PBK Party's perspective about the Subtle Region.

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new world

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PBK Party's perspective about the Subtle Region.

Post18 Jul 2007

PBKs believe that the whole World Drama takes place in the corporeal world & that the Subtle Region does not exist beyond the corporeal world & Brahmapuri, Vishnupuri, Shankarpuri are just symbolic to represent the intellectual levels of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively.

But on the basis of the Murli statement "Sukshmawatanwaasi Brahma (Brahma in Subtle Region) is not called as Prajapita", PBKs argue that as Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) is not present here in the corporeal world & as he has become Sukshmawatanwaasi (residential of the Subtle Region), he cannot be called as Prajapita. Now if the Subtle Region is just symbolic & it does not exist, then how ... how Brahma became Sukshmawatanwaasi? If really the Subtle Region does not exist, then the word 'Sukshmawatanwaasi' is not logical.

Due to these contradictory perspectives about Subtle Region, it's very difficult to understand PBK concept of the Subtle Region.
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new world

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Incorporeal, subtle & corporeal

Post19 Jul 2007

Does Subtle Region really exist or is it just a concept - a symbol to represent intellectual leval? A great puzzle!!

It's argued that the segments of Subtle Region, i.e BrahmaPuri, VishnuPuri & ShankarPuri are just symbolic to denote subtle intellectual levels of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively. Now I cannot understand if the Subtle Region symbolizes subtle intellectual stage, then why the Incorporeal World (Paramdham) is not viewed as symbol to represent incorporeal stage of the intellect (especially of God)? And why the Corporeal World is not viewed as a symbol to represent body-conscious intellect?

In other words, if Subtle Region is a symbol & not a reality, then why the Incorporeal World & the Corporeal World are viewed as reality? If the Incorporeal World & the Corporeal World have real existence then logically we have to accept that the Subtle Region should have to be in existence.

Again if the subtle body exists (that of angels & ghosts), then why to reject the existence of the Subtle Region? The subtle body exists but the Subtle Region does not exist - is that logical ... ?
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ex-l

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Post19 Jul 2007

Adding to which, the BKs generally believe that the Subtle Regions and the "world of ghosts" are two different worlds and that the Subtle Regions have only existed since ... when exactly, no one knows? Sometime after "Shiva incarnation"

Those that have seen the spirit worlds, which includes elements of Hinduism, Buddhism, widely spread indigenous religious and the Western Occult all reported that there are many, many world in the "ghost world", i.e. pre-Subtle Regions.
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arjun

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Post20 Jul 2007

Dear new_world Bhai,

Omshanti. In the Sakar Murlis, there are points to support both views. Some Murlis say that the Subtle Region does not exist and some Murlis say that although the Subtle Region exists, it is only for the Confluence Age. But the division of the Subtle Region into the abode of Brahm, Vishnu and Shankar is only symbolic -to represent the stages of Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar.

As per the Advanced Knowledge (and even basic BK knowledge as mentioned in Avyakt Vanis) all the Three Worlds also represent the corporeal, subtle and incorporeal stages of the soul during the Confluence Age.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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paulkershaw

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Re: Incorporeal, subtle & corporeal

Post21 Jul 2007

new_world wrote:Does Subtle Region really exist or is it just a concept - a symbol to represent intellectual leval? A great puzzle!!

I feel that the BK teachings of the Subtle Regions are again just something in some-one's memory bank. (Remembrance can also perhaps mean 'memory' ...?)

In 'New Age' spirituality the earth is seen to be in 3rd dimension (or 3rd dimensional reality or 3rd dimension consciousness). ie there are only 3 dimesnions of experience.

The 3rd Dimension contains 3 main processes namely; physical life yes, but also ego and fear.

I feel that the BK Subtle Region (which are said to contain 3 seperate experiences ...) teachings offered by th BK only reflect part of something bigger; and ths is why so much emphasis is placed on overcoming ego, i.e the desire is to remove the 3rd dimension consciousness (or ego reality) and then 'as a BK' one can ascend into the Golden Age (or 5th Dimensional consciousness which in itself does not contain any ego or fear and cannot hold anyone or any being containing ego or fear) ... so to me the BK teachings are only a small part of a bigger concept ...
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Post15 Sep 2007

arjun wrote:In the Sakar Murlis, there are points to support both views. Some Murlis say that the Subtle Region does not exist and some Murlis say that although the Subtle Region exists, it is only for the Confluence Age.

