Why Celibacy ..??

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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post25 Feb 2013

dany wrote:In the old Greek and Roman temples, we often find statues of naked and half-naked beautiful Goddesses ...

It's copied straight out of Vaishnavism. Of course, the BKs being the BKs claim the Vashnavites copied them.

The BKs make no mention of this because it embarrasses their "everything is a memorial of what happened in the Confluence Age" theory but the entire Krishna (Lekhraj Kirpalani) saga is wrought with steamy eroticism. When Lekhraj Kirpalani was bathing with half-naked followers, lying around, massaging them and nibble food from their lips ... he was playing out some Krishna fantasy of his (and theirs). The archetype would have been ingrained within their mind. It's worth loosely listen through the video below and matching it with the facts we know; and working out from it what was going through Lekhraj Kirpalani's mind and why, in the absence of Shiva within the religion, why he called them his "gopis" and brides and why there was all the take of "husband". It's from the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.22.
    Never mind "remembering God, what about Lekhraj Kirpalani remember his wife?
Krishna, knowing the minds of the unmarried young gopis, blessed them with their desired objective. They had prayed for Krishna to become their husband and Krishna wanted to fulfil their desires.

Taking the girls' garments, He quickly climbed to the top of a kadamba tree. Then, as He laughed loudly and addressed the girls jokingly.

My dear girls, you may each come here as you wish and take back your garments ... Therefore, O slender-waisted girls, please come forward, either one by one or all together, and pick out your clothes.

Seeing how Krishna was joking with them, the gopīs became fully immersed in love for Him, and as they glanced at each other they began to laugh and joke among themselves, even in their embarrassment. But still they did not come out of the water.


Vastra Haran, Krishna and Gopis - Vintage Print.JPG
Lekhraj Kirpalani as Krishna bathing the BKs as gopis

The_BathingGopis2BlueKangra.jpg.gif.jpeg
Half-naked BKs as gopis
The_BathingGopis2BlueKangra.jpg.gif.jpeg (39.25 KiB) Viewed 6585 times

Krishna-and-the-gopis-love-to-sport-daily-in-the-sparkling-waters-of-Radha-kunda.jpg
Lekhraj Kirpalani as Krishna bathing the BKs as gopis
Krishna-and-the-gopis-love-to-sport-daily-in-the-sparkling-waters-of-Radha-kunda.jpg (87.46 KiB) Viewed 6585 times
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Pink Panther

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post25 Feb 2013

dany wrote:: In the old Greek and Roman temples, we often find statues of naked and half-naked beautiful Goddesses ...
[quote="ex-l']: It's copied straight out of Vaishnavism. Of course, the BKs being the BKs claim the Vashnavites copied them.[/quote]
How many BKs travel to so many places including India, and never visit historic sites or (real) museums? (Or real universities!)

From Delhi or Mumbai, they are shepherded to and from the BK centres and HQ with barely a "sniff" of the real India.

These supposed "master trikaldarshis" will pronounce on world history (let alone astrophysics, geology, cosmology) but for most their only direct contact with "History" is a tour of Pandav Bhavan or, for the adventurous, a trip to the Dilwara temple, where they will not bother to read any official history, happy to merely regurgitate Murli points to each other about it being a "memorial" to their humble selves and play games as to which statue is which senior BKs' memorial.

I am not sure what you meant, ex-l, with your comment above.

Next time you go to New Delhi (?!) pay a visit to the National Museum. If, in the sculpture section, you keep an astute eye, you may notice the evolution of Hindustani sculpture.

To be brief, there is a marked difference between the pre-Alexandrian and post-Alexandrian sculptures (aka pre-Hellenic and post-Hellenic) with the latter bringing that culture's realism, dynamism, movement into the aesthetic. Before that, the statues are rigid, formal, no realistic anatomy, as is common for the Hellenes. That does however appear chronologically later (and often exaggerated).

Is Hindu mythology and art all chicken, or part egg?

Eurasia, as a single land mass, was traversed by many a traveller and trader who never wrote a book (most were likely illiterate) so you can be sure that many things were exchanged between the cultures of the East, Middle East and West that were not directly "recorded". The mythologies evolved, often incorporating smatterings of episodes from others heard. Was the legend of Krishna's birth really a precursor to the Christ myth, or just another affected by the stories of Mithra and Osiris?

Jumping forward a few centuries and back to topic, how much of India's attitude to women today is a result of Muslim and British cultural invasion? Both of these were, at their time, far more patriarchal and discriminatory against women and extremely prudish about sex and the human form than the culture they found (allowing them to judge their 'subjects" as morally inferior and to consider their conquest as being for the good of the conquered).
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post26 Feb 2013

Pink Panther wrote:I am not sure what you meant, ex-l, with your comment above.

I meant, the Lekhraj Kirpalani of the Om Mandli parading around as Krishna, taking baths with the young, unmarried, half-naked women, lying around with them and nibbling food out of their mouths etc was a Lekhraj Kirpalani playing out Krishna fantasies he had heard about from Hinduism.

