my experience, all souls are the same size, and do not cluster).

However, in practice, the actual (if unofficial) BK God is the soul who incarnated as Lehkraj Kripalani, known as Dada Lehkraj, and who renamed himself "Brahma", and became known as "Brahma Baba" by his followers, or, again, simply "Baba".

The third variant is "BapDada", a name given to the combination of Brahma Baba and "Shiv Baba": they claim that Brahma Baba is now, since leaving his body in 1969, in angelic ghost form in the white light "Subtle Region" (this accords with my direct experience), and that he is constantly (?) combined with "Shiv Baba". This combination claim was also made throughout the 1960's, when Lehkraj was still alive, though I don't think the term BapDada was in use then. (I have no idea to what extent, if any, this claim of combination with "Shiv Baba" is true). BapDada is also referred to (in Avyakt Murlis, and by BKs), as simply "Baba".

So, the BKs typically say "Baba" when they mean "God", and they say "Baba" when they mean "Shiva", and they say "Baba" when they mean Lehkraj, and they say "Baba" when they mean the combination of the Lehkraj and "Shiva". It is fair to say that a great many BKs are themselves very confused about the distinction (if any) between Lehkraj and "God". And in the early days, and increasingly nowadays, "Shiv Baba" is forgotten about.

So it is very difficult to even discuss the God of the BKs without getting mired in confusion. I will be thinking "Shiva" and someone else will be thinking "Brahma Baba", while a third BK (or ex-BK) will be thinking "BapDada".

I will be thinking "the pure soul who never incarnates in a body", and someone else will be thinking "the old man who founded the BKs and who died in 1969", whilst a third will be thinking "angelic Brahma combined with Shiva in the Subtle Regions", whilst a fourth will be thinking of Dadi Gulzar in trance medium mode, and a fifth will be thinking of Dadi Janki!

I will be thinking that the God of the BKs is an unembodied soul who has Yoga with you, and floods you with love and light, and so helps you with self transformation. "Pukka" BKs will be thinking this God is speaking to them in the "Murlis", where he comes across as a modern Jehovah, demanding absolute obedience, and that his minions give all of their time, minds, money, and possessions to his organisation - the BKWSU - and work hard to amass a global physical empire and then to produce global physical devastation in his name.

All of this confusion and complication is very Indian and Hindu.

But by far the most common BK "God" is Brahma Baba (ie Lehkraj), and it seems clear that this was his desire and intention, and indeed in the early days it seems clear that he believed himself to be God, and proclaimed himself so. Many of the old Dadis and Dadas still believe this, I suspect. In the 1950's Shiva was introduced, but Lehkraj still claimed that his words were the words of "God". He continues to make this claim to this day, despite the obvious fact that a soul who never incarnates in human form, and never takes on human "sanskars", could therefore not talk in Hindi or any other language.

So where does this all lead? The God of the BKs is a vague and confusing concept, and it seems clear to me that Lehkraj created and used this confusion to his own advantage. He wanted to be top dog. So even when he accepted a God above or beyond him, he still claimed to be combined with that God. I will be charitable and accept that he believed (more or less) what he taught, and he was simply trying to make sense of psycho-spiritual experiences that were actually beyond his (and our) understanding.

The main confusion centres around Lehkraj first thinking he was God, and then later proclaiming that he himself was not God, but God's mouthpiece. Throughout, to this day, he speaks as if he is God. Therefore most of his followers see him as God. And they accept his proclamations, however self-contradictory or otherwise nonsensical, as the words of God. For most of them "Shiva" is theoretical, and they do not relate to "Shiva". Brahma Baba is their God and Guru. And it seems clear that this was his aim. He called himself the "number 1" soul ("Shiva" being number 0, and thus insignificant). He called himself Brahma, Krishna, Rama, Adi Dev, and claimed to be the founding Father of all of humanity, and of all religions. When he speaks, he claims that "God speaks". No wonder they think he is God!

