Who is Shiv Baba?

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idontcare634

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Who is Shiv Baba?

Post24 Jul 2011

Hello,

I was associated deeply with the BKs for 11 years 1995-2006. Later I left it because I moved to a stage where my Kundalini started ascending and I experienced a bigger and more powerful GOD. God made me realize that the "knowledge" is actually not correct. But, I am still baffled as to who is Shiv Baba? The personality that comes into Dadi Gulzar's body is definitely the most charming, charismatic and loveful personality I have met in my whole life. Ihave met several gurus and holy men. No one comes close to the charisma and charm of Shiv Baba. 6 years after stopping BK, the face of BapDada still draws my deepest emotions/love.

Who is Shiv Baba and what does he want from us?
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Mr Green

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post25 Jul 2011

He doesn't exist.
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ex-l

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post25 Jul 2011

idontcare634 wrote:But, I am still baffled as to who is Shiv Baba?

Welcome to the forum, thank you for your question, and well done for moving on.

I think if we are honest with ourselves, it is blazzingly and inarguably obvious that "The Knowledge" is not "truth" ... if only because it is being constantly re-written and modified ... and, hence, who or what ever it is that is pushing it not a "god", never mind "the God" of all. Have you ever had any experience with any other charismatic gurus to compare?

I think my answer would be that the "bafflement" ... the unknowable nature ... is part of the 'hook' that keeps people in. Individuals stay in w-a-y beyond the point where their logical mind or even intuitions tell them what is happening in dishonest or insane. They stay despite not knowing and pretend to know on a "just in case" basis or like monkeys caught by their hand gripping sweets in a bottle and refusing to let go. You know the old "monkey trap" trick.

All we can say we "know" is that who or whatever "BapDada" is ... even if there is nothing and it is just a performance by some aspect of Gulzar, as mr green suggests ... it allows the Brahma Kumaris to carry out endless frauds, break up families, take property and wealthy off people under false pretences, makes false predictions of the world, knows little about politics and religion, world population demographics, is bigoted and elitist. The descriptive list could go on and on.

Perhaps the question we should encourage others to ask is not "who Shiv Baba is?" But why does he/they/it do so? What is the purpose of the charm offensive and why have they chosen aping "religion" as their device to socially climb? What is he/they/its End Game? ... Well, we know that. Nuclear War and the death of humanity.

Charm is not worth much in life. Conmen, thieves and politicians are often very charming. It gets them what they want and protects them.

Do you consider, within your current understand of reality, that spirits, angels, devils and gods exist?
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idontcare634

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post26 Jul 2011

Yes. I did meet several gurus as I kept tagging along with relatives after leaving BK. I actually don't have too much to complain about the BKs. The Knowledge is wrong and all, but at least they helped me when I desperately needed some support and was depressed and was getting suicidal thoughts. My main problem is with their philosophy:

    1) Destruction
    2) 5000 year cycle - I actually searched and went to museums where dinosaur bones were present, and saw them with my eyes.
    3) becoming "Lakshmi/Narayan and heaven" etc.
The meditation itself was really enjoyable.

Having met Gulzar Dadi closely several times as a double foreigner, I think it is very unlikely that she is consciously putting on the act. I think something that none of us understand happens to her (multiple personalities??). There is a lot of difference in her face and expressions when BapDada is there vs when not there.

I cannot deny my left brain (logic, which clearly tells me that The Knowledge is incorrect) nor can I deny the out-of-the world experiences and bliss of my right brain (via meditation). Because of these contradictions, I sometimes tend to become agnostic/atheistic, but in my heart I want a nice/liberal GOD to be there for me.
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ex-l

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post26 Jul 2011

idontcare634 wrote:Having met Gulzar Dadi closely several times as a double foreigner, I think it is very unlikely that she is consciously putting on the act. I think something that none of us understand happens to her (multiple personalities??). There is a lot of difference in her face and expressions when BapDada is there vs when not there.

What is interesting is there are generally two main experiences that people report about their meeting with BapDada.

Yes, people report face changes, powerful meditation experiences and her extraordinary ability to just sit there for 12 hours plus not moving and doing its thing etc. On the other hand, many more people report feeling nothing at all. In fact, they report a disappointment or anti-climax. (The feeling of nothing is generally then blamed on the individual).

