XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

clay

When I first came to the BK's I was suprised at the number of souls who had bad relationships with their lokik family members.

I remember walking with a soul who told me she had finally managed to break free from her family and only saw them once a year. When she did see them the relationship was strained and she was glad to get away.She told me her mother had said she had lost her daughter to the Brahma Kumaris.

Another soul told me that she had finished her karma with her twelve year old daughter, so she was justified in leaving home.

A young father told me he was glad he did not see so much of his four year old because it was a distraction.

I always felt there was something wrong with this. What sort of spirituality is it that encourages mothers to leave their children, fathers to be glad to be away from their children.

What sort of spirituality encourages community life to take the place of family life?

Raj Yoga is the family path, the household path, where study takes place with the family. A family path that needs both a mother and father to be the head of it.

Community living, from my observation, is very much about living in isolation. No one must get friendly, so everyone acts in a most unatural way. Souls must actually be alone.

Is it any wonder so many BK's look unhappy?This is the observation made by a very senior soul. She was constantly telling souls to smile.

Why is this?

Do BK's in the west realise they are following the path of the Sanyassis?

Good Wishes

Clay

arjuna · Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject:

Om shanti Bhai!

Yes, it is strange isn't it why one would want to isolate.

This is definatley the path of the household which is what attracted me more to this knowledge.

Mind you there are souls (husbuands and wives) who do not understand or accept this knowledge and sometimes even beat there wives or husbuands because of this.

They try to creat alot of trouble for the soul who is in the knowledge.

These souls are brave souls,

Take Care,

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

I am a BK and I am still living with my corporeal family. One who understood gyan would not mistakenly understand that surrendering includes leaving the corporeal family to move into a center. Surrender means surrendering the self at soul level. When one is in a soul conscious state, one is in a completely surrendered state. The crowd within the Brahma Kumaris is huge and there are some who claim that a fully surrendered soul is one who has given up the corporeal family for moving into the center. Those who are interested in status would claim that since they are living in a center, it is they who are completely surrendered and that those who do not live in the center are only partially surrendered. Despite such views by those who seek status, I have understood gyan and I have understood what the surrendered state means based on the contents of the sakar and the avyakt murlis and based on my experiences. I know that God also entertains the crowd in front of Him with statements made to keep them happy. Thus, one has to pick the jewels out from the murlis. If one concentrates on picking the jewels out as murli points and concentrates on understanding them, one will not get misguided. If new souls were mixing with other new souls who were pretending to know and understand gyan, and if new souls were mixing with souls who were more interested in status, then one would be hearing statements and interpretations which helps the maker of the statement to enjoy the status which they seek.

One should be concerned about mixing with people who are not status-conscious but who are more interested in being soul-conscious and in being God-conscious. When one is soul conscious, one is God-conscious. When I say God-conscious, I am referring to the act of turning the mind and intellect towards God. This is why many want to keep the company of the Dadis or others who talk with experience. I am not claiming that I am the most experienced person. We are all still students and God is our Teacher but they were many BKs who appreciated my company because I do not repeat statements like a parrot and because I am not interested in status. Thus, my churning and understanding will not be such that it gives me status. I have never sat on the Gaddi because the Gaddi is associated with status. Gurus are sat on the gaddi because it high-lights his status. There were BKs who had tried to get me to sit on the gaddi and they would talk of how great it feels to sit on the gaddi. God is supposed to act through the one who sits on the gaddi like as if He never acts through the ones who sit on the floor. From what I have seen and based on the Hindu system where the leader/guru is given status through being placed on the gaddi, I refused to have anything to do with the gaddi. It can seem like as if the guru is living a very simple life because He is not driving a huge car etc but the fact that those around him do not see and treat him as a equal only shows that the guru is enjoying status. If the guru's attention turns towards anyone, it will be immediately taken that the one who has got the attention of the guru is so fortunate. This is the ways of those on path of the gurus. The person who is treated like how gurus are treated is not living a simple life. He is enjoying the status of being seen as a person of high status. One who is really living a simple life will be one in the crowd. If one wants to live a simple life, one has to make effort to remain as one in the crowd. When we have to do service, we move forward to do the service, but we have to remain as one in the crowd of being godly students. We are all students of God.