My Arjunbhai,

1) these both point of views goes in contrast with each other.
    a) If (as mentioned in the first point of view) the Subtle Region really does not exist, then its temporary existance in the Confluence Age couldn't logically be accepted &
    b) if the Subtle Region really exists, then what's problem to accept that it exists also in other Ages (like Silver Age, Copper Age etc) other than the Confluence Age?
2) As the Corporeal World is composed of 5 elements - earth, water, air, fire & sky,
    a) then of which component elements is the Subtle Region made of???
    b) Again if during the whole broad drama, the Subtle Region exists ONLY in the Confluence Age, then what happens to the component elements of the Subtle Region after completion of the Confluence Age? As nothing may be created or be destroyed, then into which elements (like earth, water etc) does the elements of the Subtle Region get converted?
    c) in other words, where does the Subtle Region get merged after the Confluence Age? - In the Paramdham? Or in the Corporeal World?
But the division of the Subtle Region into the abode of Brahm, Vishnu and Shankar is only symbolic -to represent the stages of Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar.

1) Every existent entity has it's own divions, parts or strata. Then why don't you accept that the Subtle Region has its own divisions or hierarchical strata like the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar?
2) If you accept that the Subtle Region is reality as well as symbolic,
    a) then why not to accept that these three Abodes have real existance as well as they are symbolic?
    b) and why you strongly argue that these three Abodes are just symbolic & do not have real existance?
    c) Is there any quotation from Murlis or Ved-Shashras to support your claim?
As per the Advanced Knowledge (and even basic BK knowledge as mentioned in Avyakt Vanis) all the Three Worlds also represent the corporeal, subtle and incorporeal stages of the soul during the Confluence Age.

1) And as per the Divine Godly knowledge (Shrimat), during the UNLIMITED whole broad drama, as souls pass through the Incorporeal World, the Casual World, the Subtle Region & the Corporeal World, they acquire incorporeal, casual, subtle & corporeal stage respectively.
2) Thus all the worlds mentioned here a) have real existance & b) also represent verious stages (from incorporeal to corporeal), then ... then why not to accept that the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar a) are not only representations of stages of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively, b) but also simultaneously they have real existance ... ?
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new knowledge

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Post17 Sep 2007

arjun wrote:As per the Advanced Knowledge (and even basic BK knowledge as mentioned in Avyakt Vanis) all the Three Worlds also represent the corporeal, subtle and incorporeal stages of the soul during the Confluence Age.

Okay. Everything, which has its own existence, may be intellectually viewed as a symbol to represent something, but everything, which is viewed as a symbol, is not necessarily be viewed as a real fact having its own existence.

I've observed that there is an increasing tendency in BKWSU to view existing entities/objects as symbols, instead of viewing them as real entities/objects.
    1) BKs view all the Three Worlds (incorporeal, subtle & corporeal) as real facts more than interpreting them symbolically. BKs also view Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar as real entities.
    2) PBKs view all these Three Worlds as real facts as well as abstract symbols. But for them, the three Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar are not real entities, but they are just abstract symbols to represent stages of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar respectively.
    3) Our respected forum member Shivsena goes a step ahead. He do not believe in the existance of the Incorporeal World.
Now digits like 1, 2, 3 etc. are nothing more than abstract mathematical concepts & they do not have concrete existance like the sun. But though the sun symbolically represents the enlightened stage of the Father of humanity, who is called as the Sun of Knowledge, the sun also has its own concrete existance. Here I am confused. WHAT'S THE CRITERION TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMETHING UNDER STUDY, WHICH IS VIEWED AS AN ABSTRACT SYMBOL OR CONCEPT, HAS ITS OWN existence OR NOT???

Now I've a question. Arjunbhai, from your reply, it's not clear whether you & PBKs believe in the existence of the Subtle Region or not. But PBKs are 100% sure that the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar are nothing more than abstract symbols & these Abodes don't really exist. Now if the Subtle Region may be a) a real entity & b) symbol to represent subtle state of souls, then why not to accept the existence of the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar as both a) real entities & b) symbols.

And could you submit quotations from Murli, Avyakt Vani or Ved-Shashras to prove that the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar
definitely do not exist??
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arjun

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Post17 Sep 2007

new_knowledge wrote:And could you submit quotations from Murli, Avyakt Vani or Ved-Shashras to prove that the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar definitely do not exist??

