Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK ones

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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bkti-pit

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post16 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:How do you know you aren't still doing BK meditation?

No God, no Shiva, no Baba, no point of light, no "I am a soul", no focusing on the forehead, no Soul World, no Subtle Regions, no heaven, no Murli points ...

After I came to the conclusion that God was most likely a creation of human minds I thought that if my experiences were not coming from God they ought to be coming from within myself ... and it works!!!

What is it? How does it work? I do not know. It could be an interesting discussion.

Patzcuaro

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post16 Jan 2013

It is definitely an interesting discussion. On the post "Experiencing God" this discussion made very usefull contributions to this subject.

My conclusion after 20 years, and is absolutely personal, is that here is no possible way you can experience God if you do not have, in advance, an intense experience and relation with your own divine origin. Everything else implies a racional process full of cultural limitations that would automatically create obstacles.

Once you recognize yourself at an eternal level and feel clearly how you relate with your body, you usually can also recognize the difference between the energy coming from you, from the energy coming from outside, it is a crystal clear emotion.

One day, after years of asking in meditation for signs, a strange deep silence allowed me to get to a "non expectation state" becuase I was absolutely full of myself and all suddeny I was surrounded by an energy quite similar to mine but it was undoubtly coming from outside and it was million times stronger and more tender than any energy I felt before. I'll never forget that Hug, because it was hugging me. There was no sense of time or distance, ther was only me and ...

I never talked about this before.

Love
Patzcuaro

clearernow

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post16 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote: One day, after years of asking in meditation for signs, a strange deep silence allowed me to get to a "non expectation state" becuase I was absolutely full of myself and all suddeny I was surrounded by an energy quite similar to mine but it was undoubtly coming from outside and it was million times stronger and more tender than any energy I felt before. I´ll never forget that Hug, because it was hugging me. There was no sense of time or distance, ther was only me and ...

What a beautiful experience this was - thanks for sharing Patzcuaro. What I could relate to was the role of inner deep silence as a foundation to get to the next level of experience of wholeness and then the Divine. Truly wonderful. These are the moments of true fulfilment. I can only say that while I was reading your experience, I could actually feel something different!

Love
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of God compared with BK ones

Post17 Jan 2013

clearernow wrote:... I can only say that while I was reading your experience, I could actually feel something different!

Sure, that's very nice ... but so do men looking at pornography and that is their "opinion". If everything just boils down to sentiments and opinion, how can we value them as more or less beneficial?

And the fact is you do value them differently.

Before this 'love-in' gets all covered in sweet, gloopy syrup, can we just back track a bit to ask "which god", and is the god of the BKs the same as everyone else's?

In the modern day of the self and subjectivity, everyone seems afraid to offend everyone else leading to everything become a grey, indiscernible mush of subjective sameness.

As BKs we were trained to 'accommodate' this, without blinking or reacting, either during service events with other religions, or with individuals while teaching the 7 Day Course ... but is this really an honest reaction?

The BKs have their god, the Baha'is are often competitively multi-faith with the BKs and their have their god; someone else comes along and says, "jogging is my meditation" and then someone else says that they experience god when they have sex (lucky them, I hope it is Venus or Thor and not Kali or the Virgin Mary).

As BKs, we might say, "yes, yes, yes ..." and treat them like the spiritual baby we are taught to see them as guiding them to ShivBaba. But, Post-BK, can we not afford to ruffle a few feathers and propose a few stiff and probing questions?

My god or your god, many gods or no god? Whose god will win the "Religion's Got Talent" competition this year!?!
    How many of you played that game as a kid where you put one hand on top of a friend's hand, and then they on yours, and yours on their each fighting to try and be the top hand?
As a BK, I remember giving some school age kid a "Paramdham experience" on the basis of a few minutes chat and a bit of what I would not call hypnotic induction. I remember well after leaving Gyan, giving a then partner a similar "right out of the body/coming back wide eyed" introduction to BK Raja Yoga just to show them. You would see that as "proof" this was the miracle of god ... for me, now, I see it as hugely irresponsible.

Even back then, I knew it was not "me" giving the experience. I had not a clue how to give the experience. I was not even having "the experience" myself!!! It was out of control. If something had gone wrong, I would not have had a clue what to do or where to go and, as we have seen, neither do the BKs on many occasions. Victims are just whisked away to senior, or sometimes in ambulances. FACT.

So who or what was going on? Was I being possessed and used by some other spirit whether real of metaphorical? Who and how am I to judge what it was? Yes, for sure, I had interesting experiences and so did others around me ... but it was not controlled. It was just happening ... sometimes and irregularly, and for some sometimes never.

ex.brahma

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

Those who practice deep self-hypnosis, tell you stories and stories about similar experiences ...!!
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howiemac

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Truly divine beings don't trick, deceive and mislead ... it's as simple as that.

