Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Rita

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Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post04 Jan 2019


GuptaRati 6666 wrote:Rita, Is there an English translation of the you tube video?
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Rita

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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post07 Jan 2019

No English version. The speaker is member of anti superstition oraganisation. His name is Shyam Manav
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ex-l

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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post07 Jan 2019

If he read English, please recommend him to our site.

One of the ways in which the Brahma Kumaris minimise the effects of critics, is to point to the inaccuracies in their criticisms from a BK point of view, portraying them as "not understanding", as in being unenlightened or "body-conscious" as they call it.

For example, they believe that only they know the "true" meaning and "true" identity of Brahma and Shankar and, if he is speaking from a traditional Hindu point of view, won't understanding the BK use of the terms is different.

Shankar is a complicated issue for BKs, I am not sure even the majority of BKs understand who or what Shankar is. It is an uncomfortable "tag along" the BKs added at some point because there are ambiguities or confusings as to who or what Shiva and Shakar (Shiv-Shankar) is within the Hinduism from which BK borrows and steal words and concepted.

Of course, while being demented, the BKs practise the ultimate spiritual arrogance of believe only they know the truth and everyone else is ignorant. They know absolutely nothing about the real evolution of Vedic thought and Hinduism.*

They will look down upon anyone arguing from a traditional Hindu point of view. They have had decades worth of looking down upon Hinduism drummed into them.

For me, they only added the word and concept of "Shiva" - which they only added around 1956 - in the same way a shopkeep adds a new item in their window ... to draw in more customers. They claimed Krishna, Brahma, Narayan, Radhe, Vishnu etc ... why not just add a Shiva to attract Shivaites too? To claim everything as their own.

The addition of a Shankar like figure came even later.

To some degree Brahma Kumarism "succeeds" because it offers a very simplified, tidy and symmetrical version of Hindu concepts for modern people without the time and intellectual capacity to understand more ... like shopkeepers offering a "new and improved" version to housewives. Part of marketing their "new and improved" version is to successfully point out how "bad" the old one and its "shopkeepers" (gurus/pandits etc) are.

Of the few gurus or pandits that have challenged BKism, few seem to get it at all.

Can you paraphrase what the gentleman is saying?

* (The current non-BK version of Shiv-Shankar is most likely to be an amalgamation of various older local deities into a single figure by previous religious empire builders. There was no universal agreement of who or what Shiv-Shankar was and did).
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Pink Panther

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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post07 Jan 2019

ex-l wrote:The addition of a Shankar like figure came even later.

To some degree Brahma Kumarism "succeeds" because it offers a very simplified, tidy and symmetrical version of Hindu concepts for modern people without the time and intellectual capacity to understand more ...

Shankar came into the BK pantheon when Shiva was introduced as the ”point form” and the "new improved" version of ”truth”.

Before this happened in the mid-1950s they talked about the traditional Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (Shiv- Shankar) and the pictures made showed all three having the face of Lekhraj Kirpalani (a very humble narcissist).

After the edifice of Gyan v1.0.1 Prajapati God Brahma fell apart with the early predictions of the end of the world failing to eventuate, the BKs left Karachi and went to Abu. They started again and reshaped their teachings, the new improved version 2.0.0 that would better serve (fool) a wider national source of funding for the impoverished community than the local Karachi society they had grown out of. They believed Karachi was the centre of the universe but now it had suddenly shifted to Mt Abu.
ex-l wrote:* (The current non-BK version of Shiv-Shankar is most likely to be an amalgamation of various older local deities into a single figure by previous religious empire builders. There was no universal agreement of who or what Shiv-Shankar was and did

This is the nature of the religions of Hindustan. One textbook I read said that the one feature that unites all the different sects and cults within what we call Hinduism is the relaxed way they reinterpret beliefs, incorporating or rejecting whatever suits, re-structuring or ignoring the little known histories, revising legends and hierarchies to suit their particular beliefs and motives.

There are scholars etc who study scripture but there's lots of room for anyone to teach a new belief system or interpretation (fairy tale) and be no less valid than any of the other fairy tales! You are well within acceptable Hindu dogma if you include familiar terms, ideas and practices, and variations on social values that can be linked to any pre-existing major tradition.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post08 Jan 2019

From a 1959 document called The Real Gita part of which, at least, is in the Library area. This document was written by Jagdish Chander under his "Sanjay" nom de plume.

shankar.jpg
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post08 Jan 2019

Since he is from anti superstition organisation, somebody had asked him that is it possible to channel God.

He has replied saying it's false propaganda to convince people that they are genuinely channeling God's message. The human medium claiming to be channeling God's message is either maniac or suffering from any psychological condition like schizophrenia.

