The Brahmakumaris' adoption of Bhakti rituals

I write from a non-Indian viewpoint.

So, a bit of a shock to find out that God is not Indian?, what next, the sky is actually green and the sea pink.

There is one thing that I have never been comfortable with (well, you know how it is, everything BK is the truth and perfect), and that is being called a double foreigner. It sounds like that old Victorian English of Brahma's. But however you dress it up, it sounds racist. I am the child of God, and my spiritual Father is the Father of all souls, so tell me, what on earth has that got to do with being of a certain nationality/ body type? What gives people the right to impose this nonsense upon others? In God's name?

The fact is, many non-Indian BKs, ex-BKs in particular, have had enough of the Indian sect thing, and Gurus. If you want to annoy me, sell me an Indian cult/sect or guru. PBKs? you are model 2 BKs and are no doubt finding that there is not a constant stream of "Westerners" (another spurious label) heading your way because there is apparently little difference between yourselves and the BKs. I don't care if you have Shiva or not. We can contact Shiva any time. We non-Indians are not as interested or obsessed with Gurus. In the West, the "Guru" is shown little respect and so anything which remotely resembles punting your "Guru""cult" or "sect" in someones face is unacceptable, even if you have Shiva.

Anyway, what has Shiva ever done for me? Probably more than I realise, otherwise it is not enough to have me jumping on any Indian cult bandwagon. But then, Shiva has never punted an Indian cult or guru in my face. Anyway, two lives - maybe - of this and all I get is Indian cults and Gurus in my face. In short, we have grown out of the guru thing and it is patronising to try to sell something to someone, something which they have just let go of. So India, make sure that you are as advanced as you think and are not lost in the dark ages of cults and Gurus because we are moving on now.

If I am not making myself clear, then ... I personally am sick of people shoving gurus Brahma and Dixit on to me. I want nothing to do with any of them. It is the past, we are moving on now, forward. Not just in the present but it has never ever been part of the teachings or practise to worship a guru, and that includes God Father Shiva. Is Shiva even an Indian word? Are you sure? Is the Supreme Soul really an Indian, a BK, a Brahmin? The answer is NO!

Shoving God off the ball again, pushing God out of the universal position/role? The very soul who is supposed to be promoted, or is there a lie lying dormant waiting to take birth in the form of some revelation. Let us get all the lies cleared up and out of the way then we may all move forward, are you listening up there?

But hold on, there is confusion in the Brahmin family (NEVER) with regards to God's whereabouts and current role ... yet Shankar is part of BK teachings. Shankar has always been left out of BK teachings, deliberately. We deserve better than this, however, personally, I am willing to be lied to and allow others to walk all over me, out of humility and putting others forward of course. Well the worm has turned, you have been warned.

Now, is that God my spiritual Father or God the guru? or God the Brahmin or Indian (even)? If you are of an Indian background and are full of pride that God landed on your patch, consider that a third faction could emerge out of Brahmin chaos and Indians with cults and gurus may find yourselves with the ball at your feet, then realise that it is a ball which one of the spectators have thrown on to the pitch but your head was down, focussed on local things and so missed the bigger picture.

So come on, give me your best shot, sell me your Indian cults and gurus, come on, I am here in this thread, vulnerable, insecure and looking for understanding, blind. Come and sell me your Brahma/Dixit guru's, and their respective cults ... or indeed God as a guru, if you have time to consider God over these other gurus that is.

Did I mention getting a role for yourself and keeping all others out in case they steal MY role, something which is impossible anyway. This is reflected in the BKs fear of the truth, and of course in the fact that Arjun is not at all interested in unity and harmony within the greater Brahmin family. (Someone informed me of this). So come on, sell me your wares. Just as it is impossible to steal my spiritual Father and make that one your own to do with what you wish for personal benefit, God is only on your side when you are on God's side, or AT God's side, and there is absolutely nothing Indian or Brahmin about that.

Indeed, there should never be any need for anyone to mention the names of these gurus outwith this thread, so, whenever you feel the urge to thrust your guru on to others, especially upon those who have grown to dislike guru worship, you can do it in this thread. Never again will we hear the name Brahma or Dixit then other than in this thread about gurus, as I have said, here I am, sell me your Indian cult/ sect/ Guru. Far from reacting, it may well be that some of us have been very tollerant. You know, I could really do with a guru to worship right now, it is just what I am looking for.

