XBK Chat Forum Index XBK Chat (unofficial archive)
A former meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   You have no new messagesYou have no new messages   Log out  Log out  

Who is Shiv-Baba?
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
        XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
celticgyan



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 43
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Who is Shiv-Baba?

celticgyan made this post in the "Any and Everything" forum. That forum is for topics other than BK / XBK matters. We therefore transferred this post to this the main forum.

Admin


===================================================================


My Sister is an ex-BK like myself but she is interested in all sorts of side - issues and channeling etc - the sorts of things we were told to steer well clear of. She has this person in London she goes to who channels a so-called Master of some sort. Apperently he is from a long time ago and very wise. Anyway, my sister asked this Master if he thought the BK philosophy was good and where it came from. She also asked about the cycle. The answer was taped but unfortunately I don't have it. It went something like...

'Yes it is a good path to follow. There was no cycle however - it is more of a spiral.Things jump a level every so often. The knowledge comes from a place in the spiral arm of a nearby Galaxy'. Now that's interesting!

I never was convinced I was listening to God the supreme Soul but I was always convinced that the knowledge was benevolent and could be very useful in our daily lives - provided you could separate fantasy from reality so to speak.So SB to me is Godlike at the very least and very wise.

There siiswas electric - it was so peaceful and the buzz lasted for several hours after I left. I wondered later if people on drugs had similar experiences - that we were just triggering receptors in our brains - the feel good factor?

Om Shanti
zhukov



Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:37 am    Post subject:

^^^ Humans have the capacity to produce endogenous chemicals indistinguishable from 'drugs'. Endorphin is stronger than heroin, and we also produce a natural DMT (dimethyltryptamine) in our brains, a powerful hallucinogen. So everyone alive is theoretically breaking the law anyway lol
wahl



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:04 am    Post subject:

Quote:
There was no cycle however - it is more of a spiral

I have often pondered on this idea myself. I once posed the question to a senior BK........that if there is a first cycle followed by a second cycle etc., then how could they be considered to be identical? The same actions may be repeated in each cycle but they would each have a different place in 'time and space'.
So, I went on to ask, maybe this tiny difference (time and space) between one cycle and another would be just enough to create the spiral effect?
Then, perhaps that spiral could, according to the law of entropy, 'bend' back on itself to form a bigger cycle (just like the Golden to Silver to Copper to Iron age theory of one cycle).
In other words with the spiral possibility, we could have infinite cycles within cycles, all turning, repeating and connecting together eternally.............'world without end' as the Bible says. Idea Exclamation Question
Of course, I did get an answer.........."just remember Baba".
In retrospect this was a very good answer...........having ordinary thoughts would never help me to get my head around infinity, but developing a more subtle consciousness through meditation is definitely a good starting point. Think less, feel more.

with love
wahl
howiemac



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject:

Quote:
There was no cycle however - it is more of a spiral


I saw time like this until I encountered the BKs and the spiral became a circle.... and now, knowing Brahma's penchant for gross Exclamation simplification, and BabDada's willingness to pull wool over our eyes, the spiral is returning...

Quote:

perhaps that spiral could, according to the law of entropy, 'bend' back on itself to form a bigger cycle


this is what the ancient philosophers believed - Brahmin and Buddhist - many little cycles (kalpa) spiralling around a bigger cycle (manvantara).

H.P Blavatsky goes into depth on these ancient philosophies in 'Isis Unveiled' and 'The Secret Doctrine', both very tough reads, but very well worth it. Most of BK gyan is in there, written half a century before Lekraj became Brahma, and backed up meticulously with source references.

On the thread topic more generally ' who is Shiv Baba', Blavatsky mentions a 'watcher' soul who never incarnates but stays in the soul world watching over humanity: sounds like Shiv Baba to me....

Until the BKs reshaped my thinking, I saw God as the Brahm element, literally an ocean of light and love. But I have had encounters with Shiv Baba and I know he exists, as a soul. Whether he is the 'God' of all religions I am less sure - Godly for sure and I'll take Shiv as my guru (and my God) any day, but for very many people God is bigger and less pointy: infinate rather than infinitesimal.. and who can say they are wrong? I do think the 'personality' aspect of many people's 'God' requires a soul, so this could be Shiv Baba, under whatever name they know him..
Question
wahl



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
But I have had encounters with Shiv Baba and I know he exists, as a soul.

I would love to hear about your encounters. Have you already told us about them in other threads?

om shanti
whal
jamesy



Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
this is what the ancient philosophers believed - Brahmin and Buddhist - many little cycles (kalpa) spiralling around a bigger cycle (manvantara).


Itís reassuring to have the ancient philosophers backing, as itís the position I more or less inevitably arrive at whenever I muse on the cycle, but on another thread (When does the first vice occur?), you address Bansyís frustration with predestination with a fair degree of nonchalance. But itís really a very different proposition isnít it?

The B.K. cycle is closed and for most, they are eternally bound by it to a ĎMatrixí like near hell of an existence. Whereas the spiral belief does not presuppose the future is already waiting for us, or does it?
wahl



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:28 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Whereas the spiral belief does not presuppose the future is already waiting for us, or does it?


