The soul can fly

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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bansy

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The soul can fly

Post25 Apr 2007

We've come to simply accept the soul enters and leaves bodies.

How does the entity "soul" actually do that ? I mean, the soul is an invisible indivisible point of light so how does it migrate/transmigrate or whatever term is used for the movement of the soul ?

Any metaphysicists out there ?
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yudhishtira

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Post25 Apr 2007

In the Sakar Murlis, Shiva Baba says the soul is like a rocket, i.e. it can move very quickly and instantly from one place to the next. He refers to himself in this context too in saying that he doesnt hang around in BBs body the whole time but can move in and out between the Soul World and the corporeal world at will. In terms of taking rebirth, I personally feel that karmic connections would act like a magnet for the soul, from one body to the next, but I have no evidence of that.
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john

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Post25 Apr 2007

yudhishtira wrote: between the Soul World and the corporeal world at will.

Can you quote any parts of Murli where it says ShivaBaba can return to Soul World and back?
Bear in mind there are two things:
    1. What is in Murli.
    2. What you are told by the BKSWU or another BK.
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yudhishtira

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Post25 Apr 2007

I was reading this particular quote recently in a book you may have come across which has extracts from Sakar and Avyakt Murlis which all pertain directly to what Shiv Baba says about himself. Its a very powerful and beautiful compilation. I will dig it out and post it when I get a chance. I also remember reading this in a full Murli but am not sure if I know where to find it amongst the batches I have.
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john

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Post25 Apr 2007

yudhishtira wrote:I was reading this particular quote recently in a book you may have come across which has extracts from Sakar and Avyakt Murlis which all pertain directly to what Shiv Baba says about himself;

If it's a Jagdish Chander book, then I wouldn't take it as any authority. If it's directly from a Murli then that would be great to see. Which book is it?
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yudhishtira

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Post25 Apr 2007

Its not. It was compiled by a Brother Frederick who used to be based in GRC. I think he was French? I cant remember the exact title because my Hindi aint that good! Something like Satyam, Shiv somthing, Sunderam? I'll dig it out tonight. It was only produced about 6 yrs ago, and you can only get it in the literature shops in Madhuban.
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bansy

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Post25 Apr 2007

Shiva Baba says the soul is like a rocket, i.e. it can move very quickly and instantly from one place to the next.

This is still confusing. You mean the soul has some sort of a little engine at the back that propels it? Does the soul movie via energy vibrations? Or is there some magnetic energy involved. Is the theory of metaphysics just "made up" by humans to explain something we don't know?

Thus do we ACTUALLY know what a soul is ? It's something that's happened to be located just above and between your eyes but how and why does it get there? We happy to talk about it and accept it and say "Om Shanti" and happy to accept we are souls, but do we know what we are talking about ?
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yudhishtira

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Post25 Apr 2007

bansy wrote: do we ACTUALLY know what a soul is? It's something that's happened to be located just above and between your eyes but how and why does it get there ? We happy to talk about it and accept it and say "Om Shanti" and happy to accept we are souls, but do we know what we are talking about ?

When someone says "is like a" it generally indicates that they are using a metaphor, i.e. Shiva Baba is not saying the soul IS a rocket, but is like one. The similarities I would see would be in speed of movement, that the soul is NOT physical and there for is unlimited and can move instantly from one place in space time to another. Maybe if "Stargate" had been around at the time when that Murli was spoken, he might have said that the soul has its own "Chappa eye ..." (sorry to any non-Stargate nerds...).

I am sure if I dug around I could find lots of Murli refs to the nature of the soul. Certainly it is not physical in any way and cant be detected with physical instruments. I'll come back to you on that. Try and get you a list!
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john

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Post25 Apr 2007

bansy wrote:Thus do we ACTUALLY know what a soul is ? It's something that's happened to be located just above and between your eyes but how and why does it get there ? We happy to talk about it and accept it and say "Om Shanti" and happy to accept we are souls, but do we know what we are talking about ?