After all, Lehkraj was a businessman, and in particular a salesman, and got rich selling diamonds to kings. So it makes sense that, when he retired and set up his own religious cult, he would continue to be the master salesman, and entrepreneur. Hyperbole and charisma were his main tools of trade. He created his religion in a his own image, to function as a business, driven by his charismatic selling, and focusing on "VIPs", i.e. the wealthy and powerful elite. He aimed big, sold hard, and allowed no setback to stand in his ways - precisely the qualities you would expect a successful and charismatic entrepreneur to bring to the table.

In business the guy at the top is God.
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leonard

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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post30 Jan 2013

Very best explaning of situation. In Hindi-English dictionary, older version, of interest that word Baapdada is given as real Hindi word and translated as 'ancestor'.
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howiemac

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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post31 Jan 2013

leonard wrote:Baapdada is given as real Hindi word and translated as 'ancestor'.

This is interesting - I have not encountered that before, but it makes sense (father-grandfather = ancestor), and it makes sense in the BK context too, as Brahma Baba claims to be the originator of all other souls (hence Brahma). The supreme ancestor!
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ex-l

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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post31 Jan 2013

Agreed about interesting. What is the history of the invention of the term "BapDada"?

Did BapDada use it first, e.g. introducing themselves as "I am BapDada", and then the BKs interpret it. Or did the BKs give it to them? What is the early note of its use?

Again with BKism, it where the use of a quite normal term is given a special value or meaning just because of its foreignness.

There have always been questions about the change in personality. Who can tell if it really is who they say it is?

If, at the end of the game, it turned out to be some other spirits or spirit guides altogether, working with or without Lekhraj Kirpalani, I would not be surprised at all.
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post31 Jan 2013

It must have been around 2004-2005 when I heard Dadi Janki narrating the story of how the name "BapDada" came about.

It would have been after they had moved to Abu. Brahma Baba (Lekraj Kirpalani) had been sick and was in Bombay. If my memory is not failing me I think he had been taken to an hospital. It is during a conversation he had with her at that time that he used the word "BapDada" for the first time and she had clearly been very excited with it.

I did not know back then that the concept of Incorporeal God Shiva did not exist within the BK world until the 1950s. I had been taught and had always understood God and Brahma to be two separate entities. I had noticed however that they often seemed to be pretty much one and the same in Dadi Janki's and other BK elders' minds. I thought that for them Brahma Baba had always been so much "God like" that they did not bother to make a distinction.

In my mind BapDada always described both Bap (God, the Father) and Dada (Brahma, the eldest Brother) together. It strikes me however that it is always used in the singular form as if it were only one person ("BapDada says", rather than "BapDada say"), which reinforces the idea that one should not bother making a distinction.

I thought that Dadi Janki's excitement with the "BapDada" concept was simply due to it supporting her own feelings about the proximity of Brahma and God but could it be that it was the first time that God was being associated with Brahma as a separate entity?
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howiemac

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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post01 Feb 2013

bkti-pit wrote:it is always used in the singular form as if it were only one person ("BapDada says", rather than "BapDada say"), which reinforces the idea that one should not bother making a distinction.

Occasionally in the Avyakt Murlis, he says :"both Bap and Dada" or similar, and also they spell it with a capital "D", both indicating the twin-soul hypothesis. However, the overwhelming emphasis otherwise is that they are one and the same, especially in the way that "Baba" is used interchangeably to mean either or both. It is as if Lekhraj himself wants to foster the confusion between the "Babas".
I thought that Dadi Janki's excitement with the "BapDada" concept was simply due to it supporting her own feelings about the proximity of Brahma and God but could it be that it was the first time that God was being associated with Brahma as a separate entity?

Interesting thought. But clearly, despite her excitement, Janki did not let it confuse her into thinking that Brahma Baba was not really God!
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post24 Apr 2013

Just to add I note quizzical entry in Avyakt Vani of 21 Jan 1970 : "EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE TWO, BapDada IS ONE".
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post24 Apr 2013

Just to add I note quizzical entry in Avyakt Vani of 21 Jan 1970 : "EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE TWO, BapDada IS ONE".