How long will it be before "double foreigners" stop accepting everything BK simply because it has to be "the truth", it has to be the only way, it has to be Indian even? Well I am not, so stuff your gurus, it is completely and utterly against the teachings. You are all going to have to justify this nonsense now, or shut the fakir up. Double foreigner? or simply racism? and remember, we are creating one world based on transparency. The last Murli which was spoken is so transparent only a few received it.

And Dadi Janki is not a guru, she is my spiritual Brother, or at least that is the greatest compliment I could ever pay that soul. And, of course, Shiva is also my spiritual Brother. Shiva is a soul playing a role. While the BKs will be quick to take the credit for creating souls with understanding, in my experience it has all come from beyond. There is no reason therefore for anyone to get an ego about what God is doing.

I wish I had a Guru and Indian cult to mince my head. I need it like I need a hole in my head. Of course, cults and Gurus can be found everywhere you go and not just India. So come on, sell me your guru, I want it, I need the fix badly. It is just what I need after years, lives even, of BK bull.

This is reflected in the BKs fear of the truth, and of course in the fact that Arjun is not at all interested in unity and harmony within the greater Brahmin family. (Someone informed me of this).

Can you clarify what you mean here? Do you mean Arjun from the PBKs? Who has been saying what?

I ask because one of the funniest thing I have heard is that the BKWSU is blaming the PBKs for this forum! In my experience alone, the BKWSU has been blaming and accusing the PBKs for one ill or another for over 25 years. That means that under the "pure", holy facade of theirs, a culture of blame and shame has festered for over 25 years ... how spiritual is that!?!

Then, of course, you have BK Mk III in the case of the Vishnu Party who seem to me to be a bad copy of the PBK experience. Another mini-guru or two copying the PBK's hardships and travails and using the model to promote their pet theories to an even smaller sub-set, e.g. lost teachings, suppression by the Dadis, The Real Truth and The Real Guru ... a whole more hidden stuff and more Indianism. No smoke ... no fire ...

the BKWSU, by which I really mean its leaders, needs therapy to deal with its/their mental issues but it/they too hard headed and arrogant to admit it that they have any.

I ask because one of the funniest thing I have heard is that the BKWSU is blaming the PBKs for this forum! In my experience alone, the BKWSU has been blaming and accusing the PBKs for one ill or another for over 25 years. That means that under the "pure", holy facade of theirs, a culture of blame and shame has festered for over 25 years ... how spiritual is that!?!

When Karma comes to bite their own ass why do they have to blame others ...

Because Destruction hasn't come as they predicted, all this is coming out of the woodwork, which I am sure they thought never would.

Maybe Shiva is no fool after all

There is one thing that I have never been comfortable with (well, you know how it is, everything BK is the truth and perfect), and that is being called a double foreigner. It sounds like that old Victorian English of Brahma's. But however you dress it up, it sounds racist. I am the child of God, and my spiritual Father is the Father of all souls, so tell me, what on earth has that got to do with being of a certain nationality/ body type? What gives people the right to impose this nonsense upon others? In God's name?

I don't know how the use of the term 'double foreigners' originated among the BKs, but probably they mean to say one who does not belong to this country, i.e. India as well as this world (i.e. one who belongs to the Soul World). It might also have originated after the meetings of Avyakt BapDada with the BKs from foreign countries began, when BapDada said that the Father also comes as a videshi, i.e. a foreigner, i.e. from another world. The clarification of this term is given in some other way by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit).

I agree that all the souls are children of God irrespective of their nationality. If you find the term racist, I would suggest to the BKs to consider withdrawing the term and use some other words to refers to the BKs from foreign countries, for e.g. 'BKs from ... country'. But I am sure that when ShivBaba speaks to his children he does not observe them as Indians or foreigners but only as souls.

If you want to annoy me, sell me an Indian cult/sect or guru. PBKs? you are model 2 BKs and are no doubt finding that there is not a constant stream of "Westerners" (another spurious label) heading your way because there is apparently little difference between yourselves and the BKs.

