Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

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ex-l

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Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post02 Jan 2018

Understanding group dynamics, and where we fall within them, helps us to understand our BK experience and remove it, protect ourselves from repeating it, perhaps even protects others.

"Overconfidence and the attainment of status in groups" by Cameron Anderson and Sebastien Brion (2010), UC Berkeley ... correlate these findings with studies of "false confidence", narcissism and the 'Dunning–Kruger effect' (below).
Individuals who occupy positions of high status and authority tend to engage in overconfidence more than others. While prior work suggests that this excessive overconfidence is partly a product of their elevated status, the current research tested whether overconfidence can also lead to status:

Are individuals with overly positive self-perceptions of ability more likely to attain status in the first place?

Three studies of task-focused dyads and groups involving laboratory and field settings found support for this hypothesis. Further, the relation between overconfidence and status was consistently mediated by peer-perceived competence: overconfident individuals attained status because others inaccurately perceived them as more competent. An experimental manipulation established the causal priority of overconfidence, and a longitudinal study found the effects of overconfidence endured over time.

This research contributes to our understanding of status distribution systems in groups and organizations, the consequences of overconfidence, and the psychology of status.

The 'Dunning–Kruger effect' in particular is a brutal attack on BKism and, in particular, Lekhraj Kirpalani's spiritual probity, requiring us to take a very painful look in the mirror.
The 'Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude; without the self-awareness and understanding of one's own thought processes, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.
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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post04 Jan 2018

Ex-I, Your topic is vital for those who are on spiritual or other paths in life. It's OK to be proud; it's OK to have an ego. In fact, contrary to BK teachings, its healthy to have pride. However, there is the danger when an individual is over-powered by illusory superiority instead of being empowered by a super accomplishment or achieving a mile stone. The danger for an individual on the BK path is the entitlement of superiority derived from Almighty God. How can BKSO claim Godly authority, and the organization allowed its leader to die of neuron-degenerative complication? There are non-gyani or Kaliyugi institutions who have successfully cured patients of neuron-degenerative illnesses, including Parkinsonism.
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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post04 Jan 2018

ABC News Investigative Reporting Program, 2020 has been conducting an investigation of a group called Nexium. The findings of 2020 are instructive and address cult group dynamics, brain washing, and group founders who think they are a god.

ABC News primetime news magazine 20/20
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ex-l

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post04 Jan 2018

GuptaRati 6666 wrote:Ex-I, Your topic is vital for those who are on spiritual or other paths in life. It's OK to be proud; it's OK to have an ego. In fact, contrary to BK teachings, its healthy to have pride. However, there is the danger when an individual is over-powered by illusory superiority instead of being empowered by a super accomplishment or achieving a mile stone.

I have no idea if the Brahma Kumaris discuss such issues. They certainly don't publicise their discussion of such issues.

Surely a one million plus membership "university" should be able to afford a journal of its own and have enough detachment and integrity to do so?

I think it's a very valid issue to question.

Many BKs the world over, generation after generation, question the leadership of the BKWSU at all levels and their competence or qualifications to lead. These findings might point in the right directions to look.

Within BKism all that seems to matter is,
    a) getting up every morning for 4am and not [getting caught] having sex,
    b) unquestioning adherence and deference to the incumbents,
    c) money and property.
Having sufficient confidence in the validity and veracity of the teachings, or being able to learn it, might lead to someone with none of (c) to become a center-in-charge and move up the ranks.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post04 Jan 2018

ex-l wrote:I have no idea if the Brahma Kumaris discuss such issues. They certainly don't publicise their discussion of such issues.

BKs do not need to. They list ego as one of the 5 vices, ‘nuff said. While at the same time teaching (as taught by ”god” in the Murli) that as BKs they can have ”pure ego” of being BKs, the chosen, and of becoming worship-worthy deities. Some of the Seniors are more adept at that than others.

Where I come from, saying someone has pure ego means they have nothing but ego.

They also learn to break attachments and aim for ”liberation in life” (jeewan mukti) whilst simultaneously teach (are being taught by ”god”) that they live in a gilded golden cage that Baba has created for them, the cage of srimat, Maryadas etc.

That is, vices are bad except the the ones BKs encourage, being attached or trapped is bad except if trapped by them.
ex-l wrote:Having sufficient confidence in the validity and veracity of the teachings, or being able to learn it, might lead to someone with none of (c) to become a center-in-charge and move up the ranks.