Anyway, focusing on a Point of Light increases one concentration and one learns to stay in yoga for long periods of time through that. However, this is not what Raja Yoga is all about. Raja Yoga is establishing and enjoying a relationship with God. Through Raja Yoga, we become more pure and thus we enjoy greater stability, peace, happiness and contentment. The first thing that one has to learn in order to become soul-conscious is to become introverted. Churning on knowledge takes one within and this is one method used by the Brahma Kumaris to go within. Enjoying God's Company by seeing and experiencing all His divine virtues and powers is another method. Actually, this is also churning on gyan. One cannot just sit and visualise a Point of Light, one has to converse with God and one has to see oneself absorbing His vibrations. One has to experience receiving His vibrations with pure feelings. At first this will be just thoughts but these thoughts will take one within and one will then enjoy it in reality. The experiencing of the highest state would only be for a second but it's effects last for a long long time. When one begins with thoughts of experiencing God's sweet vibrations, the thoughts takes one within (ie one becomes introverted) and one can actually enjoy God's Pure vibrations. There are lots more that BKs are taught in an attempt to enable them to easily attain a soul-conscious state. It will not be possible for me to relate all that I have learnt over many many years, within a few seconds here.

As I had stated earlier, it can take sometime for some souls to experience something. One who has already learnt the art of going within, will find it very very easy to enjoy a relationship with God. Fortunately, I was already involved in the practice of becoming introverted even before I came to gyan. Thus, after I came to gyan, effort making, experiencing the gyan in the murlis and experiencing God's company was very easy for me.

Some souls will find it easier to go within because the soul might already have the ability to go within and thus one is able to easily experience that which one is being taught. For others, it takes a longer time because the soul has not learnt and mastered the art of going within (of becoming introverted). There are many ways through which one can become introverted. If God is sitting in the corporeal body of the chariot, then one can take this opportunity to go within. One can easily go within through just a little effort. One has to just remove all the waste thoughts from one's mind and one has to entertain only the virtues, powers, gyan or concentrate on seeing God, as the Point of Light instead of seeing and being taken in by the corporeal body of the chariot. Another way is to sit within a gathering of BKs or a soul who is in a high stage and to just allow oneself to experience the spirituality in that gathering while concentrating on the virtues and powers that is within the self/soul. Actually, so many methods are taught in the Brahma Kumaris. One who has not attended the programmes for sustenance of BKs has missed a lot. The programmes for new comers do not concentrate on many methods or yoga experimentations to go within. It will not be possible for me to teach everything that I have been taught over many, many years with just a few words.

Souls who do not have the opportunity to experience and develop through the yoga experimentation programs held in the Brahma Kumaris, can use other methods when one is doing it alone without the help of a soul who is in a high stage or without the help of a gathering of souls who are in a powerful stage.

One can do it as Hanuman has done it. He has combined the �relaxation techniques, which helps one to become introverted (to go within)� to �contemplating on gyan� and so he is able to establish his link to God and is able to experience God's Company very easily. Before gyan, I was involved with hatha yoga meditation. I would be on a vegetarian diet and sometimes on a fruit and juice diet and I would do the asanas (hatha yoga exercises) while concentrating on becoming introverted. The asanas helps to put the corporeal body in a healthy state and thus there will be less pulls on the soul. This helps one when one is trying to become introverted. When there are less pulls on the soul, it is easier to go within. But it has to be noted that slowly, with time, one has to learn to go within even when there are very strong pulls from the corporeal body. With time, as we become more powerful, we will be able to do this.