But who is doing the trickery? Are you saying it is the BK God (Shiv Baba)? Is it not Lehkraj (Brahma Baba) and his spiritual army who are doing the trickery? That's the way I see it.

In my own practical experience, BK-style Yoga with "Shiva" simply works. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It transforms. It has transformed me - both during BK days and since - from a miserable lost soul into being much more contented, happier and stronger. The improvements continue. It is like a very powerful course of psychotherapy, which gradually unravels all the old emotional blockages and pain which I had previously accumulated through the harsh experiences of life. Whether that Yoga is with a BK-only "God" or with a universal God, or with some other non-God being, I cannot say for sure. But Yoga with this presence works for me, big time. So, for me it is God. And it is the same "God" I used to sit with in the BK centres.

Brahma Baba (and BapDada) is something different. That is not "God", even according to the teachings of BapDada, as I understand them, though the vaguery of two Babas and Bap and Dada may utterly confuse most people, including me. If you understand the BK God as speaking through Brahma Baba (which I never once accepted), then that is a very different concept of God from the one I sit with. Maybe I never was a real BK? That's a nice thought...
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howiemac

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

bkti-pit wrote:I thought that if my experiences were not coming from God they ought to be coming from within myself ... and it works!!!

Yes - I tried that, and it worked for me also. Then after a year or two I tried having Yoga with (What BKs call) Shiva again, and that worked the same but much more powerfully. There may be no difference, just a shift in perception. After all, we are souls and Shiva is a soul just the same (I have direct visionary experience of this long before my BK days, and so for me it is simply a fact, not something to be discussed, only the name is questionable for me, and whether that souls is "God" or not - my attitude now is "why not?"), so whether having Yoga with your own divine self, or another divine being, the experience should be very similar.

The key thing is to connect with your own inner light. I feel that, however we rationalize or understand this experience, it doesn't really matter whether God is involved or not, either real or imaginary, and whether it is the BK God or another God or the divine self. All that matters is what works for you.
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howiemac

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Victims are just whisked away to senior, or sometimes in ambulances.

Yes. I think the BK setup is dangerous in this way: they themselves don't seem to know what they are dealing with. They teach arrogance and superiority, whereas real spirituality is based on humility. For me it is much safer to do my own thing, by myself. That way nobody else is endangered. After all, it was always meant to be about self-transformation, not transforming others.
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

For any believer who is doubting that what we have written about, and think it is an exaggerating, there have been cases of people having mental breakdowns is at least 4 continents (I know nothing of BK Africa). The BK leaders have no clue what to do, nor why it happens. "Teachers" are not warned nor trained to deal with it etc.

It's just one of those things which is swept under the carpet and not talked about. An acceptable risk to the expansion of the BKWSU empire.

Patzcuaro

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:For any believer who is doubting that what we have written about, and think it is an exaggerating, there have been cases of people having mental breakdowns is at least 4 continents (I know nothing of BK Africa). The BK leaders have no clue what to do, nor why it happens. "Teachers" are not warned nor trained to deal with it

I agree that is is not easy to "digest", and specially for Westerners, that each one of us - and the other 6,500,000,000 humans - happen to be immortal, subtle and divine beings; and also, that such a great news, experienced in meditation, could result in a few cases of what you call "mental breakdowns".

It is normal, but it is not only happening within BK, is happening everywhere in many other cults, in one way or anther. This is why this historical moment is so exciting and important. We will all have to deal with this reality sooner or later.

But still is "a great news", I would say "the best possible news". And it cannot never be be turned into something negative.

And, in my case, I received this great news from BK. And I'll be eternally greatful for it.
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote:I agree that is is not easy to "digest", and specially for westerners, that each one of us - and the other 6 500 000 000 humans - happen to be inmortal, subtle and divine beings; and also, that such a great news, experienced in meditation, could result in a few cases of what you call "mental breakdowns".

The idea of the self being an eternal soul is neither new nor unique to the Brahma Kumari cult, so we can remove that from the list of causes. There is some other apparently random factor and it's been a problem for the BKs for decades which, like the child abuse and suicides, they just sweep under the carpet saying, "It's their karma ...".

What I am talking about is not just a 'little upset', nor did it happen due to "hearing such great news".

What I am talking about is a functioning human being breaking down entirely, requiring hospitalization and ... and this is the punch line ... the time, effort and expense falling back onto the lokik (physical) family of the individual because the Brahma Kumaris don't pay for that kind of stuff, nor take any responsibility. The family bearing the costs and is messed up again.
"Everyone else pay, for the BKs". It should be their motto.