The way we and the rest of the world would see it is that Lekhraj Kirpalani was copying what he had heard in Hinduism; the way the BKs would portray it, Hinduism in 3000 years time is going to copy memorials of Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Om Mandli!

Your historical accounts or the influence of Islam and the Victorian British upon Indian sexuality are what is considered to be true.

What is interesting here, to pick up on your 'on topic' comments regarding the influence of Islam and the British invasions, is that the PBKs claim metaphorically that certain elements within the BKWSU are the Islam of which is spoken about in the Murlis and, taking that analogous model further, one could expect influences into the BKWSU from the Western BK order ... which is what I think we see today.

From the accounts of the Om Mandli in the Bhaibund book, which Om Radhe herself gives weight to by the clumsiness of her answers, it is clear that the early days of the Om Mandli were far more sensual even if still celibate. The books hints at more, e.g. males being able to visit females, Lekhraj Kirpalani massaging the girls breasts, but it does not go as far as to say "sex" so we may never know as I doubt what is left of the Old School BKWSU will tell and the post-1950s New School BKWSU, e.g. Ramesh, Chander, Nirwair, etc either has little idea what went on or is not saying.
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dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post29 Mar 2013

Land of sharp contrasts ..!!

Just when the Brahma Kumaris are threatening those who do not comply with celibacy by denying them entry to the "Golden Age", a woman, just few hundred miles to the north of Mount Abu, is already living the Golden Age, with five husbands, all of them are Brothers, under one roof and sleeping in a common room ...!!

Watch this ... The wife married to FIVE Brothers.
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post29 Mar 2013

dany wrote:Watch this ... The wife married to FIVE Brothers.

Lucky girl! She looks very happy.

Polyandry seems like a very good idea ... it's also a way of controlling population and, hence, surviving in barren environments. This used to be practiced in Tibet as well and is starting to be practised in China due to the lack of girls because of the 'one child' policy. Many hunter-gather societies practised it.

Is a BK center-in-charge a kind of spiritual polyandrer? Are BK Sisters basically in celibate lesbian marriages ... practising together (they believe) for their marriages together in the Golden Age?

They may say they are both "married to Baba" but Baba's pretty much a mental construct, so down here in the real world it's all shared houses, shared bills and even, in one or two cases, shared beds. Certainly shared bedrooms.
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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post30 Mar 2013

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dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post30 Mar 2013

Matching and expressive pictures, Pink Panther ...! May be a third one with a BK Sister in meditation session, might say it all?

I think both pictures say the same thing ... Women love to get attention and be surrounded, by multi-husbands or else ...!

"Raju" seems to be very happy with five husbands arrangement, as ex-l says, so why would she wait in vain for an elusive "Golden Age" if she is already living in one ...!??
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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post30 Mar 2013

Of course, the sex in most marriages tails off after a while. Marriage is not purely about sex, a surprising proportion of marriages become "celibate".

By insisting on celibacy the BKs do much more than just demand 'no sex', they also cut the individual off from friendship or companionship, affection and family ... even support in sickness or old age because without family, who is going to look after you?

By doing so, they then depend on those natural extensions being made to happen within the BK community, so the center becomes an surrogate family and all the mental and emotional bonds ... despite also going on about the evils of attachment ... happen within it.

I would have thought that the thought of an old age without any family would have increased a sub-conscious desperation that could be used to increase faith and desiring for the BK truth, e.g. Destruction, to happen.

How are the BKs adopting to the ageing of their following combined with the failure of their predictions of Destruction?
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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post19 Mar 2014

Interesting article about the culture that grows out of elevating celibacy above sexuality.

The author, Stephanie Dowrick, is well known in Australia as a popular and successful author of many "self-help” books, columnist (eg like this one) a psychologist and counsellor, an ordained interfaith minister and, ironically, a "close friend” of the BKs in Australia (not sure exactly how much she knows).

The article is a ”constructive critique” of celibacy - BK readers may like to play the word-replacement game, putting in ”yugya” where it says ”church” - or ”BK” where it says "Roman Catholic”.
Fear of intimacy is at the heart of what is poisoning the Catholic Church

The increasing transparency around the sexual abuse scandals within and beyond institutional Catholicism is widely welcomed. But this transparency does not go far enough.

Over the past two decades it has been my absolute privilege to work quite closely with a number of Catholic priests and nuns in my role as a retreat leader and spiritual writer. I have found each one of them wholly admirable: intelligent, compassionate and deeply loyal to their faith and church.

But this loyalty has to co-exist not only with their tremendous concern about the sexual abuse scandals and their church's treatment of victims, but also, and more broadly, with damaging attitudes within Catholicism about women, male and female friendships, sex and celibacy.

The friendship ''issue'' is stark. For some priests in particular there seems to be a sometimes soul-destroying confusion about how to show affection, understanding and compassionate support to one another, and even about wanting this.