I think it has to be down to belief, even if somone says they experience themselves as a point of light and that is the soul, someone else from another spiritual path will say they experience themselves as something else. That is why I think an intellectually sound explaination of knowledge, life the universe is just as valid as experience.

Someone will say 'I know it's real because I experience so and so' and another person will say 'I know what I believe is real because I experience so and so' but they can be completely different things. I think the proof of the pudding will be as to which path can create the most happiness, peace, love, joy, purity, power.
This is still confusing. You mean the soul has some sort of a little engine at the back that propels it?

I know astral travellers say they can think of a place and then in an instant they arrive there. Thought power.
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button slammer

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Post26 Apr 2007

Bansy
We've come to simply accept the soul enters and leaves bodies. How does the entity "soul" actually do that ? I mean, the soul is an invisible indivisible point of light so how does it migrate/transmigrate or whatever term is used for the movement of the soul? Any metaphysicists out there ?

I remember thinking about this topic a few years ago, from what I can remember my conclusions at the time were along the lines of, the 'soul' is both the wave and the particle

The world around us is the result of the vibrations of mind and intellect. The point moves/dances and creates vibrations. Its as though the soul creates and percieves its creation in a simultaneous/instantaneous/syncronistic way which is why it is difficult to see ourselves as a point, because conciousness gets caught up in the projected aspect of itself and believes the external vibration to be reality. The soul can go like a 'rocket/ufo' to any universal location because the universe is an external vibration of our own soul. ie, the universe is a reflection of your own unique limitless self/mind.

Rocket/ufo is intellect/third eye, ability to view/see/understand both projected and inner conciousness. So the body and the movement of the soul between bodies is the result of ones own belief system/sanskar. 'As the final thought, so the destination'.

Our very own thought processes create the world around us, the more people think in the same way the more that world becomes fixed around us, our sanskars sustain the reality/illusion. 'We are coloured by the company we keep' If the soul is powerful/pure then it will influence the weaker souls around it, thereby altering our percecption of the world, primarily by refocussing/shifting the intellects awareness, eg from a universal, unlimited, egoless, cosmic oneness, to heart centered, unconditional, expansive, love energy, to demonic lust, greed etc.

This shift of awareness can be seen when we look at the picture of The Ladder for an overview of conciousness. One can also corroborate The Ladder with the (chakra)/energy/conciousness map of the human dimension. So, its not that we die and the soul 'travels' to a new place but the mind/intellect soul vibrates according to its sanskars and creates its own reality.

OK, this is from churning from a few years back, but I think you get the drift. :lol:
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arjun

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Post26 Apr 2007

Sister Yudhishtira wrote:In the Sakar Murlis, Shiva Baba says the soul is like a rocket, i.e. it can move very quickly and instantly from one place to the next. He refers to himself in this context too in saying that he doesnt hang around in BBs body the whole time but can move in and out between the Soul World and the corporeal world at will.

I have a Murli quote that speaks about the entry and departure of incorporeal Shiv from the body of the corporeal medium and also about his entry into the children:

"Yah BapDada dono hee combined hain na. ShivBaba gyaan detey hain fir chaley jaatey hain va kya hota hai, kaun bataaye. Baba say poochein kya aap sadaiv ho ya chaley jaatey ho? Baap say toh yah pooch nahee saktey hain na. Baap kahtey hain, mai tumko raasta bataata hoon patit say paavan honay ka. Aaun, jaaun, mujhey toh bahut kaam karney padtey hain. Bachhon kay paas bhi jaata hoon, unsay kaarya karaata hoon. Ismay sanshay kee koi baat na laaye. Apna kaam hai – Baap ko Yaad karnaa." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 23.12.05, page 3)

“This BapDada, both are combined, isn’t it? ShivBaba gives knowledge and then departs or what happens, who can say? If Baba is asked, ‘Do you remain (in this body) or do you go away? One cannot ask Father this question, isn’t it?’ Father says, ‘I show you the path to get transformed from a sinful one to a pure one. I may come; I may go; I have to do a lot of works. I also visit the children; I get work done through them. One should not raise any matter of doubt in this. Our job is to remember Father.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.12.05, page 3 published by BKs and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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bansy

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Post26 Apr 2007

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, I quite like the way john and button slammer put it. It is down to an belief in oneself. Almost as if "a soul will only realise what a soul is because it is".