Not quite as "mysterious" or disingenuous (!) as the Christian trinity.

One couple, one pair. "BapDada" is asking to be thought of as a collective noun - "a brace of fathers".

But, like the trinity, it's an abstract construct and open to endless discursiveness (i.e. depends on the argument or rationale - from this perspective, yes; from that perspective, no).

For practical intents and purposes, we can only accept or reject the word of the "medium" that what comes out from his mouth is really from some other being, rather than his "hearing a voice" or being inspired by a misunderstood inner muse of his unconscious, or is living in some peculiar delusion, admirable or otherwise.

On that basis, one must then judge according to the content, i.e. what is said, whether the source is indeed "supernatural" then if you accept it is, over and above that - is it worthy of the title "God" as you understand "god" to mean, or do you change your definitions?

So we get back to discursive argument ... Benchmarks of truth are needed so our reasons are not lost in our rhymes.

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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post24 Apr 2013

I suppose one might see it as a continuation of their assertion that Lekhraj Kirpalani is God.

I know the BKs reading this forum will jump up at this point and say, "we don't say Lekhraj Kirpalani is God, we says Lekhraj Kirpalani is 100% equal to god" but that's not true. There was no God Shiva until some point after 1950 despite there even being another spirit voice through an medium earlier on. In the beginning, Lekhraj Kirpalani was their god and superior to god.

Who can really tell? For me, the theoretical discussion is a distraction and a waste of time. In fact, I've learnt in life that the most successful art, product or politics generally, or attractive people, sometimes have some kind of fault that keeps you hooked to them. It's almost as if the human mind is sucked in, caught starting think about just such ambiguities.

It it was all faultless or doubtless, and "perfectness" or symmetry is also part of the attraction, there would be nothing to discuss. Therefore the most success catches are near perfect symmetry with a little something extra or ambiguity. Perfect symmetry, perfect logic is seemingly too bland. This is similar to their classes in which, when pushed, they really don't have any answers. People are just encouraged to sort of think their own thing as long as it is close enough.

But it's all a distraction ... and if you are looking for god in it you are looking in the wrong place. It's not what they say which counts, it's what they do.

Don't listen to the voice, look at what it creates because in that you'll see the real nature of its spirit.
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post25 Apr 2013

ex-l wrote:I suppose one might see it as a continuation of their assertion that Lekhraj Kirpalani is God. I know the BKs reading this forum will jump up at this point and say, "we don't say Lekhraj Kirpalani is God, we says Lekhraj Kirpalani is 100% equal to god" but that's not true.

There are pukka BKs on one of their forums who insist that God Shiva did not (actively) enter Brahma and does not enter Avyakt BapDada, but that God is - like most ideas of God - quite remote, on a different level, and that Lekhraj somehow drew God to himself, and was inspired to try to verbalise what he 'knew' by the experience, i.e. all mistakes over the years are down to Brahma, all good things (like meditation experiences) are down to god.

It's said only a bad workman blames his tools!
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post25 Apr 2013

a) How are those BKs viewed by the BK elite/leaders?
    Are they just humoured, seen as somewhere between eccentrics to liabilities and kept away from VIPs in case they confuse them?
b) What do you think the BK elite/leaders really believe? Or even, "do they believe or are they just skilled as using the philosophy as a tool?"
    Do they teach what they really believe or just some simplistic concoction to keep the cash rolling in from the "Bhagat souls"? (* worshippers/term of contempt for someone with limited understanding)
Obviously a view like your report reduces the BK god to just the same level as every other wannabe godman or prophet and religion which a second generation of adherents turn into a Messiah (... with a nice line in businesses, retreats and bookshops on the side).
    Do you think that is the ultimate destination of the BKWSU and the elite/leaders already know it? Or do they still cling onto Destruction? Will Destruction gradually be completely removed from the religion and forgotten?
I think the "Blame Brahma Syndrome" is a big and just too easy cop out that goes against decades of teaching (and exploiting followers). It's also quite new, is not it? I mean, it's arisen within the last, what, 10 /15 years? Before they used to say everything that came out of Lekhraj Kirpalani's mouth was "Shrimat" and blame BKs for the mistakes. Now you are saying the fringes are blaming Lekhraj Kirpalani ... or is that coming right from the top? Do the Dadis and Didis publicly "blame Brahma" and admit his fallibility?