Dear Brother,
Omshanti. Here is a quote regarding Subtle Region from one of the latest revised Sakar Murlis published by the BKs :
"Pehley-pehley Brahman varna fir devataa....varnon may aatey hain. Varna toh yahaan hee hain. Sookshmavatan may toh varnon kee baat hee nahee hai. Brahma ko Prajapita kahtey hain. Vishnu ko Prajapita nahee kahengey. Brahma dwara toh adopt kiya jaataa hai. Vishnu kay doh roop Lakshmi-Narayan kay toh bachchey paida hotey hain, jo takht par baithtey hain. Shankar ko bhi Prajapita nahee kahengey. Yah bhi jaantey ho jaisi-jaisi bhaavnaa hai, vaisey-vaisey saakshaatkaar ho jata hai. Baaki vahaan koi sarp aadi kee baat nahee hai. Bail bhi vahaan ho na sakey. Sookshmavatan may toh hai hee devataa. Sookshmavatan may jaatey ho – bageecha, fal aadi dekhtey ho. Kya vahaan bageecha hai? Baba saakshaatkaar karaatey hain. Baaki hai nahee. Buddhi kahti hai vahaan sookshmavatan may jhaad aadi ho na sakey. Yah jaroor saakshaatkaar hota hai. Saakshaatkaar bhi yahaa ka karaayengey. Yah sab hain saakshaatkaar. Isko jaadoogari ka khel kahtey hain. Yah koi gyaan nahee hai. Manushya manushya ko Barrister banaatey hain, vah koi jaadoo nahee kahengey. Vah vidya detey hain. Yah tumhaarey ko manushya say devataa banaatey hain nayee duniya kay liye, isliye jaadoogari kahaa jata hai. Divya drishti kee chaabi Baba kay paas honay kay kaaran unko jaadoogar bhi kahaa jata hai. Vah kahtey hain guru ki kripa hai, moorty say saakshaatkaar hua. Us say toh faaydaa kuch bhi nahee. Yahaan toh mehnat kar swayam vah Lakshmi-Narayan, Sita-Ram ban rahey ho ... Baaki saakshaatkaar aadi kee toh chitchat hai, inki aash nahee rahnee chaahiye. Samajhtey hain ab khud Baap aaya hai, toh saakshaatkaar karaa devey, parantu yah sab hai faaltu. Fir saakshaatkaar na honay say naaumeed ho padhaai chod detey hain." (Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli, dinaank 10.09.07, pg 2&3)

"First of all we come in the Brahmin caste/class, then the deity (class) ... classes. The classes are here only. There is no question of classes in the Subtle Region at all. Brahma is called Prajapita. Vishnu would not be called Prajapita. Adoption is done through Brahma. There are children of the two forms of Vishnu, i.e. Lakshmi and Narayan, who sit on throne. Shankar too would not be called Prajapita. You know that as is one’s feelings, so is the divine vision that is caused. As such there is no matter of snake etc. there. There cannot even be bulls there.

In the Subtle Region there are deities only. You visit the Subtle Region – you see garden, fruits, etc. Is there any garden there? Baba causes divine vision. But it does not exist. The intellect says – there cannot be trees etc. in the Subtle Region. It is certainly a divine vision. The divine vision would also be caused here. All this is a divine vision. This is called a game of magic. This is not knowledge. Human beings make other human beings Barristers; that would not be called a magic. They give knowledge. This one transforms you from a human being to a deity for the new world. That is why it is called magic. The key to divine vision is with Baba. That is why He is called a magician too. They say that it is a favour by the guru; the idol caused divine vision. There is no benefit in it. Here you work hard and are becoming Lakshmi-Narayan, Sita-Ram yourself ...

As regards divine visions etc it is just chitchat. One should not wish/hope for that. They feel that now when Baba Himself has come, He should cause divine vision. But all this is wasteful. Then, if divine vision is not caused, they become disheartened and leave the study."
(Revised Sakar Murli dated 10.09.07, pg 2&3 published by BKs in Hindi, translated by a PBK, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Post17 Sep 2007

new_knowledge wrote:And could you submit quotations from Murli, Avyakt Vani or Ved-Shashras to prove that the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar definitely do not exist??
arjun wrote:Here is a quote regarding Subtle Region from one of the latest revised Sakar Murlis published by the BKs ...

