XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

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This submission is closely related to the question ‘Who is Shiv Baba’ but is posted separately because it develops into a different dimension: the question of the declared mission of the BK’s message and their ‘Messenger’ as evaluated by their results.
The last few entries for the post ‘Who is Shiv Baba’ raise some interesting points, the most important one being the fruit of the seed – or, to borrow Atma’s metaphor, why hasn’t the runner stumbled? As Atma observes: ‘So far, after all these years, the BKs as an organization have not really “stumbled” in any significant way.’ This may be overtly true since ‘the defamer of the Sat-Guru never reaches his destination’, a caution which may even now resonate in us. Even so, the answer to Atma’s question may simply lie in the Law of Karma: as one sows, so does one reap. They teach purity and love for God and provide the ardent seeker with a method for spiritual growth. This is very noble and commendable and generally we all agree that we have benefitted based on our experience. We must concede, though, that spiritual progress is evident in several paths. What distinguishes this one is its claim that the ‘CEO’ is God Himself. When the ‘Messenger’ claims to be the Supreme Soul and the ‘message’ is said to be the Absolute Truth then there is a departure from most other religions. Here, there is little room for argument. Here, we cannot organize religious conferences to discuss and debate the Nature of God based on scriptural accounts as was done in Christianity centuries after the advent of Christ. Here, we should face God Himself with all queries about His Nature and the conduct of His affairs. Here, we must evaluate the content of His claims in light of the results. Yet, we cannot question his identity the way Christ had His questioned because here, God is ‘incognito’ and queries of that nature are ‘filtered out’ at the centers before they reach Madhuban. We can only do so now in retrospect and from observation. In doing so we must accept – ‘according to Gyan’ – the ‘incognito nature’ of His act of establishing a New World. At the same time, we must reconcile this condition with one imposed by Him many years ago to find a ‘Mike’ that would awaken the world to His presence.
Let us consider Baba’s message for His mission of ‘World Renewal’. The principle, as with other religions, is sound: first, change yourself then the world will change. The method is unique – consider yourself a soul, a point of light and energy and establish your entire being in Me, the supreme point of light and energy. Through this we are to achieve super-human spiritual stature, transfiguring ourselves into angelic subtle forms that would ‘bestow visions to our devotees’ – whether Hindu, Christian, or otherwise. We worked ardently on this but up to this time such an epiphany is rare. I have heard exclamations of wonder by non-Bks when they encountered the radiance of Kumarka Dadi in her white saried splendour combined with her gentle speech and nature. And I did see the body of Dadi Gulzar transformed into brilliant white light while sitting on the gadi in Madhuban. But there have been no such widespread epiphanies across the world. We have had Peace Marches over the years but whatever the ‘visions’ they bestowed they did not bring the curtain down and reveal God to all humanity – or did they?
This advent of God for World Renewal was to be a synchronized effort. With the perfecting of the soul was to be the revelation of God’s descent in Abu. What we seem to critically overlook, however, is the role of the Supreme Himself in this joint effort. As mentioned before, the challenge had been thrown out to all Center administrators – especially those in charge of foreign centers – to bring to Madhuban a ‘Mike’ that would declare to the world the glorious news of God’s descent. If world leaders could recognize God then surly the world would acknowledge Him and receive its blessings numberwise! Then we could all go Home and return to enjoy a renewed Earth! We were all fired up and that is how the VIP service thrust started in the late seventies/early eighties. Numerous VIPs from India and abroad were taken to Mount Abu to meet with God. It was said that when the world realizes who is descending on Mount Abu there would be a mad rush to meet Him. In India, devotees would throw themselves off the long and winding road to Madhuban; in Biblical terms there would be ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’; finally the curtain would descend as Russia and America engaged in a nuclear war.
When the World Mike did not emerge BKs were told that they had not reached perfection and so the curtain could not fall. During the course of VIP service though, the BKs gained consultative status as a Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) in the United Nations – a status it still holds today. One would have thought that with such proximity to the core of World Power coupled with the ‘supreme source’ of the knowledge, the ‘Mike’ would have emerged to bring home the message of ‘soul-consciousness’ and ‘reunion with God’ as the solution for World Peace. In this age of Information Technology, that would have been the ideal stage for revealing the nexus between the fruit – visible to the world – and the seed or its progenitor, hidden in (earthly) Madhuban. However, it has been 20 years and this has not happened in spite of many programmes and initiatives such as ‘A Million Minutes of Peace’ and the construction of beautiful parks. What has happened is a certain improvement in the quality of being of those who have attempted the practice of soul-consciousness and associated with the centers. But beautiful parks and programmes and moral teachings are not the sole property of the Bks. It is the direct claim to God’s presence in flesh through a medium that distinguishes them. And what we expect of God is more than we expect of Man. If, as Atma says ‘the Bks as an organization keep marching on and growing’ then why isn’t their influence more tangible in alleviating the condition of the world? To allude to ‘Krishna stealing the butter’ and ‘Khumbakaran being sound asleep’ (the usual explanation for the non-responsiveness of the world) does not seem a plausible reason for the apparent insensitivity to the social service dimension so largely absent from this institution. As humans beings we will measure or comprehend the work of God through the fruits of his actions – and so yes, we expect the fruit to be super-human and exceed the stature of saints who achieved their spiritual heights through less immediate means (barring the first Christian Apostles and such). The evaluation of God’s success and Man’s cannot be the same when He makes an intervention in our affairs. Even with all the distinctions made by Paul in his response under the post ‘Who is Shiv Baba’ the measure of God falls short by the gauge of our understanding – whether ‘third eye’ or intellect – as Paul himself alludes in his response to Joy. So what, then, must we make of the role of God in His continuing ‘direct intervention’ for ‘World Renewal’? It is said that Jagdishbhai, shortly before he departed, expressed to Baba his regret that he was not able to convince the world through his intellectual service. Baba, nevertheless, commended him on his efforts. If such seniors are ‘failing’ in their dedicated (human) efforts, what then is Shiv Baba’s role as GOD in this joint effort of World Renewal? Where are the ‘angels’ to feed or satisfy the devotee’s love of God? How will the world leave this ‘stage’ with an impression of His success? Whom will they remember more as spiritual giants – the BKs or Mother Theresa or Gandhi? Surely we have missed the mark, lost the path and must find another way. Even if we consider the PBKs as an alternative, why haven’t they, too, had the kind of universal impact we expect?
All of this does not invalidate the BK’s moral teachings per se – the aspect we so love and respect for the transformation it has brought in people’s lives. What it does do, however, is severely affect our human faith in God Almighty given the declaration of his identity and the magnitude of the task set. If we doubt that spiritual identity (and therefore integrity) of the ‘Messenger’ then how are we to reconcile this with the veracity and integrity of the message? And if we doubt the veracity or integrity of the message, how are we to establish or continue a relationship of complete trust with the ‘Messenger’?

