XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

I am glad Paul opened up this topic. The responses have been quite an eye opener.

Bkry, do you think that your views of blacks are the norm in the BK movement? In other words, in your opinion, do most BKs view blacks that way? Did you, or any of your relatives, ever have negative personal experiences with blacks, either in Africa or in other places?

Kevin, my last question, above, also applies to you. You say that there are relatively few blacks in the BK movement. That may be true in Europe but not in other parts of the world - eg Africa and the Caribbean. But even if it is generally true, we should not jump to conclusions as to why it is so. It could well be explained by:

(1) The blacks pick up on a heavy Indo-Euro centric vibe emanating from the BKs....and so don't feel a strong sense of welcome and respect.....they also see very few blacks members, and that reinforces that feeling that its an Indian and white thing......so they don't join.

(2) Those blacks who do take the plunge and get involved with the BKs find that they are relegated to second or third class status. They are not credited for their contributions as readily as the whites are, and they are very seldom selected to be public speakers and representatives for the BKs. They are kept in the background and are definitely not the public face of the BKs.

Like everything else, these things are not hidden forever. Word eventually gets out, and the grapevine says: "If you are black and get involved with the BKs, you can expect a rough ride".

Casa, my compliments on your honesty in admitting that discrimination is widespread in the movement.

To be balanced, let me recall what was told to me by someone who visited Mount Abu in December 2000. In Shantivan, Baapdada met with senior brother Jagdish on the stage. It was to be the last public meeting. Jagdish had been very ill and he left his body some months after this meeting. There was also on the stage a black African sister from Kenya. I am not sure if she was a "pakka" BK, but she is an expert in homeopatic medicine, about which a lot is known in Africa, and had been treating Jagdish for some time. This was mentioned over the PA system and Baapdada expressed appreciation to her, for treating Jagdish. Baapdad then gave this black sister (who was dressed in white) a large and beautiful bouquet of flowers, in appreciation.

Have any of you ever received such flowers from Baapdada?

Guest · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:29 am Post subject:

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Movements within the movements are OK. But there are movements outside the movement. When I was doing temple service, a soul told me that he had been given this knowledge in a particular place which was unknown to all of us. I was relating it to a BK and I was told that such movements outside the Brahma Kumaris are not recognised. I had just gone beyond and had not argued. It would be nice to see BKs united through some common idea like for example, we are all doing Godly service and there is no need to try to bring God's children from one movement into another. I think we should try to accept each other as they are, i.e. as instruments of God because that is what they are.

One must agree that the system within the Brahma Kumaris had helped tremendously with expansion. No one can say that this is not true. I was told that there are about a million souls within the Brahma Kumaris now and we have to accept that the system had helped to bring in this big number. There is great benefit in whatever is happening.

One cannot deny that one can see instances of struggling for status within the Brahma Kumaris. No one has become perfect and so it is happening. The next alternative, if one does not want to get involved in this mad rush for status is to just do whatever service one can in whatever way one can. We should not expect status within the Brahma Kumaris. We should do service for the sake of earning a spiritual income and at the same time, keep ourselves entertained. I know that it is easy to have God's company when we do service because He keeps an eye on those who are doing service so as to move them when it is necessary. This is one of the reasons why I like doing service. Let us take our minds off the fact that some are gaining status etc in the Brahma Kumaris and understand that God has told us that at the end there will be those who will be involved in administration while there will also be others who have become very powerful. These powerful ones will be sought after by souls because their presence will make them feel peaceful.