Okay. Though Vishnu Party do not entirely believe in Murli, I respect your Murli quotation. And thanks for feedback. But our point of view about Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar is totally different from BKWSU, which goes against Murlis. BKWSU views the Subtle Region in the limited context of the Confluence Age of 100 years, but Vishnu Party views it in the unlimited context of the broad drama of millions & billions of years old.

Advance kmowledge views Lekhraj Brahma as SookshmaVatanwaasi Brahma (Brahma of the Subtle Region) who is not believed to be present here in the corporeal world. Thus as Brahma (Lekhraj) lives in the Subtle Region, then logically it may be a possiblity that Vishnu & Shankar also may be residentials of the Subtle Region. And if this is so, then where do they live in the Subtle Region?

But according to Vishnu Party, Lekhraj Brahma has nothing to do with the Abode of Brahma. Actually there are millions & billions of Brahmaandas (Universes) each having its own Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar: but they are worth not a penny & not related to the Abodes of Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar. I'll separately quote an article about these Abodes.

Subtle Region is viewed as movie world. Souls like Brahma reside there. He is not in dead silence there. Thoughts emerge in his mind also in the Subtle Region. And 'thinking' is also included in 'subtle Karma'. Thus the shooting of the eternal world drama, in the subtle & movie form, also takes place in the Subtle Region. Then,
    a) why it's strongly argued that the whole world drama completely takes place only in the Corporeal World?
    b) and why movie & subtle drama in the Subtle Region is neglected?
Actually in Murlis & Avyakt Vanis, there is no clear & complete knowledge about various words - incorporeal, casual, subtle & corporeal world & about millions & billions of Brahmaandas. Is there any Murli point about the Casual World & the casual body?
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arjun

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Post17 Sep 2007

Dear new_knowledge,

Omshanti. When you talk of millions and billions of years drama and millions and billions of Universes, then I think there is very little that is common between us to discuss anything. I am sorry I cannot associate with this kind of philosophy.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Post17 Sep 2007

But Arjunbhai, though we do not entirely believe in Murli, but indirectly Murli also support multi-universes having more than one Kalpa Tree. For example, a Murli point entitles the Supreme Father (God Shiva) as 'Baagwaan' (Gardener).

Now is there only one Kalpa Tree in his unlimited garden? Is any garden made of only one tree? In the definition of garden, there must be included more than one tree. Then logically we have to accept that there are so many Kalpa Trees. Here it's important to note that various religions are not viewed as those trees in the garden of ShivBaba. Instead various religions are viewed as branches of the same Kalpa Tree (in the picture of the Kalpa Tree).
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Post18 Sep 2007

new knowledge wrote:In the definition of garden, there must be included more than one tree.

What about; rock gardens ... cactus gardens ... Zen gardens ... water gardens ... tea gardens ... sand gardens ... moss gardens ... lawn gardens ... rose gardens ... rain gardens ... tub gardens ... window gardens ... chinese garden ... rooftop garden ... cottage garden ... hanging gardens?

There are plenty of gardens with no trees. And, yes, low and behold MILLIONS with only one tree. Its says Baba is a Gardener not an arborist. So that blows that yukti apart.

This thread is about the PBK interpretation of the Subtle Regions. Vishnu Party members seem to only use BK related terminology to try and seeds doubts in the hearts of BKs in order to capture them into yet another cult ... why pretend? That would the loosest posisible connection ... no logic whatsoever.

I am not arguing against your knowledge but the techinque sucked. Have you managed to find anything out about the circumstances of 1997?
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arjun

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Post18 Sep 2007

new_knowledge wrote:But Arjunbhai, though we do not entirely believe in Murli, but indirectly Murli also support multi-universes having more than one Kalpa Tree. For example, a Murli point entitles the Supreme Father (God Shiva) as 'Baagwaan' (Gardener).

Now is there only one Kalpa Tree in his unlimited garden? Is any garden made of only one tree? In the definition of garden, there must be included more than one tree. Then logically we have to accept that there are so many Kalpa Trees. Here it's important to note that various religions are not viewed as those trees in the garden of ShivBaba. Instead various religions are viewed as branches of the same Kalpa Tree (in the picture of the Kalpa Tree).

