Using the 5,000 year cycle to bring truth to life with BKs

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
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Rajdhani

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Using the 5,000 year cycle to bring truth to life with BKs

Post08 Dec 2018

Greetings to All,

This is my first post here, although I came across this place ~ a month ago. I've read quite a few postings under various categories until now.

To talk about me, I was associated with the BKs for few years during late nineties and early 2000s. I gradually and naturally (owing to multiple factors) tapered down my association with the BKs and never bothered to look back. It did not occur to me that something was seriously amiss compared to the excruciating trauma which you foreigners (and some of our Indian folks) suffered unknowingly during the association with the BKs and aftermath.

Because I am from India and a Hindu by birth, to me, BK was okay and great because it made the right reasonance with what I had known and had been taught from various sources since childhood; about God, Hinduism, Karma, Reincarnation and a whole bunch of related stuff. It looks like the BK philosophy is so refined that they will go unquestioned when people come across their philosophy in their PR pursuits because it gels so well with the majority population in India. Rather, Hinduism itself is spread so thin that the common man accepts anything what you say if you ensure to include the right words.

I vaguely remember there is a lot of debate about carbon dating technology from BK Jagadish in his book Eternal World Drama claiming the technology itself to be flawed. The 5,000 year cycle itself can be a good starting point to bring the truth to life (even though there is/was a herculean task to hush up the past. Be it the Muralis or the people who gave up their everything during 1976).

Steam engine was one era (Industry 1), next came the combustion engine, oil extraction (Industry 2), next came the computers, internet, automation etc, (Industry 3), and now they say it's Industry 4, or rather Industry 4.2 to be precise with all the advent of IoT, AI, VR, ML and the likes.

All though it's an open and shut case when it comes to the 5,000 year cycle, it is one of the pragmatic aspect to initiate a meaningful dialogue with the BKs on the carbon dating and the age of the world, humans, civilization in general.

Mind you, even though they might have scared the followers not to visit this site, the administration will be all eyes. Whatever manipulation they need to do will straight away come from this very own site. So, even if ordinary BKs visit this site, the regular class at the centers will conveniently nullify their doubts. They are best in beating round the bush, that's their forte.
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post08 Dec 2018

Apologies for truncating my views. I'll be around. My salute goes to the people who've established this site and those few people who are committed to keep this alive in-spite of the overwhelming disturbances they've faced over the decades. This site will be the light house and the might house (sounds familiar?).
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ex-l

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post08 Dec 2018

Welcome and thank you.

I think you really got it here:
Rajdhani wrote:Rather, Hinduism itself is spread so thin that the common man accepts anything what you say if you ensure to include the right words.

Yes, you are right. It is as simple as that. A simple matter of using the right tokens ... added with the willingness to exploit pre-existing social orders, ie caste systems.

The BKs have elected themselves to be Brahmins. The true mouth born progeny of (their) Brahma. And looking the part, speaking the part and acting the part, they have set about rising up the dung heap of society to the top, in order to provide for themselves.

It is all just a big act, and why they never enter into public debates.

I cannot see it as anything more than that. Any goodness that might have come out of them is accidental, or against their leaders' wills.

They have 18 years to prove me wrong with endless practical miracles in order to produce their Golden Age by 2036.

I may well live to see it not happen. Clearly their leaders will all have died by then, and in great comforts compared to India's average. Comforts based on the exploitation of the rich and the poor that they would not have had had they not refined such a confidence trick in order to earn a living.

That is not spirituality for me.
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Pink Panther

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post09 Dec 2018

Hi Rajdhani,

Good to get input and feedback from a previously passive ”consumer” of the forum.

Re Carbon dating - there’s a few topics about it here you can find using the search page. Basically, the arguments against it by Jagdish and other non-experts are, as you'd expect, flawed.

They set it up as the sole arbiter of dating then use its limitations to knock it down to create doubt, a typical 'straw man' approach argument.

Carbon-dating is no more or less accurate than using scales to weigh things. Kitchen scales are not useful for weighing a load of stones on a truck, while a truck weigh-bridge is useless to measure out your cake recipe. To check a scale you need to have something to calibrate to. Carbon dating works acceptably accurately with a margin of error within a certain range of years, from the hundreds to the thousands. Its accuracy is checked against other known dating verifications - eg historical records, tree rings, core drilling etc. You don't use carbon-dating for forensic crime investigations to determine time of death, nor do you use it to determine the age of the universe. These time scales use different methods.

Ironically, Carbon dating for all its faults is ideal for the 5000 year time period the BKs claim the whole of history takes place in. The BK version is completely lacking in hard evidence of any sort, relying on ”appeal to authority” - and a self-declared authority at that.

