My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

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ex-l

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post14 May 2019

CS1979 wrote:1. I do know there is no change in behavior on the BK family that holds a victim.

I found it difficult to understand a lot of that post but, in reply to the above, having spent years among the BKs of a large centre, attending morning class every day (except towards the end of my time), teaching classes and courses, being involved in service and putting money in the box, when I left I lost all of those relationships. Basically no one came to see me or speak to me to see if I was OK etc and, of course, basically no one came to socialise.

From a human point of view, I would argue that I had been absolutely wasting my time and energy. That although we were polite and cordial with each other, we did not have "friendships" and "relationships" ... which human beings need ... all focus was on "The Baba" and serving the organization (aka being exploited) in order to earn cosmic Brownie points.

On one hand, I guess I had become 'contagious', suffering from the plague of doubt that no one wanted to catch; on the other, if my conduct and personality was such that no one wanted to relate to me, no one had given any idea of why in order for me to grow or learn during my time with them. It was all about fitting in to serve the cult.

They cut you off from friends and family (and, let's be honest, turn you into an exclusive, reclusive, rejective OCD idiot that no non-BK could or would really have as a friend) and then when you leave, you die alive for a second time and have to start all over ... which is bad for a young person but I'd guess ever worse for an older person.

These days, I hear they bombard you with automatic phone texts and emails with "essences" and events etc.
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CS1979

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post16 May 2019

Hello ex-I

As I stated I draw a lot of points from all posts and so your last post was a good snapshot of a few points as it happens or could happen.

I will concede that I never let anyone control of my mind, soul, emotions. But, as we know, some relationships with young, old, family colleagues become a timid, tame or tightened relation that continue or fritter over time and distance.

The aspect of an inner conspiracy by one party over another in a planned attempt and success is not there in most relationships. Having a chance to read the hidden aspects in this forum made me read a lot and become alert (smarter later).

I did not become idiot yet - perhaps if I had not got this Gyan here.

There have been subtle attempts to connect and suggest all is going to be as usual and fine. This through some common friends which cannot be written or disconnected from.

So, as you wrote, and also echoed by someone else, I will play along (as in cricket with scoring a run) so the other side may drop me, knowing no "material" real or valuable will see its way to their side.

My mind each day is more confident - (by the grace of the god I believe in - who is as good for others) and allows me to see lots of the real stuff and intent.

This time I am reminded of the cap seller and the monkeys. I narrate the next-gen cap seller who has almost the same story - till the monkeys wear the cap and perched in top branches of The Tree. The cap seller throws his cap down as was instructed by his Father back in the distant past. But the monkeys refuses to throw it as their dad also had advised how his generation got fooled. So with some good tips, we can be alert.

Staying strong on re-solicitation is more of an art or more of science I may not know, but it becomes good humor as I witness the way the loyalists go about the greedy and cunning ways of charming or luring a person back.
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Pink Panther

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post17 May 2019

CS1979 wrote: But, as we know, some relationships with young, old, family colleagues become a timid, tame or tightened relation that continue or fritter over time and distance.

Many of us after leaving BKs still retain a certain attachment and fondness to those we shared time with. Being in the same place at the same time is to share experiences.

When my daughter was young I used to read a monthly parenting magazine. One article really stuck with me. It was about teaching children about friendship. Of course any half-intelligent parent will tell you that you learn about yourself, what ”informed" you as a child, when you're thinking about how to raise your own child.

This article had one point that stood out for me. Children (and the rest of us) often confuse those we spend time with in a cordial, social common "space” as being friends. In this case the example was the school classroom or playground but it can be a workplace or community or local pub or club - people who are regulars there may beceome seen as being actual ”friends” when they really were just co-travellers in a bus or, as the Sufi analogy describes, they joined our caravan for a while, or we joined theirs.

Spiritual tricks in many traditions that are suggested for breaking over-attachment often include analogies like that, to see others as people who come and go on a caravan, or as temporary fellow travellers who have their own destinations etc.

That is not unlike the idea of overcoming sexual attractions or desires that overwhelms us by trying to see the other person as a bag of pus, bones, guts and bowel contents!

To me, that's a bit like saying that BKs should just consider Murli points as mere ink on thin sheets of tree particles, pixels on a screen, or, if listened to, as mere vibrating particles of air coming from a speaker cone or a throat (which is pus and blood etc!). Hey, if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander, right! The fallacy of that view is of course ”meaning” - what does anything mean to you, what comes to mind when you encounter it?

Of course BKs and Vedantists etc don't talk about over-attachment or overwhelming desires, they lump all attachment and desire as bad. There is no level of basic human desire or attachment that’s acceptable. being human is unacceptable, break all attachments, you're not your body, your body is a damn dangerous burden and nuisance preventing you from being you.

This way of thinking means you are always at fault, as per the Christian Catholic sense, always mea culpa (it is my fault), therefore needing purification, guidance to salvation - which of course they are there to provide. What a sales pitch!