We PBKs are not here to sell our knowledge or our spiritual Father to you. We are only giving information about the PBKs/Advanced Knowledge/new corporeal role of ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit)/those aspects of Murlis and Avyakt Vanis, which were hidden by the BKs. True spiritual knowledge cannot be sold at all. It can only be taught by setting examples. PBKs, under the guidance of ShivBaba had never been hungry of attracting new members (even from India), leave alone the 'hunger' for Westerners. That is the reason why PBKs have never organized any public programme to give publicity to the Advanced Knowledge. It is only through the cheap and free medium of internet that many souls from outside India have come to know about the PBKs.

I have never enquired from any of the member of this forum or the xbkchat forum on my own whether they have visited or are interested in visiting the PBK gitapathshala/mini-Madhubans. It might be only after a long friendship with any member that I would have invited anyone to come to India. Most of the information that the PBKs give on this forum is in response to the querries of other members. If you think that asking querries and answering them is an indication of blindfaith in cults/gurus, it is your sweet will.

I would like to repeat that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is not our guru but our spiritual Father through whom we meet and listen to ShivBaba. If you see any of the VCD* (especially the Discussio CDs) you would yourself know if Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is acting like any so-called guru or not. There is no place for Bhakti/rituals of any kind in the AIVV, not even the subtle form of Bhakti that the BKs practice.

Did I mention getting a role for yourself and keeping all others out in case they steal MY role, something which is impossible anyway. This is reflected in the BKs fear of the truth, and of course in the fact that Arjun is not at all interested in unity and harmony within the greater Brahmin family. (Someone informed me of this). So come on, sell me your wares.

I would not reply to the personal comment because I do not want to defend myself. I know that many BKs may be angry with me for many of the things that I write on this forum. The violation of Shrimat by the BKs which is being pointed out at some places in this forum by the PBKs is not aimed to tarnish the image of the BKs but to prompt the BKs as well as the PBKs to introspect. It does not mean that all the PBKs are holy cows. There are a lot of shortcomings in the PBKs including me. The violation of Shrimat by BKs is also pointed out so that the PBKs do not repeat the same mistakes and do not become 'model 2 BKs' to use your own words. If anyone is hurt by my words on this forum, I seek pardon and I would prefer to withdraw myself from this forum or at least limit myself to the PBKs section, as you wish.

Never again will we hear the name Brahma or Dixit then other than in this thread about gurus, as I have said, here I am, sell me your Indian cult/ sect/ Guru.

PBKs are using the word 'Baba Virendra Dev Dixit' only under instuctions from the Admin. of this forum because the term ShivBaba or Baba is used by all including BKs, ex-BKs, ex-PBKs, etc. It is only to remove confusion that we are using the above name.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

I ask because one of the funniest thing I have heard is that the BKWSU is blaming the PBKs for this forum! In my experience alone, the BKWSU has been blaming and accusing the PBKs for one ill or another for over 25 years. That means that under the "pure", holy facade of theirs, a culture of blame and shame has festered for over 25 years ... how spiritual is that!?!

I would like to clarify to the BKs that PBKs have no hand in the creation of this forum. We PBKs are writing on this forum only because the Admin of this forum and other members have been kind enough to allow us to write.

I would also like to clarify that I am not an official spokesperson of the PBKs and write here as an individual although I also post a lot of information that has been approved by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit), most of which is already circulated to the PBKs through emails.

I would also like to request other PBKs to post their views as other members may feel that either I am trying to dominate over other PBKs or that I have become too boring . May be you could bring more cheers to Brother Sparkal.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

We PBKs are not here to sell our knowledge or our spiritual Father to you.

I can vouch for what Arjun says here. There has never been any attempt to "sell" me PBK knowledge.

I would prefer to withdraw myself from this forum or at least limit myself to the PBKs section, as you wish.

It will be a great loss to this forum if you withdraw from it, Arjun. I hope you will stay and continue to post on all the sections. I have found, over time, that your posts are informative and prudent. You give your own point of view, as we all do, and you answer questions openly. I have not seen any examples of you being "pushy" or "hard sell". Stay with us.

I would like to clarify to the BKs that PBKs have no hand in the creation of this forum. We PBKs are writing on this forum only because the Admin. of this forum and other members have been kind enough to allow us to write.

It is true that PBKs are allowed and encouraged to post because of a strong voice from some in the ex-BK contingency, who are interested in finding truth and promoting freedom of speech without the shackles of BKeaucracy. Of course the Admin has listened to that voice and made it a reality.