There are 3-4 videos on brahmakumaris.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post08 Jan 2019

Rita wrote:The human medium claiming to be channeling God's message is either maniac or suffering from any psychological condition like schizophrenia.

I believe this is very true and the starting point for understanding Brahma Kumarism. Lekhraj Kirpalani suffered from some kind of deep seated mental health condition, the very least of which included delusions of grandeur, and the community around him - who had very little worldly experience (the Bhaibund women and children were notoriously cloistered) - moulded themselves around that mental illness becoming mentally imbalanced themselves.

And this remains the core of BKism to this day. It, literally, triggers or induces some kind of mental illness in adherents.

The cult was only made possible by Lekhraj Kirpalani's tremendous wealth - that they burned through without seeking to earn more or invest it as they were sure the world was going to end - and it has remained wealth seeking in order to sustain its mania. That's one the problems, you see, mania ... delusions of grandeur ... spending other people's money you did not have to earn with hard work or intelligence ... is "fun" for those who are doing it.

I think it is hard for Westerners to fully understand the extent of Lekhraj Kirpalani's mania because we do not understand the outlandish extremity of his or their claims. He went from claiming he was Krishna and Narayan (two separate supreme Gods ... the BKs teach Krishna grows up to become Narayan which is utter nonsense according to Hinduism), to then being - in person - the Trimurti. Not just Brahma, but Vishnu and Shankar too.

That's like a shop owner in England, according to Christian terms, claiming that he and his teenage, uneducated hand maiden were Adam and Eve (which the BKs *also* claimed), and the Holy Trinity as well ... the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Again from about 1959 which is about the earliest I can find, where they moved on from claiming the two main characters were Lasksmi and Narayan, to adopting the Trimurti ... and putting Lekhraj Kirpalani's face on all three.

If the ShivSena saw this at the time, they be burning BK centres down. Again, it's like me claiming to be God and putting my face on images of Jesus instead. It's so far off the register it is impossible to realise *how* insane and crazy it is.

And yet, all those "great" BKs like Dadi Janki, Dadi Gulzar, Sister Jayanti, Sister Shivani etc believe it unquestionably.

triumurti.jpg
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post08 Jan 2019

As, as a short footnote, at this time (1959) they had not developed their beliefs to belief "God" was a point of light. He was still, at this point, Shivlingum shaped ... as in an oval egg shape.

Funnily enough - for a religion that only believes the world is 5,000 years old - they also started calling human souls "saligrams", a habit that continues to this day. Saligrams (Shaligramas or Salagrama in Hinduism) are black coloured stones, the fossilized remains of now extinct sea dwelling ammonites (shellfish) of the Devonian-Cretaceous period, existing 400 to 66 million years ago. The worshipping of saligrams is traced back to the time of Adi Shankara, about 800 years AD.

I cannot talk for Indians and Hindus but most Western BKs have not a single clue about how crazy, confused and mixed up all these ideas are that the BKs play deluded that they are "being profound" by knowing the foreign words.

Most of the inner teachings of the BKs remain unchanged, unquestioned and unchallenged from this period.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post10 Jan 2019

ex-l wrote:As, as a short footnote, at this time (1959) they had not developed their beliefs to belief "God" was a point of light. He was still, at this point, Shivlingum shaped ... as in an oval egg shape.

I vaguely remember one of the senior Dadi (forgot the name) who was part of the original Om Mandali sharing her experience over a discourse in Mt. Abu that Brahma Baba made them to practice meditation, saying the incorporeal Shiva was as big as football for some time, later reduced the size to a tennis ball, and subsequently to a point of light.

She said that this was done because it could have been difficult for the young girls to comprehend the fact that Shiva Baba was just a point of light.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post10 Jan 2019

Rajdhani wrote:She said that this was done because it could have been difficult for the young girls to comprehend the fact that Shiva Baba was just a point of light.

That the what the say ... but it is patently ridiculous and, I think, designed to hide the truth.

Firstly, what we have discovered that the majority of the original Elders have colluded together to make up a fictional story and stick to it. Part of that collusion, or fraud, is that there was no God Shiva in the religion until around 1956 (there is evidence to prove his).

A truer version might be that Lekhraj Kirpalani and Om Radhe were, both, too stupid and deluded to understand.

In the first case, they were both ... and that they could is unbelieveable to me ... capable of believing and promoting to the world - including writing letters, sending books and telegrams to every famous politician, VIP or member royalty that Lekhraj Kirpalani was God.

And that they continued to believe, unquestioningly, so for more than 20 years (approx 1932 to 1956).

Seriously!

