Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - BKWSU Derby centre

Post09 Mar 2009

Ratna wrote:Coming back in Golden Age is a choice and not mandatory, you can either stay spiritual or obtain a new material body and continue the fall to impurity and regaining purity back through salvation and self-realization.

Just to translate ... Brahma Kumaris believe that only they, or all human beings, will incarnate into a Golden Age on earth. To do so, one must surrender one's self to the BKWSU, commit 100% of one's mind,body and wealth to the Brahma-kumaris leadership.

To state that, according to Brahma-kumaris philosophy, entrance to heaven is a "choice and not mandatory" is correct. It mirrors the Brahma-kumaris skillful method of telling their mentally conditioned followers that, "they can leave any time" ... Of course they can leave, it is not "mandatory" to stay and make "efforts" ... but the bitter pill is that BK followers have been conditioned to believe that if they do leave they will be doomed for eternity, fail, never reach heaven, be a traitor to 'The Baba' and The Family etc. Lose everything.

It is in this vice that individuals like Esther existed until she finally cracked ... a "weak brick" to use the Brahma Kumaris terminology ... which exploded in the "kiln" of the BKWSU that is baking the "bricks" (the souls of the BK followers) for the Golden Age because she was unable to keep up the lifestyle they demand of followers, especially women. (Although Ratna does not seem to be a BK proper with all this talk of "Heavenly realms". They don't exist within the BKWSU teachings).

What happened to Esther ... my guess, to date, was a failure in faith following a failure of 'The Baba' to do everything he and the Brahma Kumari leaders promise he does. The realisation that Brahma Kumarism is all not what it says it is and does not do what it promises. The Baba does not deliver.

To understand this suicide, one must look at suicide in women in general, suicide within her community (As Esther Lung and being from Hong Kong, I understand she was Chinese diaspora) and the chose of method of suicide. As primal.logic points out, the chose of hanging is a very, very serious determined decision ... not a "cry for help" as many might belittle an overdose etc.

Where were the caring, divine Brahma Kumaris having taken over someone's consciousness so far ... how separated was the individual from her physical family ... did she have no friends etc?

The typical answer to the last two would be "separated by the BKWSU teachings" and "none". That is what the Brahma Kumaris do to people. Leave them with nothing, internally and externally, but dependent on the organization for trifles; a sweetie or a pat in the head from Dadi, some 'fortune cookie' advice over the phone from Jayanti.

The most information I have to details leads to two addresses in Derby, England where the BKWSU had a center at 82 Leman Street, Derby, DE22 3UX T:01332 202419 nearby her last addresses (which I have, if anyone local wishes to follow up on this). It now seems to have closed.

Esther was involved in two vegetarian food businesses http://www.cafeharmony.co.uk and http://www.fulldragon.co.uk whose websites are now down. By any chance, did she come back from Hong Kong with some service connection to the Brahma Kumaris center in Derby? (I don't know, I am asking). I am also asking if it is likely that with the nearest BK center closing, and perhaps her businesses failing, she was trapped and had no support? She was also active promoting Living Values programmes and is listed on the BKWSU front, LVEP website.

I wonder how much time and money the Brahma-Kumaris got out of her before she died? Sure, they will just dismiss her as being "mentally unstable". Stable enough to take money off during the good times, forgotten about when questions start to arise.

We need to know more about this case and the BKWSU Derby centre. Can anyone find out more?

This is a picture of Esther last business ...

FadedCafe.jpg
Ester Lung RIP
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desi_exbk

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post09 Mar 2009

My deep condolences to Esther's family.

    BKWSU philosophy - GUILTY!
    BKWSU leadership - GUILTY!
    BK Jayanti - GUILTY!
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

Date of visit: June 2008

This is newly opened business but I was blown away by how finished and professional the setup was. The front is small but as you enter you are aware of the clean whitewashed walls and old blackened oak beams. The atmosphere is cosy and relaxed with the eating area split into many small rooms. The food is fresh and reasonably priced and they currently offer a couple of cooked meals, plus soups and a delicious variety of salads and savouries. There is a tempting variety of cakes and desserts, the majority of which are vegan. I am looking forward to many visits!