That very human desire for closeness and understanding, even when it is entirely non-sexual, appears shaming for some. Should their relationship with God not meet all their needs? And, if not, where does the failing lie?

Of course many priests do have satisfying and stimulating friendships with one another and also with lay people and women religious (nuns). But others bring even to their most open friendships a fear of emotional honesty that often seems to co-exist with a paralysing and eventually distorting fear of sex. It is this fear that erodes the potential for mutual support that priests need. They need it for their own sake in working lives that are demanding and often isolating. (And made harder as cynicism about priests' integrity increases.)

They also need it to meet the vulnerabilities of the people to whom they offer pastoral and spiritual care. Without trustworthy friendships, few of us could accept our own complexity - never mind anyone else's. Nor could we offer effective support to others if we were not free to accept meaningful support ourselves.

I am old enough to remember a Catholic culture where ''particular friendships'' were feared even at school. At my high school we were forbidden to hold hands or sit too closely to one another. We were explicitly warned that we were potentially ''occasions of sin'' for boys and that as ''good girls'' it was up to us to halt the ever-incoming tide of male lust.

Things have changed radically in the world beyond Catholicism. Within it, the languages of repression have also softened. But fear of sexual desire and human closeness as well as a serious misreading and fear of vulnerability remain potent. In that climate, secrecy and shame flourish. A crippling ambivalence about intimacy often prevails. This distorts male friendships. It also forces male priests with adult female companions to live dishonestly at great cost to themselves and to their partners. That a small minority of priests do have adult, loving heterosexual relationships is not a secret. Or it shouldn't be. But what's most likely to distort if not destroy those relationships is the fear of being found out, shamed, and perhaps driven from a vocation they may value profoundly.

It's impossible not to conclude that while celibacy remains the rule for all priests, and while women are excluded from even the possibility of ordination, the sacred practice of priesthood will continue to decline in numbers and also in legitimacy.

Looking at the rifts between rhetoric and practice in contemporary Catholicism, it is too easy to regard celibacy as the problem (or the solution). Celibacy is an ancient religious practice. Freely chosen, it offers an exceptional opportunity to be available to many people and, through service to others, wholeheartedly available to God. It can be liberating and within Buddhism and Hinduism, and still within Catholicism, many celibates lead what appear to be joyful, emotionally fulfilled lives. Celibacy needs to remain as an honoured and honourable choice, but it is far more likely to do so and to flourish if it is not fear-driven and if the choice for intimacy - or for mutually supportive and honest friendships - is not seen as a shameful failing. This shift in attitude and practice would allow for a far more mature understanding of intimacy and even kindness. Catholic clergy would benefit; so would we all.

Stephanie Dowrick is a writer and interfaith minister. Her books include Forgiveness and Other Acts of Love and Heaven on Earth.
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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post21 Mar 2014

Celibacy needs to remain as an honoured and honourable choice, but it is far more likely to do so and to flourish if it is not fear-driven and if the choice for intimacy - or for mutually supportive and honest friendships - is not seen as a shameful failing. This shift in attitude and practice would allow for a far more mature understanding of intimacy and even kindness. Catholic clergy would benefit; so would we all.

I won't argue against what the author is writing but my brief response would be to pick up on how uncomfortably "diplomatic" the interfaith arena is ... it feels to me all the new and old traditions are tip-toeing around each others sensibilities a bit too much and I, personally, rankle at all the overwrought manners and respectfulness.

Perhaps what's really needed if for someone to wade in and tell them what they're doing a load of nonsense, ban them from doing it and commit them to secular therapy until they are cured of their Medieval, Middle Eastern, Iron Aged (add your own adjectives as required) superstitious, manipulative nonsense.

When I was young and pre-BK I have an over idealised conception of god, priesthood, enlightenment, spirituality etc.

Now, I realise that regardless of which brand it is, it is primarily a business and a way of gaining and managing resources, both human and material, i.e. money and free labor.

"Celibacy needs to remain as an honoured and honourable choice" reads to me as desperately "political". I'd rather say first and foremost, "Celibacy, and the reasons for the desire to adopt it, needs to be thoroughly questioned at an individual level but especially at a corporate/institutional level". And, of course, many good religious order do before accepting an adherent doing so.

The celibate old crones within the BKWSU are still filling 10,000s of young teenagers heads full of medieval nonsense they have never questioned ... because it is expedient (useful) for *THEM* (the old hags). For them, it's all about exploiting the resources of other individuals and demanding total celibacy gives them more.

And, of course, we know now their religion is based on a rolling series of lies, fabrications and failed predictions of the End of the World which subtly pressurise individuals into wanting give up more of themselves that is healthy.

Are they honorable? Not at all in my experience. They don't know the meaning of the word.

Is it really celibacy or just the management of resources achieved by aping a truly spiritual path through through adopting an external appearance on the level of rote and ritual? For example, mocking the Brahmin priest to take over a percentage of their religious market in India.
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