Anyway, Blacks should move forward instead of just sitting around waiting to be acknowledged. I know that there are many BKs who are just sitting around hoping and waiting for the day when the seniors would claim them to be great souls. However, it has also got to be noted that it not easy to do service in a group sometimes because of the settling process. Thus, those who tolerate are awarded in certain ways. One should not criticise such things as we have to understand that BKs have not reached their perfect state yet.
I have noticed that sometimes, it is the quiet ones who are really knowledgeable and good effort makers. I had liked talking to them because their experiences throws power into what they are saying. They are usually very sweet and understanding too. On the other hand, those who are busily trying to get status within the Brahma Kumaris often just repeat "gyan and the ways of the system" like parrots. True BKs don't just repeat like parrots. One will be able to see this when one interacts with them. Thus, one should ask, "Should the Blacks be told to try to become powerful souls or should they be told to seek status within the Brahma Kumaris so that it will seem like as if they are leading the Brahma Kumaris".
If they become powerful souls, they will be leading at the end when people seek them for the fact that the soul within that corporeal body is so powerful that one can feel peaceful while in their presence. So which is better, "Status" or "Spiritual Power".
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

casa · Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 12

Dear bkry,

i'm going to go 'benefit of the doubt' on this post of yours. I'm thinking that maybe there's a language and cultural thing that could be getting in the way of me reading your post correctly. I hope so. And...

If so, some of what you say is right on the mark and even inspiring.

If not, I'm afraid your post reads as unconsciously bigoted.