We’ve heard a few people here tell of how they really didn’t believe all they taught but were good enough”professional” BKs to be living in centres and teaching.
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Arbit

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post09 Jan 2018

Pink Panther wrote:BKs do not need to. They list ego as one of the 5 vices, ‘nuff said.

Here I'd like to point out how much gets lost in translation. Before anyone misunderstands, I am not defending BKs.

The Sanskrit (and Hindi) words "aham" and "ahankar" both get translated as ego in English. The former implies "I", as in the being, the latter implies an excessively favorable opinion of oneself, often at the expense of others. The latter is considered to be a vice, not the former.

There are scores of words and concepts from the Vedic civilization that have no equivalence in Abrahamic civilizations. Much of Hindu-bashing is happens due to the resulting poor translation.
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ex-l

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post10 Jan 2018

Arbit wrote:The Sanskrit (and Hindi) words "aham" and "ahankar" both get translated as ego in English ... Much of Hindu-bashing is happens due to the resulting poor translation.

I am sure that is true, as in Westerners laying on their own additional layers after the translation, but which of the above do the BKs use?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post10 Jan 2018

Ego is who I think I am, not the actual self but my sense of self. It is neither good nor bad. Ego is a necessary function of the psyche. It is a construct.

Ahamkara is also exactly saying that - it is the ”I am” (aham) that I have constructed (kara - made, done).

It is the BKs, purported guardians of "God's University” (ishwariya vishwa vidyalaya) who have named it as #1 in the list of vices, rather than encourage study and research, or even teach the basics (let alone the depths) of psychological dynamics.

There is much more understanding available in the vedic traditions as you say, Arbit. The BKs are instructed not to go there.
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ex-l

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post10 Jan 2018

In the early days, during the Om Mandli, the BKs certainly used aham - as in "aham Brahma asmi", but that became quickly lost in later translations.

I'd still like to know the Hindi word they use.

My interpretation of what they mean by ego or how they use it - and let's remember Lekhraj Kirpalani's putatively famous "last words" about "egolessness" - are the entirely reasonable and natural boundary we erect around ourselves to defend ourselves from exploitation. Boundaries that the BKs seek to erode entirely so that there is no resistance to them.

It is veering slightly off topic but is it egotism they mean, as in self-importance, or having one's own mind? Or merely resistance to their commands?

Is it not being utterly full of oneself to believe that one's utterances are Shrimat, and that "God" is touching and directing one's minds and actions?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post10 Jan 2018

ex-l wrote:I'd still like to know the Hindi word they use [for ego].
In the 5 vices, they name ahamkara. i was however wrong to say they list it as #1, that position belongs to kaam.

The BK five vices are a carbon copy of the Sikhs' five thieves. I remember it was said that the ordering of 1-5 was going from ”grossest to subtlest”.

Kaam (desire)
Krodh (anger)
Lobh (greed)
Moh (attachment)
Hankaar/ ahamkar (ego)

There used to be a Hindi ”traffic control” tune that listed these off in the lyrics!

Kaam - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaam
Kaam (from Sanskrit kama) meaning deep extensive desire, uncontrolled longing, concupiscence, sensuality or lasciviousness, counted among the five cardinal sins or sinful propensities in Sikhism.
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Arbit

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Re: Overconfidence and the Attainment of Status in Groups

Post10 Jan 2018

Pink Panther wrote:Ahamkara is also exactly saying that - it is the ”I am” (aham) that I have constructed (kara - made, done).

Neither is this the dictionary meaning of Ahankara, nor is it the popular understanding of the word. Ahankara is socially and etymologically understood to mean "self-conceit", "egotism", etc. (BTW, Ahamkara, with the m, is an incorrect transliteration of the Sanskrit word - but that's besides the point.)

PP is right, that "Aham" means ego, and there is nothing good or bad about it.

BK Murlis in Hindi use Ahankara, and not Aham. Ahankara gets translated to Ego in English versions.

The 5 vices come from classic Vedic literature. Of course Sikhism is a subset of Vedism. I don't think I have encountered the gradation of vices in Vedic literature the way Murlis do, with Kama, which actually means desire and not necessarily sex, although it could encompass the desire for sex, at the top. In fact Vedic literature shows different vices as reason for downfall of different people.

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