Now try an experiment ... take a 4 or 6 year old kid, let alone a teenager as many of the girls were, and tell them "God is a shining star" ... then see how many believe it.

Kids being kids, I'll predict 100% belief ... now, then, anywhere in the world ... because kids believe what they are told.

Therefore, the problem was not the young girls ... it was with the delusion of Lekhraj Kirpalani and the infatuation of Om Radhe and the others with him.

My conclusion is that asides from being a deluded ego maniac - (who else would believe they are god and allow others to do so?) - Lekhraj Kirpalani did not have very good philosophical/abstract thinking abilities.

And this lack of philosophical or abstract thinking ability blights BKism and the BKWSU until this day.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post10 Jan 2019

ex-l wrote:... And this lack of philosophical or abstract thinking ability blights BKism and the BKWSU until this day.

I'd actually go as far as to write that they have beaten philosophical or abstract thinking out of people for decades.

All they are really interested in is,
    a) having people submit to their authority and conform to their business model, and
    b) make money.
All they really adopt into their religions, is new embellishments to make or save money, part of which is social climbing (looking important).

In truth, the BKs' philosophical abilities are about as poor as their archeological abilities or knowledge or physics.They've just re-marketed their founders' delusion and stupidity as The Highest and Supreme Knowledge™.
philosophy

the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline. See also natural philosophy.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post11 Jan 2019

I do not think it's consciously and well planned collusion for a particular "story" to be put out there for a period of time.

From what I have seen of the BKs over the years, they make it up as they go along. The Seniors all tacitly agree not to contradict any of the others Seniors. It's bad look, i.e. they just say and do whatever it takes to keep the senior level of the institution looking good.

If one senior tells a story about a football sized lingam Baba that shrunk to a tennis ball then a point, if this is brought up with another senior, the other senior will not say the first was mistaken. They will equivocate, say anything that brings the discussion back to what the student needs to do today (pull rank rather than explain the contradiction directly), "that was then, now remember Baba and do more Yoga” they’ll say!

The BKs have never satisfactorily resolved the question of how it is a body of ”knowledge" - whose authority is Divine Revelation from God, the source of absolute truth and all wisdom - received by the #1 son, highest ever human soul - then needed so many 180 degree turnarounds and multiple other revisions.

As you say ex-l , it's not like where it (the Gyan) got to today is beyond the understanding of even a 6 year old!
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post11 Jan 2019

Every time the announcements come from Mt. Abu to stock 6 months groceries, all followers are euphoric, only to listen to it again after couple of years. As we all know, this is happening from a long time. That is why I requested elsewhere in the forum to have a count down clock in this website starting from 2032. At least this time they shouldn't be allowed to goof up.

We also need to have one for 1976 and other 2 or 3 key dates mentioned in the past as the final Destruction dates. The clocks dedicated for the past ones should indicate the minus time, in the sense, as of today the 1976 clock should show 42 Years of "Life" since the prediction went wrong.

This is will be a sure shot slap on their faces and a small tribute to the people who lost their everything and in the process the misguided followers deprived their hard earned wealth to their kith and kin which literally put them on the streets to fend for themselves.

Secondly, they say very few people who have taken in Advance Party took The Knowledge in their 83rd birth and then died only to take birth the 84th time to be part of Advanced Party. If they keep on changing the dates and the narration and manage to get new followers over period of time, theoretically speaking, in the year 2100, their 83-84 birth story will also fall flat.
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post11 Jan 2019

You are right ... take the number one player in the Advance Party ... Om Radhe.

She died in 1965 and was supposed to give birth to Lekhraj Kirpalani as Krishna, therefore she's 53 now.

Has she given birth to Krishna yet?
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Re: Brahmakumari founder had Shankar & Brahma in his body?

Post12 Jan 2019

Rajdhani wrote: This is will be a sure shot slap on their faces and a small tribute to the people who lost their everything and in the process the misguided followers deprived their hard earned wealth to their kith and kin which literally put them on the streets to fend for themselves.

To give you a glimpse of Indian real estate boom, a single 60 x 40 feet plot in an urban areas, in today's market, costs a whopping half a million USD. Because all these people who donated their homes etc back in the late 70s, are in today's prime locations/center of the city.

I vividly remember a Senior Sister who was/is head/in-charge of a zone (3 to 5 districts in an Indian state) expressing irritation about an aged lady who had donated acres of land to the Brahma Kumaris. Mind you, this lady was not even staying in the center and was making a living at her home.

As far as I am concerned, this lady was neither demanding kind of person nor a person who throws tantrums. May be this Senior Sister was thinking/thinks that they are the exclusive agency who can give the ultimate "Pass" to the heaven and here in this world, they should have unconditional access to all the resources of lowly life people.
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