So as I say, i'm going for inspired! Very Happy

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

When I had gone to Madhuban for the first time, one of the BKs was telling me that it was amazing to see such and such a person in the Brahma Kumaris, as a BK, since they had high social status, were of high caste etc. I was shocked and confused to hear such a thing. Later, in Malaysia a BK started asking me about my working background etc. When I had informed her that I was a lawyer, she was shocked and asked me as to why I had not told that to anyone. I was advised to tell things which would show that I was educated and was from a family which had good social status etc. She explained how such things were helping to bring in new souls and I accepted that what she was saying was true because things like these were influencing some. It can be said that the Brahma Kumaris were fortunate that the initial group were from the Brahmin caste because if they had not been, the Brahma Kumaris might not have developed to what it is now. God's children in the Brahma Kumaris are a family and this spiritual family will definitely change its system as the people of the Kaliyug world change their views and ideas . In fact, the Kaliyug people are changing. Let me narrate what has happened in my corporeal family circle to show this. During my ancestors time, no one from another caste or from another race / religion could enter into our home. Then, my grandfather had come to Malaysia in the 19th century. It was British rule in Malaysia at that time and my grandfather was one of the first few to come to Malaysia. There were not many relatives around and my grandfather would bring whites into the home. My grandmother would watch them closely. Then, as soon as the whites have left and are out of sight, my grandmother would move everything the whites had touched outside the house and she would wash the house and those things which they had touched. Things like this do not happen anymore. Laziness and the fact that people were changing their views and ways had changed it. In the 20th century Malaysia got independence and the whites went back. However, this country is filled with a lot of Indians, Chinese, Malays etc. The influence of the other races has helped to change the views and ways of the relatives in my family circle. When Malaysia got its independence in 1957, a lot of our relatives were in Malaysia. Then, something new came up. One of the girls among our relatives changed her religion by going into the Bahai faith. Relatives started saying that it was only the people of the lower caste who would change their religion because they wanted to get out of being a member of the low caste. Then, another new thing cropped up. The girl who had changed her faith wanted to marry an Indian who was of a low caste. Relatives were against this but my corporeal family accepted her decision and we started our journey to go for her wedding. On the way, as we were visiting relatives, they were saying all sorts of things to stop us from going to the wedding. They were even saying that the family members and friends of the bridegroom had informed them that they would chop off their hands and heads if they came for the wedding etc. This still had not stopped us and we continued our journey to the bride's mother's home. There we found that the bride’s family were saying similar things and advised us not to go for the wedding. We finally decided not to go because our safety was important. Later, the newly weds had visited us and my relative was saying that she expected us to come and questioned us as to why we did not come. We explained what had happened. She said that her husband’s friends and relatives did not say that they would harm us and that this story was a creation of our relatives. We would visit her, even though her own family members were not visiting them. Now, her family members have accepted her because the views and ways in our family circle has changed. In the 1970s, a sister of mine wanted to marry a citizen of India (a Sindhi - Brahmin). My mother objected to the marriage saying that relatives would not accept it. My sister advised the man whom she wanted to marry (Ashok) to contact one of my brothers and he did that. My brother then asked Ashok if his family were agreeable to this marriage. Ashok informed him that they were agreeable to it and that they liked my sister very much. So, after communications with them, my corporeal brother took my sister to his house saying that he was taking her there for a visit. He had then sent her off (alone) to India to Ashok's place. "Attachment" made my mother and other members of my corporeal family, to go to India for the wedding. They participated in, and attended, the wedding and, later, came back. Then, we were having a very difficult time with relatives. They began spreading the rumour that my sister had married a Muslim when we were trying to say that it is alright since he was of a good caste. Then, another of my sisters informed us that she was going to get married to a white (Paul). My mother and eldest sister were sent to England to bring her back. Paul and his family entertained them. They were quite rich. Then, my sister and Paul (on the suggestion of my sister) had run off and got married. They, then, came back and informed my mother that they were now legally married. Not knowing what to do, my mother had asked the couple to come with her to Malaysia, for a visit. The couple came back with her. We were living in a huge bungalow at that time and there were ample rooms for them to stay in. But my mother told them that there was not enough place and that my sister had to stay with her while Paul was requested to stay with one of my married brothers in his house. Later, my mother started informing my sister that our relatives would not accept this marriage. My mother wanted my sister to stay with her and she wanted Paul to go back to UK alone. I was shocked to see all this happening as my mother would always be telling her daughters that they should do whatever their husbands tell them to do etc. Separation and divorce were looked down upon. Yet, my mother was advising separation in this situation. From this, one could understand that it is not easy to do something that one's community / family circle does not accept. The same thing applies to everyone (on earth) I think. My sister and Paul began to get very depressed. Then, one day, my sister went into a hysterical state during a conversation with my mother. One of my brothers slapped her in an attempt to bring her out of that but it made the situation worse. She started running out of the house and she was running away without taking anything. Luckily, my eldest brother was coming back from work at that time. She was running down the road when he saw her. He stopped his car on seeing her. He told her that he would send her and Paul back together to UK. My sister became calmer and she got into his car. My eldest brother came back to the house and started screaming at the brother who had slapped her. He informed him that if he ever did that again, he would break his neck. Then, he took my sister to my brother's house where Paul was staying. Both those brothers then entertained them and made them happy before sending them back to UK. Later, one day, my uncle (alone) visited us. "Attachment for his daughter" had brought him to us. He was one of those who was scolding us saying that every Tom, Dick and Harry was going to start saying that they were related to us because of the way my family were behaving. But now, he was smiling and seemed eager to be part of my family. Then, one day, he told us that his daughter has informed him that she wanted to marry an Australian. He knew that we would say that it was alright and we knew that this was why he had visited us. We decided to brainwash him for his own benefit, since that was what he had come seeking (though he didn't say that) and since it was also our view that we have to change as the times change. He allowed his daughter to marry the Australian. Later, other relatives started marrying people of other races and it is now just accepted. In the late 1980s (I think) one of my brothers converted into a Christian but he would tell relatives that he was still as Hindu at heart and would give all sorts of reasons for his conversion. Recently, a relative who had migrated to England from Sri Lanka had converted into a Christian. I was surprised to see that it was just accepted. I was also surprised that no relative had questioned my going into the Brahma Kumaris. I had wondered if the reason why no one had questioned was because the initial group had been Brahmins. Maybe, another reason was that the peoples' ways and views are changing and are still changing. What I have related is just an instance to show that things have changed and that they are still changing. It is easy to advise BKs to change the system but the process of changing the system is not easy. It involves service, the reaction of the community towards that change etc.
From the story that I have narrated I hope you will try to understand that it is not so easy to change people, especially the eastern community. The westerners change quite quickly and this has influenced others because, currently, it is the kingdom of the Christians. With time, people will change and as they change the system in the Brahma Kumaris will change. BKs are using the current system to do service. Thus, it would not be easy to get them to change it but if we take initiatives to do something to change it, things will slowly change. Actually, I am very happy that this topic had started here. It is my view that it may be one of the things that might / would help bring about changes, not only in the Brahma Kumaris but (hopefully) also in the world at large. One senior BK had once told that whatever is happening in the Brahma Kumaris is a reflection of what is happening outside. I would say that the system is a reflection of what it is like in the Kaliyug world.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

Just checking in briefly. Glad to see that this topic has garnered so many (and varied) replies. Quite enlightening...or perhaps "revealing" would be a better word.