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"Those were the days my friend ...."

joy · Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Posts: 9

But we cannot blame God/ShivBaba for the falling short of the message - after all it was via a messenger as you mention. Man shall always have this dilemna - god's messages will always be coloured by the inidividual delivering it and then interpreted by the disseminating group. The thing is however that the meditation method works. So how to work around that? Got to go, someone's reading over my shoulder! Rolling Eyes

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don't get grumpy - get grateful!

uddhava · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham

uddhava · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham

I should add that I'm not making any point about Arjuna's views here - in fact he says that this murli quote only applies to the date for destruction...

http://www.xbkchat.com/xbkforum/viewtopic.php?p=3304&highlight=happy#3304

although it seems to me to apply much more widely than this...

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Uddhava: thanks for reviving this post after such a long period of dormancy! Your last comment is thought provoking - that notwithstanding Arjuna's explanation of the context of the comment (bless his soul) you think it might just as well be applicable otherwise.

You know, the problem with this is that that is exactly how many people get duped in following cults blindly. Many times when questions arose there was one young brother (very happy) who used to advise us "Blank it out." I did that for many years (even before he advised it) because, as I said in the post "Who is Shiv Baba", certain questions did not matter since we had what we felt was this absolute and unshakeable faith that it was God Himself speaking. The kind of happiness you're referring to depends upon that quality of blind faith. It can lead to a childlike innocent happiness then possibly suicide - something like Heaven's gate, or to some extent the Jim Jones murders.

It is a real dilemma in following a spiritual path. Time and again we are required to have implicit faith in a "guru" and time and again we are disappointed. Try subscribing to ReFocus (see Carol Giambalvo's post in the Visitor's Forum) and you will receive over a dozen articles daily on news about various cults. You will find many of the the testimonies familiar because they adhere to an established pattern of indoctrination. There's usually a turning point in that "blind faith happiness."

So where does that leave us? That is one of the things this site can possibily facilitate - a way forward. And for me that way lies within the heart. There is a resource (you might say God given) that lies within us: some call it the Master Within; Gibran referred to it as our "god self"; the Apostle Paul, in one of his letters, referred to it as the Law written into the heart of Man by God; others just say it is plain Conscience or that 'little voice within.' However we understand it, we all experience it and, to a greater or lesser extent, we heed its advice. It is that voice that leads us through the existential void we experience on 'leaving gyan.' That voice, when awakened, reveals our inner character and it is that which some of us try to share in these fora: talking from the heart. So for me I have learnt: be happy, but be wise.

About the origin of the Mike idea I'm not sure but it was very much "headlines" when I joined in the mid-seventies. Thanks for the anecdote about Brahma Baba's letter to King George. I don't recall hearing that. I guess that was his level of effort in world service - after all, he too had to make efforts to earn a Kingdom Smile

On the difference between how the intellects of the Indians and Westerners work, I think Atma did a post on that some time ago ... can't recall it now but if you browse you might find it in this forum. It is interesting that the queries of many Indians have led them to a similar organization - the PBKs - whereas many westeners (in the context of this site) are in an existential nexus.

Warm regards,
Gy.
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"Those were the days my friend ...."