But I have gone off point. The article went on to say that although at the time when we played with other children in the school playground, they were our friends, we'd name them as such to our parents when they asked about our day. Now, as adults, if we can even remember them we don't think of them now as close friends (with a few possible exceptions). Nor do we think we need to go back to school - that is our alma mater. We graduated, we moved on. There are maybe a few friends if any from those days we might stay in touch with, but the rest were just ”fellow travellers" at that time whom, if we bumped into them in the street, we might chat with for minute, but no more than that.

We may remember some characters - A was a bully, B was always taking stuff from me, C was teacher's pet etc - but it was only D who ever made a point to help me when things were tough, D was actually a good person, why wasn't I closer to D? I wonder where D is today ...?

So, one tactic BKs (and other cults) use is the idea of getting people to spend more and more time with them, make them feel welcome and comfortable, so they gradually begin to identify with them as one of them. When you least expect it, they turn into A, B and C types! If you are lucky you may find a BK who is a D type, there are some good people.

But as ex-l related, when you choose to not be a BK anymore, to not be the one who goes to them, to be yourself and not be who they want you to be, they are no longer interested in you, they won't come to you - except to try to get you to go back to them. Once you are seen as out of their influence, they'll leave you alone. Even if you need any other kind of support, they’ll leave you alone -, or especially if ...

So all the adages and terms about friendship can come to mind to guide us.
Erstwhile friends
fair-weather friends
A friend in need is a friend in deed
A real friend is one who walks in when the rest of the world walks out
A man is known by the company he keeps
Absence makes the heart grow fonder
Birds of a feather flock together
False friends are worse than open enemies
Familiarity breeds contempt
Friends are thieves of time (either in a good or a bad way)
Strangers are just friends waiting to happen

... and so on
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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post17 May 2019

CS1979, Ex-I, and Pink,

Thank you for you detailed accounts. They are always great lessons of wisdom. I do not consider my time, money, and energies used for BK work as wasted. There are no expectations of returns from them by me. Karma was part of my way of life and living before my studies of the BK system. I have moved on to other more interesting, fascinating, and fulfilling parts of my divine contract than the stiff-jacket, BK life is constructed to be.

For my graduating banquet, prom for medical students many decades ago, I had no plans to go by myself, though many of my colleagues knew of my BK ways of life. There was a smart, attractive, and unconventional lady who was my class mate for a special surgery elective course. I asked her for the date and she happily accepted, after I assured her I was serious about my request. Today, we are still friends and she has become the V P of a major fortune 500 pharmaceutical company. None of my male class mates wanted to date her. I had no regrets asking her for the date and to this day she is grateful that I did.
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ex-l

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post17 May 2019

GuptaRati 6666 wrote:Karma was part of my way of life ... I had no regrets asking her for the date and to this day she is grateful that I did.

There are few better karmas in life, than leaving a lady grateful after a night out. ;)
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ex-l

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post21 May 2019

vlakshmi wrote:I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I value peace more.

... And so they left, it appears. Had to barb their exit with a little superiority about "valuing peace". Is it truly "peace"?

Is it the normal thing for BKs not to wish to discuss themselves, their thoughts and feelings honestly? To explore at actual psychological patterns instead of just trying to "Om" them away?

I was thinking about myself back when I was one. Obviously, to express anything remotely like a "doubt" or to question was seen as Maya or disloyal.

We were of a generation of BK that made attempts to discuss problems in the yugya. It was a new thing, and was not looked upon well by the Seniors, dismissed more as a "Brothers' Maya" or little rebellion. I don't remember it going as far as being deeply honest about personal issues ... I suppose the nearest to that was kept to confessionals with the Senior Sisters and "Seeking Shrimat”. If you were valuable enough, you were afforded one-on-one time with a Dadi.

I hear now that some countries have psychological support mechanism, eg a sort of BK to BK counselling. I wonder how that works? I kind of see BKism as the opposite of therapy. To me, it's more about maintaining a conforming delusion and repression, 'not discussing'.

Most BKism was all just about keeping up a front and making up fairy stories in an attempt to sustain "The Knoweldge", eg quasi-scientific fantasies were just about allowed, tolerated ... but, of course, service, service, service was what the truly faithful did, to keep us so busy and so tired that we could not think.

That, and baking bread because at the time machine-made bread was not acceptable, and we did not have an army of lower caste "chapati rollers" servicing us like the Seniors do ... forget about the delights of non-BK artisan-made sourdoughs!
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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post21 May 2019

I surely do recall that lokik business was not to be discussed in the center, though funds from such business activities were used to support service. I do know that some handsome BK bhais can be in for rough sailing when interacting with Sisters, including centers-in-charge. When the Sisters cannot get their way by sleeping with the targeted Brother, they usually will become psychologic dominatrices against such Brothers. Some Brothers will give in others will simply walk away and may be have a productive affair with a lady outside of Gyan.
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oldbk

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post23 May 2019

vlakshmi wrote:Hi GuptaRati 6666 & Pink Panther,

If you feel that my presence disturbs your peace, I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I value peace more.
@vlakshmi

@oldbk to @vlakshmi
While, your presence doesn't distract, I would recommend that you take a break from your rantings. Spend more time in introspection, "churn the Murli", Realize that, just reading Murli and spitting is not Knowledge. It requires churning and self-introspection. And then, come back here to share your experience and progress.