By the way, has anyone heard about the "Sidis" of India. They are of African origin. You can read about them at this website:

http://www.nigeriamasterweb.com/special.html

The Sidis live (a tenuous existence) in Gujarat....the land of Gandhi....communal riots ....and umpteen BK centres. I wonder if the BKs have had any "outreach" spiritual programs for the Sidi community.

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

God has told us that the true Aryans (true deities) were in India. Though, in Heaven, all the people all over the world were Aryans, it is those around the River Jamuna who are the true Aryans. The fact that this group, around the River Jamuna in the Copper Age, were powerful is even shown by the fact that the Aryans in that area were able to mix with people who were darker (after the human bodies started changing colour because of the imperfect state of the human body and because of interferences with the human genes by scientist of that time). It was because they had great quantities of the virtues of being able to adopt and adjust that those Aryans, in the Copper Age, were able to adopt, adjust, mix and marry with the darker ones.

It has to be noted that Aryans were white, had black hair, black eyes and sharp features. They did not have coloured eyes and blond hair like albinos / mutants. Neither could their skin have freckles and look like diseased skin.

Just because the weaker Aryans, who were living very far away from the River Jamuna, were able to maintain the Aryan looks does not mean that they were the true Aryans. It was because of their weaker state that they were not able to mix at that time in the Copper Age. I wouldn't be surprised if the souls of those weaker Aryans had taken subsequent births in India, thus allowing the new souls (from the soul world) to use those corporeal bodies. This explains the white's ability to adopt and adjust now. They could not do it in the past but are able to do it now because of the views and ways of the new souls who would have better abilities to adopt and adjust. Everything happens as per the drama and there can be a reason why it is happening in the way that it is. Baba has told us that the most powerful ones are now the most tamopradhan ones. They only became most tamopradhan in Kaliyug (espacially at the end of Kaliyug). Thus, their tamopradhan state may have helped the caste system to be practiced to extremes now. If this had happened, it has also happened as per the drama. Instead of getting angry that it is like that now, it would be better if one tries to do something to change it. One has to do this with love and with a peaceful state. If one shows anger, it might only help to emerge the anger in the other person and so the matter might only get worse. It has to be remembered that no one has attained their perfect state as yet.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

I think maybe I'm missing something here. Soul consciousness involves moving beyond attachment and body consciousness, right? Isn't thinking of a country or a center as 'my country' 'my center' attachment? Isn't feeling that people should behave a certain way in 'my country' 'my center' and being angered when people don't attachment? Sure, some basic rules to protect the physical safety of others need to be enforced, but the issues raised here go FAR beyond that.

The idea of 'race' is a joke from a scientific standpoint (see Steve Olson's 'Mapping Human History: Genes, Race and Our Common Origins'). Someone who is 'white' one place is viewed as 'black' in another. There are no genetic markers between so-called races. Just think of how many great,great, great, grandparents we all have and how that number rises exponentially as we go back in time linking each of us to each other across all continents. Just look at India -invaded repeatedly by groups coming out of Central Asia who in turn have a history of mingling with Middle Easterners and Europeans. Fact is we�re all mutts, no matter how many stories we make up to conceal this fact.

Yeah, yeah I know -science vs. God's word. But please correct me here, isn't the vision of humanity presently provided by geneticists a much more soul conscious one than the one where 'God' finds it important to make note of who the 'true Aryans' are? Shouldn't God be telling us the history of how we became body consciousness enough to start constructing racial categories and a caste system rather than trying to reinforce the notion of dark=impure?