The environment surrounding the entrance of BapDada has changed hugely from intimate, individual personal meetings to now huge airport lounge sized circuses full of people flashing cameras, video recorders and security guards ... I wonder where their Yoga (attention) is as they fiddle with buttons and zooms, or what they hope to capture? "Look Mom, here is me on holiday with God" ... something that proves to them that they met God.

The whole issue of mediumship and channelling is one that we have tried to discussed many times. There are those that just outrightly dismiss the possibility of the idea as impossible without even being able to suggest an alternative mechanism. I tend to just take what the BKs claim at face value and work with their idea, without believing in it.

Therefore I accept their theory, that one or more spooks, spirits or entities possess Gulzar and use her body to direct the Brahma Kumaris ... but I question why it has to be "God" and argue very strongly on the basis of what it produces, that it could not possibly be "God".

The next question then is, if it is not God who or what is it? And what might a spook, spirit, entity or dead person that is not God but yet claims to be God and plays with people's mind as if they are God?

We know Lekhraj Kirpalani thought he was God and played with people's mind on that basis for many years. If the BKs claimed their god spirit was Lekhraj Kirpalani, 'a' god (one of many), an 'enlightened master' from Planet Zorg, or some alien intelligence ... I might just accept them and let them get on with their weird religion. But their claim is it the Supreme God is just to much because its knowledge, logic and modus operandi is just not however intoxicating the meditation experiences are.
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idontcare634

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post27 Jul 2011

I sometimes wonder, maybe God was playing a trick with us all along to take us through a certain path. Philosophical books talk about God as being the trickster. It is possible that the whole of BK thing was to give us one kind of an experience that is hard without tricking us (after all, adopting celibacy wholeheartedly is not a joke!!).

My take away from BK is the experience of true spiritual love, activation of the higher chakras/energy centers and a smooth and gentle raising of the Kundalini towards the end. The flip side is, it took some time to de-condition myself fully from the "knowledge" aspects. BK is just the first baby step on my journey towards ultimate God/Self realization, which may happen after several births.

One another positive is that after Kundalini, sex and other sensual pleasures are several times more intense and satisfying. After all Shiva is the God of sensual pleasures too, and he would want us to experience true sensuality to become complete (in Hinduism, in addition to being the God of asceticism, Shiva is also the God of sensuality - he is a very complex God!).
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ex-l

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post27 Jul 2011

idontcare634 wrote:Philosophical books talk about God as being the trickster. It is possible that the whole of BK thing was to give us one kind of an experience that is hard without tricking us ... Shiva is ... the God of asceticism ... also the God of sensuality - he is a very complex God!).

I have to say I am sick of self-important, supreme trickster gods and above all people that excuse and indulge them. It is true many societies, not just Hindu, portray gods as lustful, deceitful, vain and tricky ... would some other God, or perhaps Buddha, please give us all a rest from these idiots.

That "God/Baba is just testing our faith" line is such an easy get out for any screw ups. Predictions failed ... god is testing us. Service programme was a disaster ... god is testing us. Center-in-charge is a hurtful nutcase ... god is testing us. One could get away with anything if one could get others to believe it.

Please ... send me $500 and I will give you absolute proof that God exists (... and wants to test your faith).

Societies make gods in their image. Look at the Jewish god, full of anger, jealousy and infantile bipolar manipulation, sending his armies out to murder, rape and steal ... a spirit which the Christians, most of whom have no cultural connection whatsoever to the barren deserts that tribal god arose from, carried on with gusto. It may not have been religious but, boy, was it good for business!

Are these fairytale archetypes ... and the god of the BKs ... our own creation, or do they have any existence in their own right?

Are there invisible realms with invisible denizens able to effect our one, and are they worth bothering about or they better to block out? Has humanity ever been improved by them or are they (BK God included) just a complex curse upon us?
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bkti-pit

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Re: Who is Shiv Baba?

Post27 Jul 2011

ex-l wrote:Are these fairytale archetypes ... and the god of the BKs ... our own creation, or do they have any existence in their own right?

I say it is our own creation.

Even within BKism there are different concepts of God. It seems that the experience and concept of God varies according to personality types.

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