XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A former meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   Who is Shiv Baba? A question of Faith. Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:41 pm    Post subject: Sweetest Gyaniwasi, I have given an answer to your question in the BK section of this Forum as “Answer to Gyaniwasi / Closeness of the divine Family”. I have done this because the Administrator might not like this main Forum to get filled with gyan. Read that if you are interested. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:10 pm    Post subject: Thanks bkry, I'll check it as soon as I get some time to reply. Meanwhile, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to a small but important amendment to a detail in the original post of this thread: the name of the movie mentioned should be Signs and Wonders starring James Earl Jones. I'll share with you one viewer's comments to give an idea of issues raised there. This was a telefilm produced by both the US and the UK and shown on PBS's Masterpiece Theatre. It's really like watching several seemingly different stories unfold, and the satisfaction of seeing them all tie into one another. It's a patient story, so I don't want to say it's "slow" or "boring" but I advise people to really let the film set its own pace, reveal its complex characters and the bigger story of what faith means to a person. It's not a religious story, but it shows multiple views of personal faith: the conflict between a logic-minded son and his father who is a church leader; the effect on Christianity and strict parenting which alienates a daughter and allows her to be vulnerable to a mysterious cult. It also touches on the secular blind faith behind historical institutions -- how our own histories are like Biblical passages, unwilling to be rewritten or reconsidered. I was really impressed by this story. It left more questions than answers, and that's what made it so compelling and unforgettable. The story picks up the pace when James Earl Jones' character, a de-programmer, is hired by the mother of the family who lost their daughter to the strange doomsday cult. In order to get her back, they essentially have to kidnap her and brainwash her again to get her back to normal, a process that is intentionally uneasy, meant to make you think cult de-programming is no different than cult re-programming. But don't get me wrong -- this in no way sanctifies cults in any way. To loosely quote a character from the movie: there are signs and wonders everywhere -- it simply depends on what you want see. Sorry if you were misled by the title I gave you. Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." administrator Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48 Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:41 am    Post subject: gyaniwasi, Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We have edited your original post and will also edit the "classic post" page, to reflect the correct name of the movie. Admin the prisoner Joined: 18 Aug 2004 Posts: 23 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:56 pm    Post subject: Quote: Years ago, I read a small treatiste entitled "The Function of Reason" by the British philosopher A.N.Whitehead. In discussing what makes a theory or body of knowledge valid he noted one of the most essential charicteristics: it must display both internal and external logical consistency. I subscribe to this view, and in the context of our discussion on gyan we seem to be so enchanted by its internal logical consistency that we prefer to ignore or invalidate its external inconsistencies. Hence we glibly dismiss the contradictions and adopt much of the official school of thought in gyan. But this is understandable. We are dealing with this very delicate issue of our 'ontological security' This question of external inconsistencies bothered me from day one. As a newly graduated geologist, what was I to make of a 5000 year cycle? So can Shiva Baba be the Universal God and yet have no explanations to offer for the contradictions between His knowledge and thousands of years of scientific, archaeological,cultural and historical evidence? Curiously, the Rig-Vedas refer to this very problem : Then was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? And what gave shelter? Was water there, of unfathomed depth? Death was not then, nor was there immortality: no sign was there, the divider of day and night. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever. Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness, this All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and formless: by the great power of Warmth was born that Singularity. Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages, who searched with their hearts, discovered the existent’s kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder. Who verily knows and who can declare it, when was it born and whence comes this creation? The gods are later than this world’s production. Who knows then when it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows it not. So how would Shiva Baba be able to answer our scientific and historical questions? I guess his knowledge of the cycle would come from looking into the experience of each soul. How else would he know about heaven if he doesn't go there? Only by seeing the part of the souls who were there themselves. And how could he know or want to know the answers to the questions provoked by our intellectual and cultural milieu? I guess that the "external inconsistencies" may never be resolved, but that the desire to resolve these is merely a product of the Enlightenment which aimed (justifiably) to replace blind faith with logic and reason, for reasons which were substantially political _________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:55 pm    Post subject: Welcome O Prisoner! You said: Quote: I guess that the "external inconsistencies" may never be resolved, but that the desire to resolve these is merely a product of the Enlightenment which aimed (justifiably) to replace blind faith with logic and reason, for reasons which were substantially political It is Baba himself who invites us to "churn the Knowledge" and thus starts the intellectual process of inquiry in Gyan. It is the inquisitive nature of the human intellect that has given rise to the level of technological progress we witness today. It is by transcending accepted boundaries of thought that this has been achieved. How then are we to accept less from a God who from the inception declared himself "Trilokinauth Shiva". Consider the magnitude of this statement in light of the expanding knowledge of the universe brought to us by the Hubble telescope and the official acknowledgement of the existence of UFOs by an authority such as the BBC. Is it not reasonable to consider that there is more to Knowledge than the A,B and C of Gyan? And if there is, and we are introduced to a Father who has come to change the relationship between us and Himself from devotee/God to children/Father-Mother then is it not reasonable to expect some meaningful dialogue between God and Man in this Age of Supreme Enlightenment on the Cycle? How then are we to be content with accepting a notion that the Self Declared Ocean of Knowledge is Himself limited and not Omniscient after all? I am a bit intrigued by the combination of your chosen pen name and the nature of your first post. Again, welcome to the "open prison". Perhaps one day we will leave the Cave of Shadows and emerge into Light. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." the prisoner Joined: 18 Aug 2004 Posts: 23 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Quote: It is Baba himself who invites us to "churn the Knowledge" and thus starts the intellectual process of inquiry in Gyan But "churning the knowledge" is always described in terms which limit the exercise to internal consistencies, and deliberately exclude external inconsistencies. Quote: It is by transcending accepted boundaries of thought that this has been achieved Well, the requirement for external consistency is "an accepted boundary of thought". This requirement was specified by philosophers such as Hume and Locke, partly through conviction, and partly as part of a movement to limit the power of the Church. Are you obliquely suggesting we might wish to transcend this limitation? What, indeed, if the Truth can never be supported by reason? This is possible, although it would be disappointing. Quote: How then are we to accept less from a God who from the inception declared himself "Trilokinauth Shiva". The knowledge as presented via the murlis definitely "transcends accepted boundaries of thought" so I guess that condition is fulfilled. Quote: ....the official acknowledgement of the existence of UFOs by an authority such as the BBC A joke, I presume. Quote: Is it not reasonable to consider that there is more to Knowledge than the A,B and C of Gyan? Yes, and this deserves a topic on its own. Quote: we are introduced to a Father who has come to change the relationship between us and Himself from devotee/God to children/Father-Mother For those of us from a Christian background, the Father concept is hardly unfamiliar. Quote: How then are we to be content with accepting a notion that the Self Declared Ocean of Knowledge is Himself limited and not Omniscient after all? What indeed is an Ocean of Knowledge? Is it salty, or cold, or stormy, or even limited, as the ocean is limited by the earth? I guess we mean none of these things, because this is a metaphor rather than a reality. What may be meant by this is the question of scale - we seem small standing before an ocean, and our understanding probably feels small compared to Shiva Baba's. What often happens with Brahmins when discussing gyan is what Wittgenstein describes as the "parasitism of language" where we forget we are talking metaphorically and believe we are dealing with realities. And where does this leave Shiva Baba and His Godly Knowledge? Clearly, he is not presenting Himself as the thundering God of the Old Testament - more of a sort of minimalist God, who prefers to stay in the background. Why should He be acquainted with human ideas of science, technology, history - all of which are provisional? He doesn't need to know these things to do His job, after all. _________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain the prisoner Joined: 18 Aug 2004 Posts: 23 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Quote: I am a bit intrigued by the combination of your chosen pen name and the nature of your first post. What? "the prisoner"? Are we not all trapped in the jail of Ravan, or have some of us already escaped? The inspiration for this pen name is a cult (that word again!) TV series from the 1960's. The prisoner was a secret agent (read "incognito BK") who wanted to resign (read "become an ex-BK") but wasn't allowed to. He then became "the prisoner". One thing in his captivity which constantly irked him was that he was always