XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A former meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   How I left Brahma Kumaris          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Sanvean Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 27 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: How I left Brahma Kumaris Hi! Jim Brady ask me why I left BKs. So, this my history... I had been in Brahma Kumaris for 5 years. I left 10 years ago and it was the most terrible think that happen with me. I used to be a teacher, I lived in shakti bhawan and I was really involved with family and service. I went to Madhuban twice. The last time was 1995, few months before left Brahma Kumaris. I had a great faith and I broke relashionships with my loki family, I stopped the university, I moved to other city. After 5 years with Bks, the instruments in São Paulo asked me to return to my city and take care the center there like the main teacher. I didnīt want this responsability, but I couldnīt say no. I couldnīt sleep and I lost 3 Kg in a week when they asked me to be an instrument! So, I created a snare for myself: I had an involvement with a guy in my work. I told to instruments and one month later I went to London and to India. Guilt, pain, shame. I had a strong depression and I became really sick. I couldnīt leave the bed in India. I think about to die. I had left my work and the instruments tell me that I couldnīt go to the center (of course). I was without work, house and destiny. But I loved Baba and wants to stay with brahmin family. I talked to Ken and to Sister Mohini in Madhuban. I stayed there for one month and half. They gave me respect and Sister Mohini said that Baba trusted me. She said lots of good thinks. I decided to stay with BKs (I didnīt break celibacy). After our conversation, I sit to meditate and I fly. The first time in three months. I feel like centuries of guilt were removed. Anyway, the feeling of responsability was compress me. I moved to the other city to be the instrument. There, I had problems with work, money and that guy that I loved still called me to talk. He said that loves me, wants to have a house with me, etc, etc. I was impossible for me to stay. I did a phone call to the instruments, I told them my decision and I went to my motherīs home. I left the center crying a lot. It was terrible. Later, I moved to São Paulo again and that guy broked with me . Can you imagine? I was living in São Paulo without family and friends. My friends were BKs. I began to do therapy, find new friends. I found my husband, a great soul, and I rebuid my life. I deciced to study journalism because I think that I could have a special rule in revelation of Baba. But the time past. I tried to be closed to BKs like a friend, I published a report about meditation and I made publicity for them, but I realised that it was impossible for me to continue to have a double life. The contact with Bks affected me. And in therapy I finnaly stopped to think about the destruction, the sins, the golden age. Because we need to live now, with love. I donīt know exactly what happens, but I become sad and alone. Iīm trying to live well with my family and with this strange world. But I feel that I need to find hope, faith and spirituality to believe in myself again. Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Tu historia Savean, Tu esposo sabe de la fe de los BKs? =Does your husband know of the BK believes? I do think people should begin to write down how they were able to take some positives from what they learned. Que lindo que lo esiste=how beautiful that you did this. Dime mas de este Ken?=Tell me more of this person Ken? Qiero saber mas por una rason.=I want to know for a reason. Cuando unos hermanos (no BKs...tu sabes como uno dice hermano/na...no?)visitaron donde llo estoy, era cosa comun y les gusto (hermano y hermana) eso es lo lindo de tu jente. Gracias, Tete Te acurerdas del disco Un Pais Tropical? cuando eras chico de un group de cuatro de Brazil...yo lo recuerdo pero no logro en encuentrar lo? Do you remember that song? As a child I loved that song and it brings great memories when I sing what I can remember. Una hermana recuerda tu idioma. Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Sanvean, Perdona la confusion, donde llo vivo es muy comun en parejas del mismo sexo. Hijole...por eso me confundio. SORRY! Le estaba contando a Joel que no hay muchas mujers en el Chat...que lindo que estas aqui. Uno me dice que ablo de mas! Ay Caramba. Esta luego y bien benida...hermana. Adios, tete Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: NBK.......ID Bansy, Quote: It may be difficult at first to find good things to say about something that didn't work for you, but if you keep looking back at the past with negativity, well then its your choice, as much as it was your choice to have joined the BKs in the first place. In the west, they call this "No use crying over spilt milk", even if it was a lot of milk. I would agree totally with your sentiments however; I didn't join, never got the disclosure form. I only learned most of the beliefs in 2004/05 (most while