On the BK-PBK forum an idea was floating that "the end will become like the beginning", e.g. in the beginning of the Yugya, God was universal and omnipresent "Divine Light", and so it will turn out in the end. The period of anthropomorphised gods or spirit guides will end but only to the most enlightened of BKs.
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post29 Apr 2013

ex-l wrote: ... a view like your report reduces the BK god to just the same level as every other wannabe godman or prophet and religion which a second generation of adherents turn into a Messiah (... with a nice line in businesses, retreats and bookshops on the side). Do you think that is the ultimate destination of the BKWSU

Yes
... and the elite/leaders already know it?

No - not consciously. Probably a suppressed awareness - like someone holding shares in a company desperately hoping the falling share price will bottom out and then rise again ... whereas if they did (already know it), they'd surely "cut their losses" and engineer a new "Gyan".
Or do they still cling onto Destruction?

... Yes. as above.
Will Destruction gradually be completely removed from the religion and forgotten?

Not quite. It'll probably become like what happened with Christianity, when the apocalypse did not happen and Jesus Christ did not return by the time the first generation died away, then the second generation died off; the "second coming" was put off into a distant future that could just happen any time, preceded by "signs" of wars, earthquakes, pestilence, corruption, etc ... which is well, almost any time! (John the Revelator was brilliant at marketing!) There'll of course be different denominatiosn and offshoots and renegade groups like Heide Fittkau's and the PBKs, Vishnus etc - all coming up with their own reinterpretation ...

Aah, human beings. Glad I am a panther.
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post29 Apr 2013

Pink Panther wrote:No - not consciously. Probably a suppressed awareness - like someone holding shares in a company desperately hoping the falling share price will bottom out and then rise again ... whereas if they did (already know it), they'd surely "cut their losses" and engineer a new "Gyan".

Which is basically what the likes of the Brian Bacon, Miriam Subirana, corporate coaching BK types have done?

Robert Shubow (of Adi Dev fame) must have been the first to see the writing on the wall when he left to start up his Sat Yoga ashram and probably remains the most authentically "religious" ... and environmental ... of them all. He appears to have gone back to Sanyasi roots but there remain a BK backbone, it's now a "a Free Transformational University".

Shubow offers a model for how mendicant BKs might still remain in the business of religion and a framework for how their god concept might evolve, others appear to be following his "ashram" approach by offering retreats or retret type events.

Fittkau seemingly lost it with her Earth mother UFO cult ... but then her connection with the BKs and connection with the planet were always weak. However, looking back at the history of it all, she was possible the first Western corporate coaching type BKs. She was already in that kind of business before she became a BK. I remember when the BKs were all over her.
    Keep on this topic, I must say I think, "Who is the God of the BKs?" is the wrong question. It should be "What is the God of the BKs?"
The answer to that is much easier ... money and power. And from them one can deduce what kind of God they are have been seduced by. Mammon, is not it?

What other "god" would have essentially banned honest charitable actions towards others as the BKs did for decades and instead invested all its adherents' efforts into chasing VIPs but a Mammonistic one?
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Re: Who is the God of the BKs?

Post31 May 2013

In story of BK, God Shiva understanding comes after all group move to Mt Abu, that is to say 1952 or 1953 time. But this was also time of poverty, called 'beggary' by BK (but not sure how much poverty, because Dadi Gulzar in class says she never experience poverty). So, the interesting point is that coming of God in actuality happens at same time as poverty time.

I am wondering was BK in Mt Abu poverty time saying God Has Come in order to gain rupees and so help group to survive and thrive?

Does any reader have thoughts on this topic?

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