You can look up the Wikipedia page on Carbon dating which is very clear on it and other dating methods and their uses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarb ... alibration
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post09 Dec 2018

ex-l wrote:They have 18 years to prove me wrong with endless practical miracles in order to produce their Golden Age by 2036.

From what I know, with my limited info from practicing BKs, they are expecting major upheaval in next 1 or 2 years and the new Golden Age has to be established by 2036. After Gulzar Dadi's ill health, followers go in the range of 28-30 K. Relevant old videos will be played on big screen (relevant in the sense, if majority people are from Maharashtra, then some old video where Maharashtra people had visited will be played). People often pester senior Brothers like Suraj Bhai to reveal more things like the dates for which he is non committal.

All in all, I think 2036 is there on the BKs minds and it is only matter of time the truth comes out unless they pull another trick like Baba coming on a new person or a series of new explanations spread across the next few years. This is where places like this website will play a major role. I often see many under "Guest" which I presume are the practicing BKs (I may be wrong).

One thing I read somewhere several years ago, not sure where exactly, may be PBK website, that when all are soul conscious in the Golden Age and the weather is also optimal and just right, where is the need to wear clothes? I request people to throw more light on this aspect.
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ex-l

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post09 Dec 2018

What do you mean, "After Gulzar Dadi's ill health, followers go in the range of 28-30 K"? Followers are leaving BKism, or followers are going to Mt Abu?
Rajdhani wrote:From what I know, with my limited info from practicing BKs, they are expecting major upheaval in next 1 or 2 years ...

I can personally confirm that they have been preaching 1 or 2 years since the early 1980s, when Destruction was supposed to be in 1986. That stopped looking likely, so they edited the Murlis to say, 50 to 60 years, ie 1986 to 1996.

I suspect they'd been saying the same thing in the 1970s (1976), the 1960s, the 1950s ... right the way back. It's just what they say. Close enough to make people afraid/excited. Long enough away that they'll forget or be hooked enough, by the time it does not happen.

It's very wrong.

We've documented the various predicts here. They avoid using a specific date, so they can say, "Baba has never given a date" as an excuse ... but they've clearly given specific years. And failed.

If there is a God, I am sure he does not fail.

I met Jagdish Chander when I was a BK. At that time you could sit easily with the leaders, even met their god spirit one to one. He was an entertaining character, but very quixotic or evasive. Without anyone in the cult to challenge him (few to none had any education), he was left to publish all sorts of nonsense, and was in no qualified to make the claims he did.

I suppose he was their pundit character but really just worked on the level of creating confusion, which they could then exploit by offering simple sureties. Science, academia is tough, BKism is easy. No need to think, question, resolve anomalies, offer explanations of the practicalities.

Just accept and repeat. The reward system was based not on the quality of one's inquiry, but on acceptance, submission, and conformity.

And never making the Seniors look as if they did not the answers!
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

Hello ex-l,

When I said 28-30K, it is the average number of people visiting Mt. Abu on a particular day of the season. For example, January 18th. As of now, even though Baba is not coming due to Gulzar Dadi's health issues, people are still visiting in good numbers on all the season dates. I think this is because there is a good push at individual centers to convince the followers to visit Mt. Abu. Secondly, people anyways will get to attend the classes of Seniors which as self worth BK will look forward to.

According to one BK from what that person has discussed in private with few other BKs is that if Baba starts coming on somebody else after Gulzar Dadi's demise, then lot of BKs will leave the Brahma Kumaris for good. I do not know how deep this is running on the minds of the BKs or if such kind of conversations and reasoning are happening everywhere else too.
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Pink Panther

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

The oversized infrastructure at Abu must have huge maintenance costs so it will be a primary imperative for all centres to keep the numbers of ”pilgrims” up and the donations flowing.
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

Yep, It's a double whammy. One is the maintenance and most importantly, they cannot afford dwindling visitors which emanates the wrong signals triggering a cascade effect all the way to individual centers.

It's a mammoth effort by the individual centers who've collectively pulled up these kind of numbers. The irony is, if it is a close knit Mafia gang, I understand the unity. But in this case, even the thousands of surrendered people are also duped who in turn work tirelessly to enroll more people!

I look forward to know the views of people who are around this portal from quite some time on a particular aspect about Golden Age which I raised in my previous post under the same topic/thread,....hypothetically speaking, if we are collectively soul conscious in Golden Age, we are like the driver inside the car and we are not the car (the example which is given during the course at the centers). If this is the case, where is the need to wear clothes or cover up the body where we clearly know body itself is the vehicle and the tool? (assuming the weather will also be just right in the Golden Age).
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

ex-l wrote:According to the Brahma Kumaris, there is no historical record older than 2,500 years and no history at all older than 5,000 years, and neither Borneo nor a non-vegetarian humanity existed at that time.