Reviewer Roger S (Derbyshire)
Date of visit: October 2008

This has unfortunately now closed and is unlikely to open again.

Reviewer Roger S (Derbyshire)

When did the BKWSU Derby center close?
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Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

deccani wrote:My deep condolences to Esther's family. BKWSU philosophy - GUILTY! BKWSU leadership - GUILTY! BK Jayanti - GUILTY!

It is difficult for everyone when there is a suicide.

BK teachings are no more and no less guilty of causing a suicide than any religious belief that teaches a self/body split, and emphasises the "sins" of the flesh. Who could begin to count the numbers of suicides caused by Christian teachings?

Uniquely though, BK philosophy compounds the potential for distress by its ridiculous teachings of status, "spiritual" caste system (now there's a self-contradiction), "numberwise" and eternal damnation by repetition of destiny (for the suicidal read this as repetition of inadequacy and failure, cycle after cycle after cycle - after all, not everyone can be "complete human beings" like the 8 , 108, 16108 - whatever).

That said, I would add that the BKWSU compounds that even further by failing to understand what implications these teachings can have, particularly on someone who's psychological integrity is under stress. Whether or not they were the cause of that stress - sometimes they are, sometimes the problem exists already - that's not the issue. It is one thing to use points of "Gyan" as motivation for a practice, but if someone is distressed, and is further encouraged to keep using it when it only reinforces the loss of self belief, of inadequacy, it's like trying to fix a leaky boat by drilling more holes in it.

Many have written in these pages, and many classes and discussions take place amongst BKs, about how Gyan can be used to elevate oneself etc etc. No reflection takes place about its potential to harm the vulnerable (after all it is "knowledge" they'd say, not mere belief).

If any "officials" of the BKWSU are reading this - I do not blame any individual in the BKWSU directly for any suicide. Suicides happen in many situations, all are tragic. But you must accept that there is indirect bearing from the ways and teachings of BK-ism.

I was BK for a very long time. I looked at the Gyan from every which way, and the potential for harm is very high (call it misunderstanding, call it taking it the wrong way, that's irrelevant). Gyan's potential for multiplying existential anxiety is enormous.

The breakdowns - whether personal or family, the deaths by suicide and much more - all this surely must compel you into re-examining what you can do to reduce any bad effects that your ways and teachings can have. I ask you to please consult with trained psychologists to work out ways that mitigate the potential for harm in your teachings.

It may go to the core of your theoretical teaching - which I believe it does - but what is that in comparison to a shattered life?

I will direct one criticism though, to where the buck stops - when the head has no heart -any mother that can close her heart to her own baby, to willingly give it away, just so she can follow her own desire for acceptance, status and other egotistic needs, such a person is no mother.
What goes through the mind of someone to justify that action?
After that, closing your heart to anyone is easily done, and you can justify anything to yourself very cleverly - Gyan gives many yuktis indeed. And then to benignly smile and drip such poisonous rationalisations into others. You all know who I mean.
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

How can we as BK followers or ex-followers initiate some kind of inquest about such deaths? *

Letter-to-BK-Jayanti.jpg
"Its her karma ... her role in drama ... be detached ... remember Baba ... eat halva"
Letter-to-BK-Jayanti.jpg (12.14 KiB) Viewed 2154 times

Why the image? Jayanti Kirpalani is the de facto "international coordinating office" of the BKWSU in London, head of the centers where Esther and Ranjana were involved, the heir apparent for Dadi Janki Kripalani's throne once she dies, institutionally a neglector or part of the obstruction to any talk of 'Duty of Care', in my opinion. If she and Janki wanted it ... it would be done tomorrow.

I wanted to do some research into the nature of suicide by hanging as death (mortality) is measured as the “worst” outcome of disease. In this case a mental disease, a mythomania, an insanity called "Brahma Kumarism". Too strong a diagnosis? Read on.