What would you say to the parents of them or the suicides ... be detach ... stable in Drama ... eat halva and be happy?" I dare say that you will just accuse for being "weak bricks", (to quote the god of the BKWSU).

Where is your compassion, even if you have no intelligence to give a response like that? You heartless, brainless and facetious cult moron.

Is this really your best advertisement for how good and wise your god and his creation is?

Patzcuaro

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Where is your compassion, even if you have no intelligence to give a response like that? You heartless, brainless and facetious cult moron.

Well, So far I thought we were accepting others's opinion and following this forum's rules by no using swearings or insults, and I actually respected your points of view even if I do not agree on most of them.

It seems that I touched some delicate fibre, but this reaction of yours does take away all seriousness and reliability to your opinions, and all this anger basically explains why you have such a complicated relation with BK. Being so far away from yourself makes very difficult to understand succh essential messages.

Anyway, I wish you all the best.

clearernow

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post17 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote: Where is your compassion, even if you have no intelligence to give a response like that? You heartless, brainless and facetious cult moron.

This makes me wonder even more what is your motive ex-l in running this forum which in any case is a one man show dominated by your opinions which you keep generalizing on BKs by all sort of manipulation possible. I do not know if you had a personal clash with a certain set of BKs that have hurt you or something like that - I truly wish you heal yourself by whatever technique you decide to choose because such reactions are extremely abnormal against someone which is genuinely expressing positive experiences. Questioning others compassion by such foul language is really weird - I had mentioned this in my earlier posts as well with some of your similar reactions that are extreme in nature. Most of your opinions don't reflect an iota of what many of us have learnt and seen with BKs and there is a lot of twisting of facts in your posts. This remark from you makes absolutely no sense and leaves this forum nothing short of a false propaganda that readers can clearly see from such reactions. Personally, I do remain forever grateful to BKs for the positive impact on all aspects of my life. All the best
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ex-l

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post18 Jan 2013

It strikes me you're both just trying to avoid discussing the topic and paint me out to be the "bad guy".

"Facetious" is not swearing or foul language, it means, "treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate or flippant manner".

We were talking about BKs who had had mental breakdowns whilst practising BK Raja Yoga and neither of you showed any compassion or sensitivity at all to them, nor their families. Patzcuaro wrote that it was caused by the "good news" of discovering they were a soul. That was facetious.
    Should one not be disgusted by an attitude like that? Anger? No; Loss of respect? Instant.
Even if you are only here to promote and defend the BKWSU, would it not be in *your* interest, and the interest of *your* god and religion, to be a little sensitive and compassion and to consider extending a 'duty of care' towards those individuals who did react in such a health and welfare harming manner? What about their families? Are they expendable to you?

Surely the "divine" response would be, "Gosh that is terrible, we should look into why this happens and ask our god in Mount Abu how to avoid it, then teach our adherents how to avoid or fix it?".

Hence my choice of word, moron, meaning an infantilised individual, a person with a mental age in late childhood (8 to 12 years, to be specific).

For your benefit, I'll repeat what I have written many times on this forum ... and scotch the myth that is circulating around the BKWSU. No, I never had any person clash with a certain set of BKs nor was I "hurt" in order to want to leave. I left because I lost respect of the leaders due to all their VIP chasing in the name of "service" ... instead of doing real, genuine charity. Until I found out as much as I know today about the BKWSU, I used to recommend it to others. There are good 'centers-in-charge' because of me.

I gave the BKWSU a chance to prove to me it was a "Spiritual University". It became too obvious that it was not. Spiritually, it does not progress beyond a child-like state. Beyond a certain point, they hold people back to milk them.

What raised my concern was not even discovering about the suicides, cover ups and abuse. It was uncool but I accepted it as part of being human enterprise ... it was the organizational corruption that did it. Discovering that everything we had built up through giving free was being turned into a business for a chosen few. A money making machine for them.

... And then discovering that the whole historical revision we had been told about "God" and Lekhraj Kirpalani was also false. At that point, I thought to myself, this cannot be "of god". There has to be more to life and God has to be better than this.


You have a topic here to specifically question and pre- and post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK ones. Implicit to that is the question of whether the god of the BKs is the God of all other religions, as the BKs claim.

You earn more Brownie points from me by staying 'on topic'. If you to ***** about me, there is a specific topic just for that. I won't be offended, so don't portray me as being angry when I not.

ex.brahma

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Re: Pre- & Post-BK experiences of "God" compared with BK one

Post18 Jan 2013

It is sad to notice the dishonesty of few BK "souls" writting in this forum, who claim in their profiles to be ex-BK, while in fact the cult teachings are deeply rooted in the marrow of their bones.

From personal experience, I would confidently say that the Brahma Kumaris cult is extremely insensitive to human issues and even hypocritical, when it comes to dealing with life daily issues ..!!
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