Why not?
A cause will always have an effect. Spiral or cycle, karma still rules.

om shanti
wahl
celticgyan



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 43
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject:

That's assuming there is such a thing as Karma in the first place. I have my doubts.
wahl



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:48 am    Post subject:

Why do you doubt this celicgyan?
What is your understanding of karma?

om shanti
wahl
satish



Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:04 am    Post subject:

Quote:
A cause will always have an effect. Spiral or cycle, karma still rules


In my opinion, if it is spiral, then action of soul cannot be foreseen. God is known for knowing the future of all souls in world. If the cycle is not something repeating then I guess God only can estimate or hope that soul will do some or other thing. That is why in Murali God always says that everything going as it has to.
However Karma always rules.
thanks
satish
celticgyan



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 43
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:19 pm    Post subject:

Why do I doubt Karma? Easy to answer. I believe this is a physical world and there is no such spiritual law. I know what Karma is - action. Every action has a reaction. Until I see evidence I cannot accept this any more than I can a cycle or Baba. That's the way I am, I have to have hard evidence, I don't go on faith. Although the BK philosophy is given as 'knowledge', it is in fact a faith. There was a time when I was brainwashed into believing some of it at a superficial level.
We can look at the suffering around us and say it's all down to Karma but we can equally see that this is just chance - your genes.Some are born with birth defects and man's inhumanity to man. Of course Karma does work at some levels - if you are good to others around you then there is a good chance they will not trouble you! Ditto for countries but this does not make it a 'law'.
wahl



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Essex, England

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:35 am    Post subject:

Quote:
That's the way I am, I have to have hard evidence


Me too.
When I stumbled across the BKs I had no inclination whatsoever to find God and I was so incredibly disappointed when the Supreme Soul lesson came up! Crying or Very sad I asked myself, not for the first time, what is the evidence?
However, I did know, and always have known, that I was a spiritual being, very much separate from the body that I was inhabiting and this aspect struck a chord with me. As did the lesson on karma.
I never believed in any religion, because the idea of God, a superior being that dished out punishment, for me was a ridiculous idea. How did 'He' (if 'He' existed) acquire that right? So, when I cam across the BKs stance on this, it made complete sense.
One thing is certain for me,..........every action, subtle or gross, spiritual or physical, has a cause. No 'thing' can come into being in total isolation. That would be like believing in magic. Hey presto, something exists, out of thin air. If anyone can show me an action, event, circumstance, feeling, emotion, in fact, anything 'under the sun' that exists without a cause, then I will begin to share your doubts in the law of karma. Question

om shanti
wahl
jamesy



Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject:

Quote:
,..........every action, subtle or gross, spiritual or physical, has a cause. No 'thing' can come into being in total isolation. That would be like believing in magic. Hey presto, something exists, out of thin air.


This is fair comment, I too am seduced by the concept of karma as not only does it seem feasible but it also offers moral reassurance. However it still seems to me that if we exist in an identically repeating cycle, then for everything we do from birth to death, from major life decisions to scratching an itch, the only cause is that we are bound to do it by the system.
We may be able to readily construct a feasible argument for karmaÖ recent living a bit fast and loose so thatís why Iíve got an itch sort of thing. But the reality in a closed loop existence is that karma is not a law but a moral convenience. Just as if it is true, that somehow we are to see this earth transformed into a pristine paradise in time for the 2036 coronation, then karmaís physical equivalent, Newtonís third law of motion, and one of the bedrocks around which much of our technology is constructed, is likewise no more than a very handy practical convenience.
John



Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 157
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject:

Quote:
That would be like believing in magic. Hey presto, something exists, out of thin air.


Has any one read any of the SaiBaba books?
I've read some and it claims that he could magic things out of thin air.
There were many witnesses and among them non believers.
celticgyan



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 43
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject:

I read that SaiBaba was a fake at the magic thing and heard a lot worse about him. I think Karma is putting a spin on something that need not exist at all. The creationalists look around them and believe that there must be a God - not so. Natural selection is all you need. Likewise we were highjacked into believeing in Karma. There is not need for it. We exist and we do, there does not have to be a reaction though there often is because that is how people react - it's not a law as such.It's more Psychology that a law.To have Karma you have to have re-births of the Soul otherwise some Souls 'would get away with it'! Then we have to have a Soul in the first place. There is no proof of the Soul let alone Karma. If there is a Soul then there may well be Karma so I will reserve judgement.
From a BK point of view it makes sense but looking at the cold hard Science. non of it makkes sense at all.How would Karma work in animals or bewteen animals and humans? How many cows have you eaten in your life (before you became vegetarian). How could the soul of the cow return that bad Karma? How could the Soul of a Lion pay his Karma back to an antelope - it doesn't make sense. The return of Karma must come form Soul to Soul via a 'tangled web' - it cannot come 'from the Universe' as this is not in BK philosophy.
Display posts from previous:   
        XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group