Maybe I just don't get it, but B.K. knowledge seems very contradictory.

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Guest · Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:57 am Post subject:

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

Bkry, I've glad you have a good relationship with Baba despite the persons you've encountered at your center. And no, as you and Kevin point out it's not right to expect all Brahmin's to be perfect. We all still have vices.

The person in charge of the center I attended wasn't always tolerant or benevolent. But looking back, I also realize how much of her time and money had been poured into the center. Though I don't like some of the things she did, I'm grateful for her sacrifice and can understand how it might have pushed her to be less than soul conscious.

Guest · Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject:

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Actually, I have also seen how BKs have poured all their money into running a center. This is one of the reasons which would make me feel that it is not fair to try to take authority away from them as how others often tend to do (because of being influenced by their vices). This may also be one of the reasons why there is a gathering of senior BKs who are trying to maintain control, over the Brahma Kumaris, amongst themselves. I would think that if the system changed something extra must be given to those who have given all their money etc to the Brahma Kumaris; though according to knowledge, BKs should not separate the giver from God, i.e. BKs should consider them to be God's instruments and that this was why they were able to do that. But then, there have been situations (I think) where people have left after giving everything to Baba. According to most Kaliyug laws, in most countries, this would be considered as charity and so they would not be able to claim it back. Further, neither do the Brahma Kumaris still have that money. If they decided to give it back, they will have to take the money from another person to do that. Now BKs give their money to the Brahma Kumaris for service and not to be given off to people just like that. So senior BKs do not have any right to just do anything with the money that comes into the Brahma Kumaris. If they are not too careful, some body-conscious BK might begin a legal suit against them for misuse of funds. Even if the money is still there, it is money that has been given to the organisation for charitable purposes and once money is given away as charity, one can't ask it back. So probably, the Dadis are trying to make sure that those who give money, get something back in return now itself, e.g. status, fame, authority, gifts etc. This reminds me of a situation where I had helped to type the material out for a book which a centerwasi was getting done. I had specifically told the centerwasi that I did not want any gift etc for the work. I had told him that I would prefer to get the returns as spiritual income which would make us more powerful. But when we had gone to Madhuban, he had informed Dadi Janki that it was me who had typed it out. Dadi had immediately given a gift which was to be given to me. His obedience had just made him take the gift and he was showing it to me while looking unsure as to what to do. I took the gift. I still have it.

You know, if I had been a weak soul, when things were not going too well, I might have screamed, "You know, I did this. I did that.... And what have I got in return? Etc". Fortunately, I still value everything that I have done for Baba. So I have not said this yet and I hope I never make statements like that. But some people can make statements like that. I have heard BKs making such statements