Mental diseases can be "fun". The manic-depressive, or those suffering delusional disorders, are having a "wonderful time" during their 'high' and do not want it to stop. Their acting out whatever mania possesses them without thought to the consequences to themselves or others. Generally they are a danger to themselves and others whilst they are doing so. What do you call an army of uneducated, even senile old Pakistani women encouraging the world to believe they are the most divine Angels, Emperors and Empresses of a forthcoming Golden Age, and to surrender all their money, property and free labor to them?

At a minimum, suicides attempts occur 10 times as often as suicides. Women account for the majority of reported attempts, although statistically about a quarter of actual incidents (hanging accounts for only 17% of all the method). Suicidal deaths are the tip of an iceberg, generally made up of depression and delusion. Why was this not seen in advance by these perspicacious "Knowers of the 3 Aspects of Time"?

Normally, women are said to be less prone to suicide because of their protective "social embeddedness". Brahma Kumarism removes that. Parenthood and having families are protective. Brahma Kumarism removes those. Women are also at greater risk of suicide when they deviate from traditional roles. Brahma Kumarism removes them.

Generally women use mental health services more than men do and so therefore it would follow that women are more likely to be treated for depression or other contributing psychiatric illnesses and would be at lower risk of suicide. This would not apply to a Brahma Kumari follower who would, I argue, be unable to find, express themselves, use or take benefit from such healthcare. Let us look to 'enlightenments', eromain's and others comments and the discussion around their experiences.

If you go to a doctor as a BK, they are going to think you are mad and NOT be able to help you. Their help is going to be a challenge to the BK faith. In my opinion, a BK is going to fight to resist treatment, advice, even medication. Having to take help would be a failure of the omnipotent Baba, Brahma Kumarism and their 'Om Shanti cure all' via ... "have more Yoga, remember Baba, eat toli".

Obviously, by the January the 18th date, Esther was trying to say something to the Brahma Kumaris that they were not hearing. Perhaps Dadi Janki was too busy on the phone looking after the like of the cuckold-yet-sexually-promiscuous VIP Robin Gibb, or chasing after rich Arabs to buy centers in the Middle East like in Egypt or Turkey? Hardly big pick up joints for Hindus.
"Short drop" hanging (where the neck does not break) is a gruesome death. It slowly strangles the victim rather than cause instant death and can take up to 15 minutes. The body twitches as it fights for life. It is likely to urinate or defecate. The face fills with blood. Internal organs prolapse (fall out).

I have no idea how any one could push themselves to do that ... perhaps tying her own hands as prisoners are cuffed. Who found her and how? Was her lokik family (physical relatives) left to face the mess left behind as usual?

(* The images above are taken from the victims of other real hangings).
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Mr Green

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

When I was seriously suicidal, I found I did not consider how horrible the method would be. I regularly visualised cutting my wrists and taking a bucket to my room in Shanti Bhavan so not too much mess would be made. Even in that I felt I did not deserve to be a burden ... then after this I considered throwing myself in front of a bus or off a building ... The last times I gathered a large amount of Codeine tablets (which I still have) ... Now I still have such thoughts but my life has moved on considerably and it is rare now ... I am one of the lucky survivors ... now I have moved onto just severe depression and anger. I understand the feeling when you want to die, you feel you almost have to, it is better than being alive with such pain.

Tom's posting about BKs needing to consider the implications of Gyan to harm is spot on, but it will never happen. They already discuss mental health but all the pyschologists they talk to are actually members !!!!!! They would be too scared to talk to a professional outsider because, without doubt, Jayanti herself is seriously mentally ill ... as are many there.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

I must say ex-l that the graphic images posted are a bit over the top for me, especially in the format it has been presented in, in order to create a certain internal response. Its kind of like the sensationalistic media /press acting in full-blown glory but it's needless to do so. Facts are fine, sensationalism is not in my book.

Whilst I understand the horrific experience (and have my own graphic mind imagery) of this tragedy, I am not sure I need more of it on top of it all, my own visualisations have been enough and I understand that we too cannot just sit back and ignore what has happened. I've seem more than enough suicides in my time, thank you to last me for this life-time.

Whilst this forum seems to be changing and altering in its own organic processes, can we not perhaps all agree what is acceptable imagery - or not, as the case may be.Could you please consider removing these pictures accordingly?
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primal.logic

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

The letter I posted to start this thread was also emailed to Jayanti. She knows who I am. But I am not expecting a reply.