referred to by a number - number 6. A bit like the irritation of being constantly reminded that one is "numberwise". _________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain Guest Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:14 pm    Post subject: Quote: What, indeed, if the Truth can never be supported by reason? This is possible, although it would be disappointing. that thought crossed my mind too what you are saying is that even though this is godly knowledge, YET again, we are asked just to have faith: just as we've been having everytime we did bahkti I can't help but think that there is something wrong with the view that god wouldn't know more -- why then would he say so many times that if the oceans were ink and if we would make pens out of all the trees, then there wouldn't be enough to tell everything. So I don't support your idea on that. Guest Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:16 pm    Post subject: btw, welcome on the forum mr. prisoner another colour in the painting here, and an interesting one if I may say so gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: Prisoner Thanks for the enlightenment on your nom de plume. I find your position very interesting and hope that in the light of exchanges among us on this site we can each find our key to greater freedom. About a few responses you made: Quote: Quote: It is Baba himself who invites us to "churn the Knowledge" and thus starts the intellectual process of inquiry in Gyan But "churning the knowledge" is always described in terms which limit the exercise to internal consistencies, and deliberately exclude external inconsistencies. Your response is true but my point is that there is a part of the intellect that escapes being totally eclipsed by the knowledge - maybe the same part that led you "astray" to this website. It is the nature of true inquiry; it is the quality of inquiry that has brought us through the ages to this point. Quote: Quote: It is by transcending accepted boundaries of thought that this has been achieved Well, the requirement for external consistency is "an accepted boundary of thought". I can't quite see how one can equate a 'requirement for external consistency' with 'an accepted boundary of thought'. The term 'external consistency' is not defined by boundaries; rather it seems to me that what it means is, as the limits of our knowledge and experience as humans expand then we are challenged to re-evaluate or revise our accepted paradigms of understanding the whole so that the new can be accommodated. A lot of that is taking place on this site in different fora and while there may be "boundaries" apparent in the revisions of the PBKs and the "revisionist BKs", the "boundaries" of the xbks and common liberal thinkers are open to ever expanding and changing paradigms of thought. It is the old difference between 'closed' and 'open' systems of thought, between, on one hand, dogmatic approaches to inquiry where everything is rationalised within a specified framework of thinking and, on the other hand, dialectical and eclectic approaches to inquiry which are open to change, revision and evolution of thought. Quote: What, indeed, if the Truth can never be supported by reason? This is possible, although it would be disappointing. It seems to me that the level at which we reason as humans is a function of our level of consciousness. I think great teachers like Christ who used parables understood this. The spiritual truths we could not understand had to be presented to us at a level we could, so I do not share the fear or belief in a possibility that 'Truth can never be supported by reason." Rather, I pray that my soul may develop to comprehend greater truth. That, for me is the greater significance of meditation, prayer or 'entering the Silence.' When Buddha emerged from his meditation under the Bo Tree he delivered his Four Noble Truths on Suffering - a classic example of "Truth" being supported by "reason." We have to remember that we are essentially limited by the "vehicle" of the human body in which we find ourselves.... but more of this train of thought in another discussion. Quote: Quote: How then are we to accept less from a God who from the inception declared himself "Trilokinauth Shiva". The knowledge as presented via the murlis definitely "transcends accepted boundaries of thought" so I guess that condition is fulfilled. I'm not quite sure I follow your response here but (in retrospect) the boundaries transcended by the knowledge were really the introduction of paradigms of thought largely unfamiliar to the mind of the Western layman. We were not used to conceiving time as cyclic nor eternity as an endless repetition of a cycle of events. This paradigm, however, is common in India and might explain why the BKs school of thought is not so unusual there. Quote: Quote: ....the official acknowledgement of the existence of UFOs by an authority such as the BBC A joke, I presume. No. But your response is natural to some unusual ideas or new paradigms of thought. You know the song by Frank Sanatra "They all laughed at Columbus .... they all laughed at Eddison .... etc." And yes,towards the end of 1996 or 1997 the BBC did take an official position of acknowledging the authenticity of existence of UFO. Like all else, time will tell. But do you really think we are alone in the Universe? Why so? We used to think we were the centre of the universe until Copernicus, Galileo Galilei and Kepler thought otherwise and in our age we are able to advance