This forum actually encourages all BK/PBK and splinter groups to make themselves heard, with the unwritten criteria that insubstantial claims and PR whitewash will be scrutnized and the dirty washing hung out to dry.

Coming here is not like going to your Aunties!

Dear Proy and John,
Thanks for your kind words. I would respect your wishes.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Apologies for in my hurry to express some thoughts I have not actually take the time to read all of the posts on this thread so i know that i may possibly offend someone.

Arjun Bhai I echo what at least one poster has said regarding the positive manner in which you conduct yourself in the forum. So the decision on whether to stay or go is yours but it is a matter of record in my mind at least that you facilitate communication within and without the organisation to which you have a spiritual allegiance and I find this to be of great value to the forum and a shining example to the BKWSU (imho of course).

Yesterday I had a long chat with myself in my little corner of this forum. It was a monologue, some might say diatribe, in which I find echoes in sections of Sparkal's post; and I confess that i too was in real anguish (still am perhaps) during my writing. Why? Because I had to ask myself whether I really ought to be posting here. Again why?
Because by participating in this forum we remain open to hearing about: Supreme Soul, Drama, 16108, 900000, Golden Age, Silver Age, Copper Age, Iron Age, Confluence Age, Destruction, Dadis, Avyakyt Murli, Sakar Murli, Krishna, Yagya History, Mama, purity, hell, drishti, BKWSU, PBKs, Dharamraj Puri, Ravan, Hell, Heaven, Sita, blah, blah. The list is endless and you and i know that any BKWSU student worthy of the name need not make the slightest effort in rattling that list off. How much more can you add to the list Arjun Bhai? How many Murli's have you heard? How many clarifications you have offered the forum? What if I should be getting as far away from this place as possible rather than tanking myself everyday with as liberal a dose as my posts seems to indicate? Is my being here a sign that the God from the East has already devoured me up in It's insatiable appetite?

Recently I have wanted to run away from the forum because by its very nature participating on it can keep one plugged into that whole stream of consciousness that might well be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth but then again ... what if ... ?

My rants tend to be despairing heartfelt ones as well. At the same time I recognise that this Godly knowledge has made some positive differences in my life but along with it has come much more than I bargained for.

So, can you possibly see Arjun Bhai how sparkal might be feeling? Can you see how important it is that the God any organisation professes to feed the masses is indeed THE GOD? Can you see how when we speak so authoritatively about things that we CAN NOT KNOW ARE TRUE it might alienate some souls? And I am not denying any soul the right to believe exactly what it wants to believe but I rather Sparkal's forthrighness than meek acceptance. I have observed enough of Sparkal post's to form the opinion that above all else what was being expressed was heart-felt and not maliciously intentioned. I see in Sparkal's post a reminder that this is all a very very high stakes game and if we souls are being led up the garden path by a whole lot of arcane sounding hokey-pokey then all hell will break lose (and I think that this could even happen in Bharat also).

For the time being many of our hell's are private places but there may come a time when the mere utterance of words like this in a public place may see one executed for disturbing the peace. 'Fortunately' this forum provides a space in which we are reminded of our duty of care to our fellow Brother souls and for that mercy I will always salute this place. Both Arjun and Sparkal are obviously very courageous souls and for this I feel grateful to have them in our midst.

Om Shanti.

this is all a very very high stakes game and if we souls are being led up the garden path

In this world I feel everything is exactly like this, whether in spiritual world or material world. Everything is at stake. As in other threads, do we believe what the US is getting itself into, do we believe the Queen wants to have the same buckle as Lekhraj Kirpalani, etc sometimes it would be nice to just simply sit down with a cup of tea and not think of anything I suppose. Where do these stakes end.

I think any spiritual or material path you take should not be of any stress, if you don't enjoy it then it is time to step out of that road and back away from the pack. However, we cannot always just sit by like the hare and watch the tortoise stroll by, otherwise you will just get left behind. At some point you'll have to get back on that road.

Sparkal has made some valid points in his understanding and to share that is actually a plus for us all, rather than see that as an attack to anyone or anything in particular, because it's his soul that's going through that and not anyone of us. Although some of us could relate to it, some of us could be offended by it. But it does not need to be even thought so deeply as such. I think freedom and freedom in thinking is the gateway to your personal truth, I agree with Abrahma Kumar, anyone who expresses themselves in any form in this forum is a couragous soul. And it is sometimes the courage of others which also gives me that understanding and makes me more courageous too, which I see as a positive step in learning.