Anyway, if I could think that something extra should be given to those who have given everything to Baba, then one could also understand why the Dadis favour authority to be given to those who have given off everything to the Brahma Kumaris. One should try to understand why the Dadis try to make sure that these people fall within the gathering of BKs who have authority within the Brahma Kumaris. What would you do in such a situation? Before I came to gyan, I was thought to place myself in the situation of the other before making judgments. There is no need for me to do this now because I am training myself to just accept it that Baba is doing everything and I just try go beyond. It is easy to say that if I were that person, I would not do this etc. No one else has experienced everything that the people who have been given authority, in the Brahma Kumaris, have faced. Thus, how would one know of everything that are being faced. Senior BKs would never tell you that they are facing problems. They would just take the problems as a test paper and would prefer to not talk about it. Thus, one can suggest changes but one has to understand that it is easy to talk but not so easy to do. There are many who do seriously practice this godly knowledge. But then, there are also a lot of weak souls within the Brahma Kumaris now. Do those on the path of bhakti not have any right to come within the gathering of the Brahma Kumaris so that they can feel good? This reminds me of a few situations. The first one is one where a qualified, trained nurse had told me that she comes into the gathering of the Brahma Kumaris and practices what we say because it helps to get her out of the depressive state which she has got into. She told me that she only comes into the gathering for about 3 months at a time because by that time, she would be OK again. When I first saw her, she looked as if she needed to see a psychistrist. The second situation is where my sister-in-law had told me that her brother had gone into a depressive state where he started to just sit in one place, in the house, and would not move around (and so he did not also go for work). Then, someone suggested that they take him to the Brahma Kumaris. They did so and he had gone back to the normal state and had started working also. Then, they began to get worried that he might get too seriously involved with the Brahma Kumaris and I think they got him out of the Brahma Kumaris. The third situation is how a few students began to come regular for meditation and to hear classes from me in the godly home which I have set up. They would make it seem like as if they are there because it makes them feel good and takes them out of their depressive state. This did not make me too happy because I have a problem. Now, I seem more concerned about how I can get the new heavenly world re-created than in doing something that can make people feel good. I prefer to see helpers coming in. So, my mind and intellect started playing havoc and started saying that it would be better if I send all interested parties to one of the centers. I would give the reason that the centers have facilities which can keep them entertained. Thus, now, I prefer to just attract people's attention and just refer them to the Brahma Kumaris if they are interested. We all have problems but we are working on it. So it would not be nice to question as to why the behaviour of BKs are not accurate. I would prefer the motto, "Let us just look at our own problem and try to be victorius". But you know, there have been many a times when I have heard people praise the behaviour of BKs as being very sweet and virtuos. You know, one bad apple does not make the whole bunch bad.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

A few years ago, I had a past life regression session. In a previous incarnation, I was a medical officer in the British Army. I was white and from an aristocratic family. There was much I learnt about myself in my current incarnation which was influenced by my past incarnation. I'm currently playing my role in a black body. I was also one of the first black BKs visiting Madhuban. Some of us were talented musicians and others talented intellectuals and academicians.

The discrimination mentioned was experienced. However, there were always yuktis for navigating around land mines set by those who try to be God. There was also sexual discrimination. Some sisters thought that God and the seniors would love them more if they hated men and bashed all males.

I did my first degree and DVM studies at Tuskegee University or The Tuskegee University and post-graduate studies at Tulane University, the University of Illinois and the Royal Veterinary College, London. The discrimination in BKSO should not be allowed. However, BKSO has as a mission, directed change, the transformation of the world into a peaceable kingdom. Kingdom is called Ramraj.

From the perspective of applied anthropology, there are key individuals who can play key roles in the transformation process of directed change. These are the member of the society with economic, religious or political power, the dessident or radical and the unique individual. The logic of whites at the front has as a base, the principle of applied anthropology. However, whites as the sole agents of directed change is a grand error. I have been at the receiving end of the error in applied anthropology. I have been comforted by two factors.

Baba has always said in murlis that being on the stage in no indication of the stage of a soul. Yog and dharn are the equalizers. Yes, it is fine to do great service, meet VIPs and IPs, but at the end of the day, the foundation of dharn and yog must be there. The other comfort for me has been I know and understand myself. If I'm given the cold shoulders, that's cool with me. The pie is not limited. In Baba's service, there are many niches. I DO NOT NEED TO BE BK POPULARITY TO PREPARE MY KINGDOM FOR THE NEXT KALPA.

I am not crying sour grapes. I have all love and respect for Jews. Some of my best friends and teachers of greatest influence have been Jewish. I myself I am sure had many past incarnations as a Jew. The Jews have made stellar contributions to the development of America. However, other ethnic groups have also made stellar contributions to the making of America, including blacks and the red skin people a.ka Native Americans. Ask all GIs who undergo parachute training in jump school. What do they shout as they leap from the belly of a plane? Gernonimo! He was not only a great warrior, he was also a great shaman. In New York City for example, many of the current building sites were used by the nations of red skin people before the Dutch arrived in the North East. Wall street was used by the ancient red skin people as a site for trading.

All victimized peoples should ask themselves the following fundamental questions: What karmic account did we have to be treated the way we have been treated? How can we as individuals and as a group correct our negative past karmas? Very Happy

_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai