XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

ex-london · Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131

Raja Yoga, " Knowing God " and long term effects of hypnagogic states.

I would like to raise questions in folk's minds about the long term effects of hypnagogic, mesmeric or soporific states.

I am not trying to be eletist here, I am trying to use very specific words for which I give definitions to as reference and for the sake of non-native speakers.

I do not have answers for the questions I am asking and I am asking others whether there has been any research published on the subject. In asking that, I am also aware that in the practises of the Brahma Kumaris, there is something more than *just* hypnosis or mesmerism but that appears to be little checking of any relationship between what else is going on and what soporific state practitioners might be experiencing.

What is known and witnessed to widely, say, on one hand are the powers of mesmeric suggestion and auto-suggestion; and on the other hand, the very real physiological dangers of depression and too much sleep [ narcolepsy ].

[ As an aside, I'd even be tempted to question in terms of the rates of obesity and muscular atrophy within the Brahma Kumaris the effects of so much sitting and not doing nevermind the social effects of so much sitting, supporting sitting and no doing. I remember a few more the odd huge bottom made out of fit young yogi after a few years of holy communions. Bloating, I experienced it myself, seemed to be quite a useful way of reducing sexual opportunities if not sublimating other desires. You don't get that big without massive inputting. Holy overeating seemed to one of the few sensual releases the Brahma Kumaris sanction; whilst pure, unrelated exercise of any sort is severely looked down upon and something even lower than alternative religious worship, or Bhakti - even though holy eating is traditional within at least Vaishnavite Hinduism ].

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Good posting ex-l, though I've had time just to read them quickly and you've chosen a somewhat rambling style. This one reminds me of Paul's "bottom line" post under the xbk-only forum. He should be quite interested in your views.

From time to time over the years I've mused on the possibility of some 'elevated soul' expressing itself through Dada Lekraj but could never quite understand the repeated assertion of being "The Supreme Soul" ... just didn't seem to fit with the generally benevolent thrust of the teaching coupled with the anomalies.

I think what is happening also is the continuing consolidation of an egregore or meme that contributes and supports much psychic energy to the group. Innocent practitioners contribute to this because they experience benefits from that energy without realising the "soporification" of their true or potential personalities. That true personality is subsumed, or voluntarily sacrificed as an act of surrender, then "blessed" as a noble and elevated act by the superiors. As we have observed, however, the big question is: does the 'means' justify the declared 'ends' of moral upliftment and spiritual "purification"? Are we really transformed or are we merely in a soporific state sleepwalking in 'service'? The latter is quite a valid possibility - to put it mildly - but the other question is: what percentage of BKs are in that 'automatic drive' and how many are truly "awake spiritually"? Would be interesting to see what other bona fide xbks think ...
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"Those were the days my friend ...."

ex-london · Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131

assandhari · Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk

Great research Ex-London and,
'May the Force be with you'.
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the universe... a hall of mirrors....reflecting, inner beauty..

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

ex-london wrote:

ex-london · Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Hey ex-l, my intention wasn't to suggest that the BKs have alien connections! I hope you didn't think so. I was merely making an allusion to a similar idea. Just for the records though, I do believe there's extra-terrestrial life out there. What they're up to I'm not sure.

And yes, I too am also interested in what others have to say.

Gy
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"Those were the days my friend ...."

assandhari · Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk

ex-london wrote:

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie
I bought one of these but unfortunately, I didn't read the washing instruction carefully enough. Embarassed

with love
wahl

Tete · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169

Dear Ex-London,

I find the questions you raised to be relevant and do bring one to have cause for re-evaluation. I remember taking abnormal psychology and exploring these very subjects. I also studied hypnosis in the eighties, but I never had full exposure to the hypnotic BK trances until very recently and not in their full spectrum. I think the ones I attended were for PR value and not the full effect.

You raise some interesting topics, ones that most folks would fail to address for fear of ridicule or worse. The power of hypnosis is great and the effects on ones mind are some times positive and some times not.

I once put myself in trance to avoid pain, rapidly and for a great purpose. I was to have a C-section, for a premature delivery, when it became apparent that that my baby was in distress I had to make a choice. The medication had not taken affect and my baby’s heart rate was dropping. I called my doctor closer to me and asked that he proceed. He was reluctant and I assured him I would be fine. As he cut I was aware of it, could sense the pulling, but not the pain. At one point he stopped as he had reservation (I imagine my brother video taping the event didn't help) and I asked that he continue. I was calm, aware of my breathing and at peace. I simply told myself there was no severe pain or small pain. Pain was just pain, thereby mentally disconnecting the pain threshold.

So, I do appreciate your in depth look into things that the average person would fail to dare look at. Are these things possible? How? Why?

I was never aware and certainly there are no books available to explain to folks what belief system exist within the BK world. I learn a little at a time by reading all the wonderful posting of all of the members and I am honored that you speak honestly and without reservations. You speak from the heart, your soul and expose things that you have questioned in your mind. That is truly a gift.

I found your posting refreshing and honest. You posed many good questions and gave good insight. I did have to read it twice to full grasp some of the points more clearly, but I am all the better for it.

Regards,

Tete

zhukov · Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86

I must admit, when during the 7-week Intro course, the moment the "channelling/posession" part of the Baba-life-story came up, I thought "Uh-oh, what's going on here??" Confused

To my wry chagrin now, I allowed myself to be influenced by the significant (as I felt) BK peer-pressure to just try at all costs to accept 'Baba' and not to worry further about questions. All would come if only I would believe!

Something I could not do with any type of clear conscience Rolling Eyes

You are making a lot of excellent points which concerned me also for a long time, ex-london. I just wish I could do real justice to them in reply Wink

daviniamaher1 · Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10

[quote]Which is where I, personally ask, " Well, what is going on here then? I demand better of my Supreme Soul! This is one of the best bit that anyone can write
it is not long yet it says it all
whenever questions are asked they should be answered honestly
I always found it odd that senior sisters came up with some really odd answers which only confuse rather than just saying that they did not know
We truly can only demand all answers from the Supreme Soul

ex-london · Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131

daviniamaher1 · Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 10

Dadi Gulzar's trance messages have a ring of truth about them
the others ,I found ,I had to pinch myself as some actually seem as they had been orchestrated for instance if some one had passed away especially if they are well off. I could be wrong.Please do put me right if I am wrong but that is the impression I was left with sometimes.
There are many things that we don't understand but some things just do leave such an impression that cannot be dismissed

jamesy · Joined: 09 Oct 2005 Posts: 19

Hi all

Thanks for the 'egregore' concept, interesting and a helpful explanation for the frustration folk often encounter usually when they sense it's all starting to just slip away.

I remember a most surreal 15 minutes of Madhuban with Little Mohini in trance and morphing into a dancin' and a prancin' baby Krishna. Looking around me I could see that Krishna's coming just a tad early provoked reactions right across the emotional spectrum. Even more intriguing though was post trance analysis, everything from complete spoof, to invoking her own 'golden aged naughty child stage' to authentic possession by Krishna in waiting. It seemed freedom of opinion was just dandy, that there was little concern to provide an authentic explanation and frankly pretty much nobody (even those who seemed fair mortified by it at the time) felt a desperate urge to get to the bottom of it anyway!

I guess the BK egregore would be at it’s most potent in Madhuban. I mean looking back, even if some aspects of the philosophy were no longer adding up quite so neatly, when I actually got out there, I was curious to find myself pretty half hearted in trying to track down any sort of intellectual appeasement. – In truth once arrived, as usual all I really wanted was to experience even a little of the feelings that I had on my original visit.

Years later, Jagdish hosting a small gathering and reflecting on the time when BapDada held personal meetings. I asked him what he made of the considerable and exclusive time BD would give to visiting I.P's who had no recognition of who they were meeting, and who have not subsequently. Jagdish, rare amongst his peers always keen to tell it as it is, appeared happy to give me his opinion on the matter, and encouraged I made further attempts to pursue what I felt was an interesting line of enquiry. Clearly not that interesting though, in no time an interpreter between myself and Jaggers (not at his bidding) and a sudden enthusiasm for a whole raft of the personal dharna type stock standard questions to be considered.

It's tempting to agree with ex-L that my dogged pursuit of what for some may have seemed irrelevant provoked a quite overt group put-down. But though I certainly recognize his frustration, I really can’t say I felt/saw any obvious source of even mild contempt. Maybe it was simply that I was no longer part of the group egregore, physical proximity but psychic wise now barking up another tree altogether.

Interesting character Jagdish, very prominent in the mid-80’s, virtual one-man literature dept at the time. Seemed to have dedicated his energy to making God accessible to western science in all its guises, and apparently with full blessings of the Senior Sisters. I remember a huge volume finally being released, the answer to everything you’d ever wanted to ask the Dadi’s but knew it was a waste of time asking sort of thing. Maybe it was the sheer size of the thing as much as what was inside, but in any event it didn’t set the yagya on fire and thereafter old Jagdish, to me anyway, became a lot more peripheral. But it could also be that in his fervor to prove it all to the rational mind, he inadvertently moved well outside the natural boundaries of the BK egregore? God, I’m fair warming to this word now aren’t I?

Hmm..just paused to read that lot thro, and it may not smack you in the face, but I think what I’m trying to say is that the B.K. egregore is something that if you are at all open to it, strongly favors the experiential over the intellectual. I was certainly very open to it in the mid 80’s as it seemed were many of my contempories. Definitely completely out with the rational, but I don’t think I encountered it as hypnagogic/soporific, infact ‘super sensuous’ to use an old bk adjective fits the bill nicely, heightened awareness turning the most mundane into the extraordinary.

Sadly my ability to tune in began to decrease within months of my first visit to Madhban and as the extraordinary once again reverted to the mundane, so I too saw the novelty of 4 am gradually becoming more soporific than tapasaya.
When you’re outside the egregore as I and I assume most using this forum are now, the stuff that doesn’t tie up won’t let you rest. But for years, on occasion (you just never knew when!) I was still granted temporary egregore entry, and knew I had been, because the nagging doubts would not return until weeks after I was firmly back in the mundane.

rgds
Jamesy