Who is right? Archaeologists and geochemists at Griffith University in Queensland, Australia or the uneducated Brahma Kumari leaders and their god spirit's utterances?

Vegetarianism was pushed to gain popularity and exclusivity and they managed to get the followers. One such example is Buddhism. Buddhism gained popularity in the Indian subcontinent when they coined this idea with a heady mixture of non-violence, bad karma, killing, and the same Buddhism relaxed the norms in China and preached Buddhism + non-veg in China and the results are there to see.

On a different note, I do agree vegetarianism is good when it comes to carbon foot print and all that, but it is totally absurd for a vegetarian to expect a non-vegetarian to fall in line.
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

ex-l wrote:Bizarrely, otherwise intelligent, rational and functional Westerners gradually come to accept the Brahma Kumaris' "knowledge" as their basis for life changing decisions

It could be because of the statistics and probability. Like in psychometric tests where they bifurcate all people into 6 categories, or like the general characteristics of a person under moon sign like Aries, Virgo, Cancer, or the culmination of other environmental upbringing, exposure, a failed attempt to understand Hinduism etc, etc ... with 700 Crores+ population, you will always find followers for any confident nut case leader. He has to be just confident, that's all it matters. The followers will see what they want to see.

There are always a bunch of people in any geography to listen to a leader or organization who've done their math and homework. "Double Foreigners" are so minuscule in number compared to the Indian followers and that makes them rational I guess (collectively they haven't fell for the trick (with all due respect to the people who were once following BK ism).

Again, there is a general tendency in India that "if white skinned, highly intelligent people are coming, it must be true" kind of blind belief among the people who generally lack reasoning in-spite of good education. You can only imagine the situation of those who are uneducated. On the other hand, Indians accept it relatively easily because of all the right sounds they make based on Hinduism. Plus they give a gateway and open a flood of opportunities like saying, "Last go fast/first" encouraging new bees to grind their bones!
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

Like I said earlier, 5,000 year cycle is one of their weak spots. Secondly like ex-l and many more people in the forum who've lived on this forum spending their valuable time, all these should not go waste. Documentation is very important. Especially so when an organization is giving false promises every 2 years for the last several decades. They could pull it because there is no documented history. All thanks to the internet and the connected world. 2036 it is, according to them and let the clock tick. Some of us or most of us may not make it till 2036, but the movement should continue like the baton passed on to the team mate in a relay race.
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Rajdhani

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

India may be third a world country according to international media, but it's not all that bad. All properties donated can be traced back. Everything is being digitized. Even data on the next generation of people whose parents or grand parents donated their everything can also be traced.

10 Lakh followers spread across India will hardly make any influence on elections and votes, so there will be almost zero support from the political parties. Yeah, they have good PR with local political leaders and some high level PR from Mt. Abu with national leaders, but that is not a great reason for the political parties because there is no benefit for them.
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Pink Panther

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post10 Dec 2018

Rajdhani wrote: all these should not go waste. Documentation is very important. Especially so when an organization is giving false promises every 2 years for the last several decades. They could pull it because there is no documented history

On this site is a library and archive section containing much of the literature, early Murlis, posters etc of the BK organisation that the BK themselves would like forgotten.
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ex-l

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Re: 40,000 year old figurative painting discovered in Borneo

Post11 Dec 2018

Rajdhani wrote:10 Lakh followers spread across India will hardly make any influence on elections and votes, so there will be almost zero support from the political parties ... that is not a great reason for the political parties because there is no benefit for them.

You raise good points and it is time to split them into new topics.

One sensible thing to do would be a small amount of market research into finding out how many BKs actually vote.

I'll bet you it is a tiny percentage as their own political interest, is in serving their own interests.

In their early days, and in their early Murli teachings, they were scathingly critical of Congress (and Gandhi) calling them traitors (against the British Royalty), and the "crow race".

Democracy, never mind Left Wing politics, is a sign of the world's impurity and ignorance according their god spirit, guru and leaders.

Royalty by divine right is the highest form for them.

I am amazed the BKs have not been analysed and criticised politically within India. Even publicly they lean to the Right. Typical low level, old school "Brahmins" sucking up to the rich and pwoerful landowners for the sake of sponsorship, offering their "services" of delivering a submissive, subserviant and disempowered lower classes.
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