Well, I still hope sparkal comes back here and answers the reason for his direct comments are arjun and the PBKs ... can I ask another question, is it another form of chauvinisn that Westerners are challenged by the fact that a "God" has chosen Hindu and Hinduism as his language, teaching metaphor and country of birth?

Because I had to ask myself whether I really ought to be posting here. Again why? Because by participating in this forum we remain open to hearing about: Supreme Soul, Drama, 16108, 900000, Golden Age, Silver Age, Copper Age, Iron Age, Confluence Age, Destruction, Dadis, Avyakyt Murli, Sakar Murli, Krishna, Yagya History, Mama, purity, hell, drishti, BKWSU, PBKs, Dharamraj Puri, Ravan, Hell, Heaven, Sita, blah, blah. The list is endless ...

Very valid statement. I think these forums (I was part of the XBKChat forum before this) have a purpose in questioning, ex-ing and ex- BK's life to exorcise all that is BKWSU. They are a therapy where there is no other therapy for us. No one else can really sit and listen and understand. I reckon mosts BKs could take apart most therapist and without detailed knowledge, a therapist would not have a clue what a BK was going on about.

But there is also a time to go away as well. As you say, even this near proximity keeps you bound and connected in some way.

For me personally, it is now all about walking back into the lions' dens or going to embrace the burning iron pillar, to use two Biblical metaphors, to defeat its effects entirely within me and, in a sense, to do service to others that are walking the same path as me. Ex-ing is not easy. The social and mental programming, the doubts, the psychic connections are very deep. It has been very good for me to see and smell the sewers of the BKWSU time and time again to confirm that i have not done the wrong thing by refusing it. How long I will be able to stick playing a sanitary engineer to its blocked pipes, I do not know!

It is therapy to be able to disgorge it all ... and therapy to be able to encourage and see others disgorge it all. It may even be good karma to help the BKWSU unblock their pipes.

Well, I still hope sparkal comes back here and answers the reason for his direct comments are arjun and the PBKs ... can I ask another question, is it another form of chauvinisn that Westerners are challenged by the fact that a "God" has chosen Hindu and Hinduism as his language, teaching metaphor and country of birth?

I agree I think in this case it would be good if Sparkal cleared this up, to make comments on another forum member, just on hearsay or loose comment from somewhere and present it as a known thing, is that right to do ... ?

Recently, I made the 'mistake' of citing a video found on the www as BKWSU originated simply because it had been posted with an associated link to the BKWSU headquarters site in Madhuban. I felt so bad when I was reminded in the forum that there was a possibility that the connection I had made was not actually evidenced; and also disappointed in myself for such an oversight that could possibly open the forum up to accusations of being a place where unsubstantiated rumours adverse to the BKWSU were commonplace. But with time I hope I can recover from that little blip and ensure that I exercise a bit more care in future. We might hope that as long as we stay open to each other we can continue to co-exist in this cyberspace.

I have always taken the 'double-foreign' references in the BKWSU Murli and other forms of communication to indicate an embodied soul whose home is always the Soul World but who has taken this physical birth in temporary domicile away from Bharat (Bharat being the first foreign land that the soul may find itself forming 'homely' association with).

Maybe I am the type of soul who always tries to wriggle away from the heat - perhaps injuring myself from the potential barbs and/or arrows that one could get stuck with in the spiritual world we live in - but that way of looking at things serves to keep me aware that Bharat itself is of lesser significance in terms of the soul's connection to it's home. So that as an embodied soul I can view the entire earthly plane as a so-called foreign land (is that the consciousness of a Western chauvinist?). Like Bansy expressed, I see all of this as a positive step. I would rather keep engaged with the forum (for now at least) than go away and brood.

I don't want to second-guess Sparkal's entire demeanor from the post that we are referring to but again I would like to hope that as long as we stay open to each other we can continue to co-exist in this cyberspace. The beauty is that none of us seems so inhibited over this as to stay nothing - which strikes me as being healthy if conducted in an appropriate manner. Maybe Sparkal will explain the 'unity' angle of his post, maybe not, but for sure we are all taught in the BK world: Don't give sorrow, Don't take sorrow. I treat the two aspects with equal degree of importance.

There is an aspect of Bharat as mentioned within Sparkal's post that comes to mind based on references to it (Bharat) as encountered in the BKWSU Murli. I refer to the way that the word seems to flip/flop between either a reference to the Indian Sub-continent or the entire world. Typically I accept the Bharat flip/flop tendency with whatever focus the Murli presents it. But does this lead to clarity or the very opposite?

And now I will flip/flop so excuse me: In my part of the world an observation has been made along these lines, "Does the Yagya exhibit greater concern and/or encourage donations of 'financial or other disaster relief' from it's students in aid of Bharat and it's 'geo-political' neighbors more so than it does for other 'beleaguered' 'foreign lands'? Should it remain clear of these things and leave it as a matter of personal conscience? Or is it right and fitting that such an world renowned body step-up to the plate in these instances thus ensuring that it is seen on the world stage to be doing something charitable?

Or are such questions once again reflective of

another form of chauvinisn that Westerners are challenged by the fact that a "God" has chosen Hindu and Hinduism as his language, teaching metaphor and country of birth?

All-in-all I enjoyed the debate that sparkal's post initiated and I remain open to all feedback - do i mean proof? - of the above quoted assertion. And if it not possible to prove that final quote shouldn't ALL souls proceed with care unless they are nonetheless convinced of course. Maybe I ask too many questions?

Ah well.

Om Shanti

In my part of the world an observation has been made along these lines, "Does the Yagya exhibit greater concern and/or encourage donations of 'financial or other disaster relief' from it's students in aid of Bharat and it's 'geo-political' neighbors more so than it does for other 'beleaguered' 'foreign lands'? Should it remain clear of these things and leave it as a matter of personal conscience? Or is it right and fitting that such an world renowned body step-up to the plate in these instances thus ensuring that it is seen on the world stage to be doing something charitable?Or are such questions once again reflective of

another form of chauvinisn that Westerners are challenged by the fact that a "God" has chosen Hindu and Hinduism as his language, teaching metaphor and country of birth?

The first point above is interesting to hear. What is the current state of thought on the matter?

(The following is work in progress ... ) Inevitably, before one can see what objective truth lies within the BKWSU and its satellite sects, one would have to put on Hindu, India and Asian filtering glasses to remove all extraneous influences. To make a personal disclosure, I look at BK Gyan, lifestyle and the BKWSU as about a 95% Lekhraj Kirpalani, Hindi/Sindhi cultural mix and 5% some supernatural channelled being. I don't suppose that the 5% channelled being influence is a Hindu spirit at all nor does it actually speak Hindu, care about Hindu/Vedic roots etc ... it is merely trying to work some good within its incarnate environment through the given material, or medium.

I came into Gyan when the BKWSU reeked of Hinduism and was dominated by Hindus that could not see it, recognize it within themselves and could not give a damn or care to question this because THEY were most comfortable in Hinduism anyway. Anyone that pushed at the borders of its Hinduism were mostly repelled and suppressed but a slow and gradually opening up was taking place for the sake of service, a realisation that the rest of the world had to be marketed to in a different manner and because it was a bit of a laugh and some fresh air.

So, basically, I empathize with Sparkal's general gist. (I just don't think that it ought to have been personally targeted because I do not think that the individual in question is in anyway guilty of the crime he is accused off. Rather the opposite). It would be brave but essential to make an analysis of the India state of consciousness ... and the Westerner ... to remove both filters to see any objective truth or value within t he teachings. Of course, both brushes ... India and Western ... are too broad and would need refining BUT I think they are starting points.

I think the BKWSU is without any doubt, at core, a Hindu cult. (I am not entirely sure that this was the intent of the channelled being ... the visions etc at the beginning I just take to be reflections of Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Sindhis' mental state). I think that the Hindu cult at the core was a little surprised and entertained by all the Westerners romantically attracted to the exoticism of its Indianism. I can see what Sparkal is saying about the PBKs not having gone through its Westernization phase as the BKWSU has done and that the PBKs are not aware of any such Hinduism because to them they are comfortable with it. This East-West mix/fusion/discomfort/mutual influence has been part of the BKWSU experience since the late 70s.

I also never saw "Enlightenment" as a Hindu pursuit although the Hindus seem to claim it as their own, loathed the lower and middle class Hinduism with the BKWSU and especially the Westerners that adopted it as part of The Truth. You know the type, the ones that like to dress up as Hindus, learn to shake their head and make those flippant hand gestures, and even adopted a Hindi accent.

I find the negative elements of the Indianism I have met as a combination of spineless, moral slipperiness with a hardheadedness that mask turgid childishness and mental aggression, a chauvinist superiority complex inbued with rigid class structure to match the worst of the West's and more. The BKWSU has also, in my opinion, ditched one of the strengths of Indianism, its flexibility and religious pluralism. I strongly recognize and appreciate the very Western values of coolness, style and objectivity of thought, scientific rigor and pragmatism as virtues born within humanity and not from "God" Shiva.

I ask myself; how much am I subject to my own prejudices rather than Platonic objectivity? What value does any of this have when the goal is only to immerse one's mind in the channelled being anyway rather than to become involved in the consciously moral and philosophical synthesis of East and West?

• And how does the BKWSU come to terms with Western virtues or intelligence so obviously not born of itself?

My answer would be that the Channelled Beings and the organization appear to superficially adopts and synthesizes them as a language for the same old Hinduism, repackages them with added Indian flavouring in the same old dirty wrappers it used last week, missing the point of their sharp freshness and reducing them in lustre. Indeed, through its historical involvement with humanity the main channelled entity seems to have been adopting, synthesizing and feeding off new influences and language, as and when it was presented by them, become spiritually fatter, wilier and more cunning like any other Hindu guru.

In all this East West debate, I also flag up that 70 years after it inception and 20 to 30 years after the predicted End of the World, neither the BKWSU nor the PBK ... by which we have to say Shiva as a whole ... have also not made any in roads whatsoever into the frame of mind carried by 30% of the World population in China and SE Asia and probably 50% of the World population that carries indigenous, tribal, shamanistic, aministic beliefs. As the cult of BKWSU continues to revel in its comfortable Bharat and its Hinduism, that does not give it much time to inspire, transform or serve them.

Which brings this back to your statement about non-India charity and aid. Of course, in my opinion, the BKWSU are just doing it to succour and placate those with the power and influence they depend on or crave in India now they are so visible in the public eye. I do not suspect that is it out of their heart at all.

We discussed racism within the BKWSU and the experience of those of African origin in XBKchat. What would be a good test of the Indian-ism within the BKWSU would be to suggest they go out and gave aid and served black people ... an interesting aside as the PBKs claim this is where the first real service will or is taking place. The BKWSU position used to be that any soul coming to Gyan would obviously have been an Indian in their last birth and so happy to adopt/manifest Indian sanskars.

We might hope that as long as we stay open to each other we can continue to co-exist in this cyberspace.

I hope so too, it is a big enough space. Room for Sparkal's views as well as anyone's, and I hope Sparkal will continue to post here. I can see his viewpoint, but I do not like the hearsay personal accusations.

Sparkal has made some valid points in his understanding and to share that is actually a plus for us all, rather than see that as an attack to anyone or anything in particular, because it's his soul that's going through that and not anyone of us. Although some of us could relate to it, some of us could be offended by it. ... anyone who expresses themselves in any form in this forum is a couragous soul. And it is sometimes the courage of others which also gives me that understanding and makes me more courageous too, which I see as a positive step in learning.

Very well put, Bansy, I agree, it takes courage to be open, and mistakes will be made. Tolerance of these mistakes is the key.

So, basically, I empathize with Sparkal's general gist. (I just don't think that it ought to have been personally targeted because I do not think that the individual in question is in anyway guilty of the crime he is accused off. Rather the opposite).

Exactly the opposite, I would say. He is trying his best to unite the "Family".

You know the type, the ones that like to dress up as Hindus, learn to shake their head and make those flippant hand gestures, and even adopted a Hindi accent.

I know the type too well, I used to have more than a little tendency that way myself. Never got the Hindi accent though.

Which brings this back to your statement about non-India charity and aid. Of course, in my opinion, the BKWSU are just doing it to succour and placate those with the power and influence they depend on or crave in India now they are so visible in the public eye. I do not suspect that is it out of their heart at all.

I have to agree with this opinion. I think their reasons are cold and calculated.