Dear Brother,

Omshanti. You are free to interpret the mention of the word 'Baagwaan' (gardener) in your own way to mean many Kalpa trees in the universe, but there is no Sakar Murli which says that there is life beyond this Earth. In fact ShivBaba has clearly said that there is no life beyond Earth. Please read this:

"Yah kisko pataa nahee hai, God is one. Aur koi creator hai nahee, na oopar koi duniya hai, na neechey koi duniya hai. Yah jo kahtey hain aakaash paataal, yah sab gapodey hain. Samajhtey hain stars kay oopar bhi duniya hai. Parantu vahaan kisi kee Raajdhaani nahee hai." (Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli, dinaank 19.07.07, pg 2)

"Nobody knows that God is one. There is no other creator. Neither is there any world above, nor is there any world below. Whatever they say about the sky and the under/nether world is all gossip. They think that there is a world above the stars also. But there is nobody’s kingdom there." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 19.07.07, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, translated by a PBK, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba)

I do not know from where Mr. Dashrath Patel got the idea of millions of Universes. Has he visited any other universe in this lifetime or at least after he realized himself to be God in 1997? If he has visited other universes (even if it is through his subtle body), I think he can enlighten the modern day scientists, who have not been able to explore completely even our own tiny solar system (leave alone our huge universe) despite spending billions of dollars of taxpayers money on such wasteful expeditions.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Post18 Sep 2007

arjun wrote:I do not know from where Mr. Dashrath Patel got the idea of millions of Universes. Has he visited any other universe in this lifetime or at least after he realized himself to be God in 1997?

I wish I could quote a psychologist or sociologist who has commented on certain elements of humanity's love and worship of magical big numbers. I would ask the practical questions, when did he count all of these worlds and how could he remember which he had counted and which he had not? I suppose "magically" he just knew because he is God and so therefore must be right? Come on, Vishnu Party is fairly standard esoteric Hinduism re-labeled for a BK audience.

But, please, can we move back "on topic" ... the Vishnu Party has its own topics.
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Post18 Sep 2007

arjun wrote:there is no Sakar Murli which says that there is life beyond this Earth. In fact ShivBaba has clearly said that there is no life beyond Earth. Please read this: "Nobody knows that God is one. There is no other creator. Neither is there any world above, nor is there any world below. Whatever they say about the sky and the under/nether world is all gossip. They think that there is a world above the stars also. But there is nobody's kingdom there." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 19.07.07, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, translated by a PBK, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba)

Okay. Then with special reference to this Murli point, do you wish to strongly argue following statements?
    1) There are no any Lila worlds except this earth.
    2) Each & every episode of the eternal World Drama takes place in the Corporeal World (on the earth).
    3) Every actor of this World Drama must be present here in this Corporeal World, i.e. on this earth.
    4) All our Karmic actions (to think, to speak, to eat etc.) take place here on the earth &
    5) We have to settle our Karmic accounts here to achieve liberation.
Am I correct? If yes, then ... then what's going on in the Subtle Region, beyond the Corporeal World - beyond the sun, the moon & stars ... far ... far away from the earth? Why is the Subtle Region is entitled as 'subtle' or 'movie' world? You quoted in an article that the Three Worlds -corporeal, subtle & incorporeal - also represent corporeal, subtle & incorporeal stages of the souls.

Now if nobody lives (temporarily or permanently) or goes to the Subtle Region, then nobody could achieve subtle stage in the Subtle Region. So it's wrong to say that the Subtle Region represents the subtle stage of souls. To be entitled as 'Subtle' world, there must be a lifeworld (in subtle stage) present in the Subtle Region, though this Subtle Region is far far away from the earth. Even to be called as 'movie world', there should be life in the form of movie actions, i.e Karma (like thinking) of souls having subtle body. Thus lifeworld/lifeworlds also exist (in Subtle Region) beyond earth.

And as life exists in the Subtle Region, then there's also a possibility of life in the Casual World & other unknown worlds. Thus 'multi-lifeworlds', 'multi-Universes' are real facts. And as life also exist in various worlds other than the earth, then some parts, episodes of the eternal World Drama also take place in that worlds, the earth is not the only one location of the World Drama & some actors of the World Drama are also present in that life worlds. Again the earth is not the only one location of Karmic actions & to some extent our Karmic accounts are also settled in these worlds.
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