DUTY OF CARE. Is that so hard to understand or accept?! Only if you are as stubborn and self righteous as Jayanti. There is absolutely no excuse for not having a duty of care policy and practise. It is just that Jayanti and Janki both resent that the subject has been raised by the contemptuous and the fallen - us. We are the lowest caste, according to BK teachings, because we left the fold. So who are we to know? Thus the request to Jayanti to get over herself and get out of the way.

As ex-l commented, if Jayanti and Janki wanted duty of care it would be in place tomorrow. But they don't, and the consequence of this has been not only Esther's death, but the deep and painful experiences of so many, many others. And how many others have committed suicide that we don't know about?

Esthers suicide was inside information. No doubt Jayanto did her best to play it down and keep it quiet - that is not the response to such a tragedy that demonstrates care or concern - it simply demonstrates the political manoeuvring that is all Jayanti knows.
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tete

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

Mr Green,
The last times I gathered a large amount of Codeine tablets (which I still have) ...

If you don't need them at hand for physical/ailment/pain, can you dispose of them? You are a very creative person and a dry humour type and I so have become 'attached' to you. In fact, the best one liner was just one word and I was hoping that you could re-create or take out (via a request from the closed topics) the Green Brama Kumaris Sect (of which you are the leader) where we could banter via humour, and get rid of some of our frustrations or see the irony of life.

I am so blessed to know you as we play in the sand box of life and look forward to more times filled with laughter, as we continue to play.

I know you know, that I am always a click away, ready to listen and as you know, I too have relied on your shoulder to. If one good thing is to come from reflection on this tragic death, it is to find the many things we can live for and be thankful for, such as friendship and fellowship and sometimes a 'Hello' or a simple smile.

Love, Light and all that other good stuff too.
Your friend,

Tete
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enlightened

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

Dear Mr Green

I agree with Tete, please dispose of the tablets, otherwise I too may be tempted to stock up on some as I am a follower of Mr Green Kumaris Spriritual University, (hehehe) :D ... :shock: :-?.

Come on, please tell us some of your Mr Green Kumari jokes ... let's help each other get through these really challenging moments.

Tete is right. These kind of incidences can make us appreciate and realise all the wonderful things we can do in our lives and all the wonderful things we can look forward to.

Yours truly
Enlightened
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joel

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

I would say to keep the tablets. The choice to be able to control one's pain is important, for example if you break a rib, and prefer to avoid hospital care.
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Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:If you go to a doctor as a BK, they are going to think you are mad and NOT be able to help you. Their help is going to be a challenge to the BK faith.

Psychologists and other professionals deal with people of all faiths. It is unethical for them to actively seek to change a person's religious beliefs. They are there to help the client heal themselves.

So if this is an issue for you, don't avoid seeking assistance because you think, "how can a lokik therapist understand about this Confluence Age etc etc". That is not their concern. What evolves in sessions is between the therapist and the client. The main thing is to become a psychologically stronger person.

The main thing is the client needs to be comfortable with the therapist. They are human, and each one is different. If not comfortable, find another.

Also, if prescribed medication, seek another opinion first - ask both if they consider medication absolutely necessary, or if they consider you to be in a most serious state, and drug therapy as essential. If not, (you are more likely to be in a middle to low range) then ask for alternative therapies to drugs. The long term side effects are serious, and not worth it unless other options have been exhausted.

BTW I think it is admirable of Lee James to openly be in therapy. (I know of some his pre-gyan history having had long talks with him in the past). He is not the "in charge" of the centre that he lives in though. That part is incorrect.

In the USA, (let's say california then) being in therapy is almost a badge of honour, cool, part of self examination. In the UK and Australia, it is seen as some kind of last resort - (depending on class) part of the stiff upper lip tradition, or the 'Bollocks tradition'. Hopefully these things are changing.
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post10 Mar 2009

terry wrote:Psychologists and other professionals deal with people of all faiths. It is unethical for them to actively seek to change a person's religious beliefs. They are there to help the client heal themselves.

Terry, is this based on theory, personal experience, or evidence?

    I'd really like to know your sources.
Just as an aside ... is Lee "openly" in therapy ... or was he kind of forced into and "outed" as being in therapy? A little off topic here, but why is our "spiritualist" friend Lee (his claim, not mine) in therapy? Delusions of grandeur ... at being some elevated messianic prophet for the whole of East Asia ... or just run of the mill 'folie à plusieurs' (lit: madness of many) of being a BK adherent?

The fact that he remains living in the Brahma Kumaris center, and we therefore have to suspect still interfacing with the general public of the organization, says much about it. I suppose if they have not managed to find someone to donate them a center, they might just need his rent money to keep it afloat ... but is it not a little irresponsible in both directions to have him in the frontline?

I remember some talk of him doing overnight youth programmes which made me shudder at the thought.
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Terry

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

terry wrote:Psychologists and other professionals deal with people of all faiths. It is unethical for them to actively seek to change a person's religious beliefs. They are there to help the client heal themselves.
ex-l wrote:Terry, is this based on theory, personal experience, or evidence?
Edited excerpt: Code of Ethics and Conduct for Members of The NSW Institute of Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy

Psychotherapists shall respect the essential humanity and dignity of patients

1.1 Psychotherapists interventions shall take into account a respect for patients" autonomy, essential humanity and dignity.
1.2 Psychotherapists shall not discriminate against nor exploit their patients on grounds of age, gender, race, cultural background, sexual orientation, creed, political affiliation and religion, nor impose their own personal values (for example social, spiritual, political and ideological). Should such issues be likely to affect the therapeutic relationship adversely, psychotherapists shall seek consultation and shall be willing to refer patients to a more suitable psychotherapist.

I am sure practically all such professional associations would have very similar codes. That is not to say beliefs won't be discussed or examined to see how they are affecting the individual. They would not be discussed as to how ''true" they are. They are more likely to be viewed to see how the client uses that belief in their life, and the effect it has on them as individuals. A good therapist helps the client make their own sense of things, not tell them what to believe.

Re: Lee James - it does not appear to be a secret. I am sure it wasn't shouted from the rooftops either. As for the rest, I will respect his privacy and confidentiality. I wish him well.
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ex-l

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Re: Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti

Post11 Mar 2009

Terry, so by all accounts you have given, you are an entirely unqualified individual talking theory. Is that correct?

In such a context as this thread, I would say there are two types of "qualified" individuals. That is, individuals qualified to talk.

    a) academics and medical/healing practitioners, and
    b) patients or victims
Personally, anyone unqualified to talk should really limit themselves to asking those with experience what their experience was.

    • Do you have any experience in these matters?
The greatest danger in being self-taught is that, "one does not know what one does not know" ... which all too often is the reality of a given situation.

In my experience, "shoulds" are worth **** (which I am sure wont make it through the word censor but is a really nice alliteration). There is a huge almost unbridgeable gap between the depth of BK mental condition and psychotherapies ... if indeed psychotherapies, as available via health services, can help at all (the 'science' on that offers 50:50 odds, basically). This statement is congruent with qualified discussion on remedial care for ex-cult members.

"Chemical coshes" ... anti-depressants, SSRIs, psychiatric drugs etc, will work to whatever degree they work (and that is another argument altogether) simply because one cannot argue against a chemical reaction. If the noise and pain is so great, then there is an argument for accepting the use of them - or self-medicating if that is your bent.

This ... mental illness amongst BK adherents ... is an area where the Brahma Kumaris REALLY "should" and must open their organization up to greater study. What defines the Brahma Kumaris as a cult, even a dangerous cult, is their complete lack of responsibility to, accountability for, and proper pastoral care over their followers (note: the leadership's very denial that they even have "followers").

To me, it is almost as if they are acting out being a religion without knowing what it really takes to be a religion. They are not part of any tradition. They encourage completely uneducated and unqualified individuals to mess around with other individual's core psychologies ... and roadkill, like Esther or all the broken individuals and families, are evidence of the results of their "experiment".
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