We will continue to send our positive vibes for you, getting clarity in your path.


Looks like @vlakshmi has finally taken the needed break as suggested. Wish this Soul the best, hope to see a transformation after deep introspection !
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ex-l

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post23 May 2019

GuptaRati 6666 wrote:When the Sisters cannot get their way by sleeping with the targeted Brother, they usually will become psychologic dominatrices against such Brothers.

Instead of stating "usually", for which we have anecdotal evidence but no widespread data, I might have raise the possibility as a question based on our general understanding of psychology for example something like, "Is the psychologic dominance of males carrying out by many BK female leaders, due to displacements caused by unfulfilled sexual attractions?".

It's something I've not considered before. In other influential cases, such as Dadi Janki's, one might fairly question whether it was born of their own personally traumatic bad experiences, eg the effects of loveless, unattractice and unsuitable arranged marriages that open the doorway to her falling in love with Lekhraj Kirpalani instead.
vlakshmi wrote:I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I value peace more.
oldbk wrote:Looks like @vlakshmi has finally taken the needed break as suggested. Wish this Soul the best, hope to see a transformation after deep introspection !

Value "peace" more than what?
[quotes="oldbk"]Looks like @vlakshmi has finally taken the needed break as suggested. Wish this Soul the best, hope to see a transformation after deep introspection ![/quote]
I thought what they really meant was, "I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I cannot win here ... because my arguments are weak and I am making me look bad" or something. I thought that comment was a little conceited or barded, like saying, "I am peaceful and you are all not", or redefining "peace" to mean the usual 'accepting and conforming to BKism' as if it was the only way to find peace.

Quite frankly, their unwillingness to give straight answers to simple questions, or their inability to say "I don't know", was insulting.

Typical of the BKs "Masters of the Ocean of Supreme Knowledge", but insulting all the same.
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oldbk

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post23 May 2019

vlakshmi wrote:Hi GuptaRati 6666 & Pink Panther,

I am saying goodbye to you all of you because I value peace more.

I see this as a defensive mechanism, understandable when the initial reaction is to reject/deny.

Slowly, as the experience matures, the willingness to open up and accept should happen. Along with that the realization, people here are not trying to knock down anyone else for their beliefs or otherwise BUT only to get them to look at the "other side of the coin" and make an informed judgement with an open mind.
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GuptaRati 6666

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post25 May 2019

Ex-I,

it's a great question, which has as it's source a psycho-social problem, which the BKs need to address, but have always swept under their rugs. It is a question an ethnographer can answer by conducted a study of BK culture. I would tell my students that the dojo king or queen, would not always be the one who will win the street fight, self defense battle, or combat under field conditions. It is nice to preach and teach flowery philosophy; it's quite another kettle of fish to apply successfully and with clear conscience the BK teachings.

We all know that in the BK culture there are a few individuals who are kind souls and very smart and then there are those who are ostentatious and wish to show to x-BKs, pseudo-intellectual insights, by showing they are gifted in abstract thinking when we live in the era when Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligence is gaining more traction.

Their writing about fantastic numerical variables fro BKism will not help in the advancement of any soul, including themselves.
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Pink Panther

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Re: My Story (flirting fishing and sub-centre abuse)

Post26 May 2019

GuptaRati 6666 wrote: I would tell my students that the dojo king or queen, would not always be the one who will win the street fight, self defense battle, or combat under field conditions. It is nice to preach and teach flowery philosophy; it's quite another kettle of fish to apply successfully ...

This reminds me of an episode of a TV comedy series called 'Help' starring Paul Whitehouse and Chris Langham. Chris Langham is a psychologist. Paul Whitehouse plays many different characters who are the patients. One of them is is an old working class widower grieving for his dead wife.

During one session, a husband and wife burst in interrupting the session. They’ve both patients of his, trying to resolve marital problems. This couple are attractive, wealthy, middle aged (played by other actors, not PW who is playing the old man).

The psychologist tries to get them to leave, then, when they won’t, he tries to reason with them and answer their questions with cliches hoping that’d get them to leave etc. The couple keep interrupting, criticising him because what he has counselled them seems to be have been counterproductive, caused more trouble for them.

The old man then starts to share his wisdom based on his long marriage. The psychologist tries to stop him, saying its not appropriate, but the couple like what the old man has to say, so he continues for quite a long time sharing how his marriage survived many ups and downs over many years. The couple take it in, and leave, seemingly very much in love again and promising to work to make it better.

BKs tend to be full of learnt cliches, they go through the motions and pretend they have all the answers to everyone’s issues but most of them either have no relevant experience (like virgin & celibate Catholic priests advising couples about marriage and raising families) or the wrong kind of very limited experience - which is why, to the naive, Gyan sounds like it might be universally applicable but it really only suits a certain kind of needy mindset.

Some excerpts from Help here - (Vlakshmi might enjoy the sketch called 'The Mathematician')

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... is+langham
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