into space, see the earth in relation to the sun and take fantastic images of outer space ... or is all this imagination? Well now, there you have me Quote: Quote: we are introduced to a Father who has come to change the relationship between us and Himself from devotee/God to children/Father-Mother For those of us from a Christian background, the Father concept is hardly unfamiliar. I don't know when you met the BKs or how long you've been associated with them but if you have been very close to them you would realise that there is a distinction between the 'bhakti' experience of "Father" and the 'gyani' experience it. Somewhere along the line in Gyan there is a subtle change in our emotional response to Shiv Baba and Brahma Baba so that when we say the word "Baba" we begin to experience a very personal and close relationship. Further, if you've ever had the experience of a personal one-on-one meeting with "Bapdada" in Madhuban in those "good ol' days" then you would understand that difference perfectly. It was the creation of that emotional link that was to serve as a bonding or fellowship within the "Divine Family" which in turn was to signal how we would 'mesh' or fit into the GA. Those were "inner secrets" of the "inheritance from Father to Children". I tried to explain this to BK Pari in another forum under her topic "The Gathering of Shankars." So the point is, the closer you get (whether on the physical or subtle plane) the more intimate "the secrets of knowledge" revealed to you. But then, you are an "incognito prisoner" so this should be very familiar to you after all ... Quote: What indeed is an Ocean of Knowledge?.... this is a metaphor rather than a reality. What may be meant by this is the question of scale - we seem small standing before an ocean, and our understanding probably feels small compared to Shiva Baba's. A good point here, this question of scale. The general question for many BKs is why isn't knowledge expanding to meet the expanding intellect. The PBKs have provided us with a "neat" answer:BKs are in Junior High; they need to graduate to Senior High. Or if the BKs say they are in University then the PBKs offer "post grad" studies... you see what I mean? What was the Ocean in one system becomes a lake in another. If the lake were sufficient there would be no quest for an ocean. Quote: And where does this leave Shiva Baba and His Godly Knowledge? Clearly, he is not presenting Himself as the thundering God of the Old Testament - more of a sort of minimalist God, who prefers to stay in the background. Why should He be acquainted with human ideas of science, technology, history - all of which are provisional? He doesn't need to know these things to do His job, after all. This is a peculiar conception of "God" to say the least. His murlis indicate an intimate knowledge of Hindu scriptures. That is how we get a 'metacognitive reading' of them at least. Doesn't he make fun of "Vyas Bhagwan" anymore? Tell me more about how he does his "job" these days. Take care Prisoner. Those "shadows on the wall" can remain with us even as we emerge ... Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Guest Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:37 am    Post subject: a human being growing up would suffice hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:56 am    Post subject: Who is Shiv Baba Chellat, I would support Kevin's description. The titles of BK, PBK or XBK are quite superficial. Of importance is the qualities of the soul and the growth the soul experiences. Life can be sweet, exciting and challenging outside the walls of a BK center. A soul can grow and become wiser without attending classes at the centers 7/365. You no longer smoke nor drink. You are a vegetarian. Those are all positives for you plus the gains from meditation. God is not judgemental. Those who claim to be representatives of God are judgemental. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Good observation Kevin; sound advice hanuman! Chellath, just keep one eye (the third one) open and try not to fall asleep like so many of us did Gy. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:21 am    Post subject: Shiv Baba Gyaniwasi, Bkry, Casa and Ifigenia, It is a nice conversation on some basic aspects of gyan. Now and before, I have always questioned the BK claim of monopoly on Heaven and those who are qualified for Heaven. I have, for example, encountered many souls who do not fit the BK mold of a super soul. However, these spiritual giants do not study murlis; do not attend centers have no contact with BKSU, and are able to serve humanity in ways BKs can only dream of doing. There are many such individuals in the New Age or Alternative Health communities. By the BK BOOK these individuals should be very unhappy and knocking on the door of Raj Yoga for help. The BK response to my concern will be a statement contending that such spiritual giants are new souls who are experiencing their limited golden age. I do not fully support that contention. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:07 pm    Post subject: Good point Errol! I'll get back to you on that and other matters. Kinda busy. Can't help wondering what your yog with SB is like amidst all these critical observations. Is your SB the same as the one who descends into Dadi Gulzar to commune with the BKs? It's a serious question; just wondering .... _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next Page 3 of 4   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group