Before gyan, when I was dieting while doing the asanas, the fruit and juice diet would cleanse the digestive system and so there will be even less pulls on the soul. Meat is difficulty to digest and so there would be a lot of pulls on the soul. Vegetarian food is easier to digest and so there will be less pulls on the soul. There are BKs who had told me that they were able to have very good experiences even though they were not vegetarians. Initially, at the beginning of my BK life, I was also not a vegetarian and I could also have very good experiences at that times. However, when we eat meat we are encouraging people to kill animals for our consumption and this is actually a sin because the animal experiences pain when it is killed. Further, from experiences before gyan, I knew that one would find it easier to become introverted if one was a vegetarian. Thus, I chose to become a vegetarian and have remained a vegetarian.

After having a discussion with Hanuman sometime back on the Tao of Raja Yoga, I had experimented with doing the asanas while contemplating on gyan. In fact, I was teaching this to my tenants and I found that they were able to easily become introverted and enjoy a high spiritual stage through contemplating on gyan through this method. I had put the asanas to music and it is a known fact that one can easily become relaxed through hearing music. This was one of the reasons why I turned the asanas into dance movements with music. My tenants were able to enjoy a very very divine stage when they were doing the asanas with music while contemplating on the murli point that they were souls or while contemplating on receiving God's vibrations and enjoying those vibrations, etc. They were easily enjoying the pure divine state. I have stopped doing this because it was taking a lot of my time even though my tenants were constantly asking me to continue. I would tell them to do it on their own. One who wants to become relaxed so as to easily become introverted while contemplating on gyan, can also use this method.

The evenings and the early morning hours are times when one can easily go within.

One could also meditate among nature. Animals have souls but plants do not. They are just light energy. There can never be any Maya/Ravan in plants/nature. Thus, one who is sitting in a park etc and concentrates on experiencing God's company while sitting in that environment would be more successful in becoming introverted and he would find it easier to experience God�s company in reality. The experiences begins with a thought which takes one within and thus allows one to experience in it on the spiritual level. When one is trying to go within, one must not entertain the vices. One must only entertain the virtues and powers. Maya always opposes and will not allow us to go within if our aim is to become spiritual and to entertain God. If the reason why we want to become introverted was to use the vices so as to cause harm to others, then Maya will help us to become introverted. But the aim of a child of God is to entertain God and not to entertain Maya, and so Maya will be fiercely opposing us in our attempts. One has to learn to keep Maya away from one's mind when one wants to entertain God. This is why, I have always said that criticisms are not going to help to put us in a high stage.
Sorry, I have to go and cook now. It is already late.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

clay · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:49 am Post subject:

bkry says,

"The crowd within the Brahma Kumaris is huge and there are some who claim that a fully surrendered soul is one who has given up the corporeal family for moving into the center"

Isn't it true though that the'powers' within the organisation subscribe to that view.They themselves attribute considerable status to those living in centres.

The centre residents are considered to be 'the real' family

However living in a community in a centre is not the family path of Raj Yoga. It's not the household path.

So what is it?

The BK path in the west is certainly the path of isolation. It certainly does not seem to be easy Raj Yoga. In fact it doesn't seem to be Raj Yoga at all.

Good Wishes

Clay

sevasena · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:17 pm Post subject:

om shanti---brothers and sisters,

There are quite a lot of divorces taking place in the B.K world if any one of the spouse is a non-b.k.

Whereas in the P.B.K world, there is no such separations amidst the spouses eventhough if any of one the spouse is a non-p.b.k.

Baba sternly forbids the pbks to sue for divorces against their spouse who is a non-pbk. Baba says never leave your family. Be with your family and become perfect. That's the challenge.

Brahmins are the role models for the physical world. To live with the family and make the living home a paradise.

God doesn't teach or encourages divorces but He teaches Raj Yog ( i.e family path ). He says stay within the family and live a lotus flower life.

om shanti---peeu

clay · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject:

Dear peeu,

you say

"Baba says never leave your family. Be with your family and become perfect. That's the challenge." This surely is the greatest challenge of all. The family members are the ones who bring out the sanskars, the ones who need the most tolerance shown to them. It's easy to be with people for a short time, but to live with others in close proximity, and play family roles is indeed challenging.

However surely these are the very obstacles we need for personal growth. I have seen so many parents leave their families and take up roles in centres where they have been showered with attention according to their usefulness and degree of economic wealth. They leave the family path and move to the path of isolation.

Children are left behind with only one parent, but maybe this is a reflection of the BK belief that only one parent is necessary?

Good Wishes

Clay

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Actually, my role is not that of being a spokesman for the Brahma Kumaris. It is also not my role to defend the Brahma Kumaris. My role only involves my going wherever God takes me and it involves saying and doing whatever God tells me to say and do. But I am allowed to speak my mind at other times.

It is my view that if the PBKs prefer to stay on the path of criticisms, that is their choice. They can do whatever they want to do. One can make criticisms but one has to be careful to not make defamatory statements. If one has made defamatory statements and the courts have taken the decision that the statements are defamatory, then the ones who made the defamatory statements can be told to make an apology in a similar manner to which the defamatory statements were made. If the ones who were defamed suffered monetary losses as a result of the defamation, then the ones who made the defamatory statements will have to pay those monetary losses as damages to the ones who suffered it. It has to be remembered that the Brahma Kumaris are spending a lot of money on service. If the defamatory statements made by the PBKs had made some of those money spent go to waste, then the PBKs might be held liable to pay that money back as damages. One has a right to make fair comments but one can't make defamatory statements.

The seniors/admin/teachers of the Brahma Kumaris constantly keep telling the BKs that they should not fight with their corporeal family members to come or to move into a center. BKs are told that they have to consider the place where they stay and work as their place of service. The BKs are told that they should take whatever situation they are placing in the homes and work place as test-papers and they have to pass these test papers. The BKs are never encouraged to leave their corporeal family homes to move into a center or to come to the centers. In fact, they are advised that they should not do this. This is the teachings and the practice of the Brahma Kumaris. However, there are many who fight with their corporeal family members to come to the Brahma Kumaris to hear classes and there may also be those who fight to start a center or to move into a center. The present world is such that the legal laws of the country and the legal rights of adults have to be considered. One cannot treat adults like children. Adults have their legal rights and if BK teachers etc do something in breach of these rights, this will also not look good.

The current world is not the world of the past where the consent of the parents have to be sought before the children (who are already adults) can do anything. This has also got to be noted. I had once questioned the President of the Brahma Kumaris Malaysia as to what rights he had to contact the corporeal family members of BKs when he should be dealing with the BKs themselves because adults have legal and social rights, and these rights have to be respected.

Making defamatory statements about the Brahma Kumaris as an institution based on the bad conduct of a few members will, in my opinion, be considered as defamatory statements by the courts. I have seen defamatory statements in the PBK murlis too. It has to be remembered that God is not always sitting inside the corporeal body of Virendra. It is only sometimes that He is there. So Virendra cannot take the defence that God is entering him to cover up for all the defamatory statements that he has made in an attempt to turn members away from the Brahma Kumaris and in an attempt to turn them away from the teachings of the Brahma Kumaris. If one wants to make fair comments, one has to careful when making them. They have to understand what really is happening in the Brahma Kumaris before making such statements about the Institution on a general basis. I am not sure as to whether defaming the Institution can be considered as defaming the members of the Institutions. I think, it can be taken as defaming the members as well. Just blindly making statments about the BK institution on a collective basis can be defamatory. If one makes comments on the conduct of a few members, then that is a different matter. But be careful, even when making defamatory statements about people. Make sure that it is based on what they have done so as to turn it into a fair comment.

Anyway, I will be in Abu Road (opposite Shantivan) in November and December 2005. That time is not very far away. So I will not be participating in this forum until I come back in January 2006. For my own sake and for the sake of all those people who come to Mount Abu to enjoy the power of the gathering there, I have to stay away from this forum until January 2006. Actually, this is going to give me a real test paper because whenever I have free time, I will be wondering as to what the people here are talking about and I will be come and sit here in front of the computer. Let's see how victorious I am in passing this test paper.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Arjuna · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject:

Omshanti.

Pointing out the violations of Shrimat as given in the murlis and Avyakta Vanis published by the BKs cannot be termed as defamation of any institution. But I agree that while pointing out the mistakes of any institution we must be guarded in the usage of words so that our message is conveyed to the violator of Shrimat without hurting the sentiments of anyone. And one should also be careful in choosing the words so as to avoid any legal problem. Hence, while pointing out any violation of Shrimat by the BKs, it would be better for the PBKs to back up their statements with murli points. Since extensive quoting of murli points is against the rules of this forum, the PBK members can quote a couple of short murli points or even if they are making only statments without quoting murli points, they should at least keep in mind the relevant murli points while making statements. This will ensure safety from legal complications.

By the way, I would like to quote a statement of BK Pari:
"I had once questioned the President of the Brahma Kumaris Malaysia as to what rights he had to contact the corporeal family members of BKs when he should be dealing with the BKs themselves because adults have legal and social rights, and these rights have to be respected."

I would like to humbly know how a particular BK Sister of Malaysia could acquire the title of "President of the BKs, Malaysia", when a recent sakar revised murli dated 2.6.05 published by BKs themselves says that "Both Bap and Dada are the servants of children. You have two servants, the highest among all, i.e. Shivbaba and then Prajapita Brahma".

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjuna

sevasena · Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:59 am Post subject:

om shanti---sister pari,

I presumed that the pbks are not pointing a finger or defaming the bks. We just told the truth about what has happened. Recently a friend of mine attended the seven days course in a bk centre. After completing the course, she was asked by the centrewasi, "do you still need your husband?" She was shocked and vowed not to step into Raj Yog institution again. She asked me whether Raj Yog studies encourages to separate spouses. A another centrewasi told to my lokik bk sister a few years ago, if she has the courage to divorce her husband who was obstructing her path to follow this study, then she can very well go ahead and divorce him.

When Shivbaba has never mentioned that a brahmin can file for divorce, if his/her spouse gives obstacles to follow this study, then who gave the authority to the brahmin world to encourage divorces amongst spouses?

om shanti---peeu

uddhava · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham

clay · Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:49 am Post subject:

Dear bkry,

You make some good points, it certainly was not my intention to defame.

However you are right in bringing this to my attention.

So if this has caused upset I sincerely apologise.

My question however continues regarding isolation.

How can people feel isolated if they are on the family path?

Good Wishes

Clay

clay · Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject:

The reason for starting this topic was to really look at the differences of what is being taught by the Organisation the Brahma Kumaris and what is being taught by the PBK's.

I can remember an instance in class some time ago when a forthcoming programme was being discussed.

The person who was to be the speaker at the programme was taking class, and she wanted to know who was attending the programme. People raised their hands.

The speaker picked on a brother who was actively engaged in alot of practical work for the BK's at that time, she asked why he was not coming.

He did not get the chance to reply, but she indicated strongly that he should attend her programme, and that should be his priority then she said,

"let's see if your a yogi or a householder"

The implication behind this comment is that a yogi is different, in fact superior to a householder. It was clear she was telling the brother that her programme was more important that his family commitments

The yogi leading the programme is not a householder.

Yet Raj Yoga is the household path.

So I ask the BK's., what path is being taught by their leadership?

Good Wishes

Clay

Dharani · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:27 am Post subject:

Omshanthi!

I agree with clay views. Yes. Raja yoga is the household path.

Baba says in the murali, "The sanskars one is used to have in his lovkik life the same sanskars he will show in alovkik life also". So it will be easy for anyone to see himself what kind of person he is.

Dharani.

sevasena · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject:

OM shanti Bhai!

So how many are in the household path?

Take Care,

Dharani · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject:

OmShanthi!

Mother, father & the children.

Dharani