I sort of raised this thread because another poster recently discovered the BKWSU google video of how Father Shiva floats down from "somewhere above" and into the body of Brahma Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani actor). We all seem to associate the soul as a single entity in itself. Pictorial images does not explain the soul very well. We know the soul is unlimited and in essence it is a universe within itself.

This thread also came by from some little children who asked me how big the soul is, why it can fly, and how come there were no strings holding it up :P. That was after watching a Pinnochio video, of course, where in the movie a fairy queen comes from the stars and flies through the air like a point of light, and when arrives on earth tranforms into a fairy queen mother. In the Disney version, bad children get long noses and become donkeys. In the grown up Raja Yoga version, bad children get kicked out of Golden Age :P :cry:.
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yudhishtira

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Post27 Apr 2007

Here we go; Satyam, Shivam, Sundaram (embodiment of truth, benovolent one, beautiful one - according to intro) prepared and compiled by BK Frederic Labarthe, GRC. Copyright 2001 BKWSU. (printed in Shantivan, Abu Road, India)

This is a compilation of extracts from Sakar Murli and Avyakt Murli relating to Shiv Baba. Apparantly the dates given for Sakar Murli are for the dates they were read at the time of this compilation. Some extracts were collected by FL before the idea of collecting a book arose and so do not have dates.

Under the section on "BapDada, the combined form";

"There are two souls: One is the Father and one is Dada. One soul takes 84 births and the other is beyond rebirth" (SM 30/06/01)

"I can come and go in one second. This one has his own soul and so, I do not have to stay in this body. The soul is the fastest of all rockets. It comes and goes in one second. The soul cannot fly because there is a burden of sins on it".

"This owner is sitting here all the time. Would two people constantly remain seated on one bull? Shiv Baba stays in His own region. When He comes, it doesn't take Him long to come. Look how fast a rocket is! It is faster than sound. The soul too is a tiny rocket. Look how fast the soul flies! It goes from here to London instantly. 'Liberation in life in a second' has been remembered. Baba Himself is also a rocket. He says: I come here to teach you. Then I go back to My home. I remain very busy at this time. I am the Bestower of divine vision. Therefore I have to please the devotees. I teach you"
(SM 29/07/00)

"Baba says: Children, I experience no happiness in being seated on this bull (Chariot) all the time. I just come to teach you children. It is not that I remain constantly seated on this bull. Would one remain seated on a bull day and night? His coming and going only takes a second. It isnt the law for Him to remain seated here all the time. Baba comes from so far just to teach us! That is his His home. He doesnt remain in this body throughout the whole day. He doesnt experience happiness in that. That would be like a caged parrot. I take this body on loan simply to explain to you (SM 29/07/00)

There is a huge amount in this book relevant to current discussion, so I will put other extracts in other threads. Its way too big to scan unfortunatly (319 pages and twice as big pages as the Dada book; I think they might notice at work if I did that!).
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yudhishtira

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Post27 Apr 2007

Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed this in another section;

"It is only when I enter an impure body at the Confluence Age that I am able to see you. I cannot see anything in My incorporeal form. The soul cannot do anything without organs. Baba says: How can I see? How can I talk to you without a body? ... It is only when I am in a body that I am able to do everything. It is only then that I am called Karankaraavanhar. Otherwise I cannot be called this. It is only when I enter this one that I make you pure. What would the soul do from up above? It can only play a part through the body."

SM 08/02/95
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arjun

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Post27 Apr 2007

Sister Yudhishtira,

Omshanti. Thanks for quoting all the Murli points. This is the first time any BK has come up with so many Murli quotes on this forum. Congratulations for taking this bold step. I hope you would would continue to make such valuable contributions. If you or any other BK member/reader of this forum still attends the BK classes, then they should try to keep a copy of the current Sakar Murlis as far as possible.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun[/quote]
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