here) and I might also include my child also didn't know until 2004. So, given that fact that I have tried to make the best of it over many years, have been accepting of former Bks and even current ones (although I have my reservations) and mostly accepting of all that my husband has experienced. I would say I have been open, understanding and loving. Even when things were not very good by any measure I didn’t react with hate or rancor. I think I have chosen to see it in the larger picture of events and have tried to make lemonade when given lemons. My main concern in being here is to understand it (BK religion) as I frequently experience and have also been taught by him (unknowingly some of the things you all do...especially the yogi ones) and will ask people like Howie what this and that means and others. Once I learn what it means it gives me peace. Some things he does he hadn't done before. Keep in mind I still practice my religion as do my children. I just don't run around here preaching because I don't think it is my place to do so. I am here to learn and share. I try to live my life in the best possible way and I know if I am to stay in this marriage I need to know all I need to know. Those close to me know my issues and help me along in my journey to clarity. I truly don't know what that will be in the end but I do appreciate that they are helping me to sort things out. I view commitment in the old fashion way and that is why I don't take marriage lightly. I think I have tried to look at the positives and I also recognize the things that have brought me sadness, as well as my family. I will accept the good, but I won't put my head in the sand either. One is often not privileged to know what hardships others may have had. I choose not to over expose out of respect. Enlightenment is Freedom, Regards, Tete Sanvean Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 27 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: Tete, Minha irmã, my sister, País Tropical is a famous song of Jorge BenJor. There is an old group with four persons called MPB4, but I donīt know if they recorded this song. Anyway, try to listen the song with others singers at link [url]http://radio.terra.com.br/busca/musicas.php?musica=País%20Tropical[/url] Enjoy! My husband did the course and liked. I talk about everything with him. But today I didnīt talk very much about BKs. I told him Iīm writing here. But I donīt think a lot about the BKs beliefs. We used sometimes meditationīs CDs from BKs... Ken OīDonnel is from Australia and he begans the service in Brazil. He is writer and consultant. He works with business men, companies, etc. He takes care the service in South America (I think) and he is ok... I donīt know exactly what do you want to know... Regards Sanvean Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Gracias Sanvean, Gracias por la cancion!!! Es algo de mis memorias especiales. Cuando Chica tenia un amigo Joa qien me enseno La Samba y otras cosas. Te mando un mensaje privado por cual qiero saber de Ken. Thank you again for finding my childhood song. Regards, Tete ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Celibacy pros and cons Tete wrote: How could anyone consider them selves a slave to a child that can do things that are truly remarkable? It truly upsets me to think that "Spiritual People" would find fault with children or their existence. That they would find such little souls such a burden, depriving them of love, nurturing and support. Tete, are you really meant to be posting in the " XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY ". I understood that you were not an ex-B.K. ? Your way of thinking and experience is so far removed from what an ex-B.K. is, and in a sense is so mundane. This may sound harsh but it is the correct usuage of the word, i.e. worldly. It belongs to such an entirely different sense of values. Honestly, childbearing is hardly any more unique than taking a poop and require no more intelligence or " spirituality " and physical procreation is quite base and animalistic. The issue we have here is that those " spiritual people " you refer to may not be " spiritual " at all. You could say self-advertised or allegedly spiritual but ther eis no need to pitch a stand and devalue a word that may actually have a specific meaning. Put to right use, not having children and following celebacy DOES release huge resources within the individual that COULD be put to better use. A 21 years, 24 / 7, 250,000 Dollars investment with no guaranties that all you might get out of it is a racist, rapist, arch-capitalist, dope head anarchist drop out or whatever ... if you were a business advisor, would you advise me to invest? Nevermind the lost opportunity for individual spiritual growth. B.K.-ism essentially sits within the Boddhisatva mould of accelerated individual spiritual growth at all cost in which a child is a huge unbearable pointless cost. Unless you have been within such a path, it is really impossible for you to comment any more than could be cleaned from the pages of some women's magazine selling diaper advertising. Puppies are fun too but all they are in actuality is life long turd factories. I know too many human beings that fit into the same category and are turning this planet into a toilet. Beam me up Scotty, I am ready for another more rarified dimension please. I promise to be good and lay off the Dakinis this time. Ex-L Tete Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 169 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Celibacy pros and cons Ex-London, COMES THE DAWN After awhile you learn the subtle difference Between holding a hand and chaining a soul., And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning And company doesn't mean security, And you begin to understand that kisses aren't contracts And presents aren't promises. And you begin to accept you defeats with your Head high and your eyes open, With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child. You learn to build your roads on today Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans, And futures have a way of falling down in mid-flight. After awhile you learn that even sunshine burns If you get too much. So plant your own garden and decorate your own soul, Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers. And you learn that you really can endure, That you really are strong, And you really do have worth, And you learn and learn......and you learn With every goodbye you learn.......... Anonymous Sanvean Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 27 Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject: Well, Iīm a XBK. I think I can reply... I think that to have children is an option. I made this choice. It was a great experience for me. I donīt think that everyone has to be a father or a mother. Itīs a choice. And you can take care children with love or just feed them...I think that take care a child with love is a spiritual service. Itīs good for the soul and for the humanity too. ex London quote: Quote: Honestly, childbearing is hardly any more unique than taking a poop and require no more intelligence or " spirituality " and physical procreation is quite base and animalistic. This is true. But there is some problem with this? To feed a baby with your own milk is an animal experience . Itīs a loving animal experience!!!! ex London quote: Quote: Put to right use, not having children and following celebacy DOES release huge resources within the individual that COULD be put to better use. I agree, if you think there are better use...To have children is an option. But Tete mentioned BKs that had have a child before raja yoga. Quote: This quote by Guest helps me to understand why BKs leave their children and see nothing wrong with the practice. The "SS" will give advice on this practice which to me seemed wrong and not coming from a spiritual place of "PEACE and PURITY". There is nothing pure in leaving ones child and it is by no measure peaceful to the child left alone/abandoned. I agree with her. I didnīt knew any BK that did this (I think). But if someone had a child, it is a obligation to take care he/she. If parents abandoned child, there is nothing pure and spiritual in this behavior... Regards gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Sanvean's experience and the ensuing discussions have opened again this controversial question of love and sexuality in relation to the BKs and other paths. I'd just like to share some thoughts on this. First, I think the hall mark of most of us who are here is that we have made a conscious decision to explore life outside of a closed path, outside of all paths that are intolerant to the normal human faculty of critical thinking - whether we are labeled xBK, nBK or cBK (critical BK - just my impromptu coinage) The one thing that we try to practice here, given our common experience of being closed-minded is a tolerance for divergent views while being critical of them. To adopt an intolerant attitude to another's point of view is, ironically, to practice the very attitude of which we became victims. One of the things I learn from participating on this site is compassion. I realized that after I began dialogue with Eugene on his ground-breaking post. It occurred to me that even the "SS" needed compassion because many of them truly believe all of the doctrines they espouse. And even for those who don't, the thought of an unknown void as an alternative is so terrible that they instinctively remain in a shell of faith, reinforcing it daily through habitual practice. It is an irony then, that we, the 'black sheep', can grow spiritually in this pasture. We should avoid burning it. Now about this thing called Love. Sometime ago - I think in the BK forum before it was closed - under a topic about Purity, there was a discussion on the possibility of pro-creation by non-physical means. During that discussion, Bkry advanced the view that it was quite possible and proceeded to describe in an almost clinical manner the normal psychological process of attraction between a man and a woman with its attendant physiological reactions in the human body. This, she said would result in procreation without physical intercourse. Not convincing - though I've read passing comments on it elsewhere outside of BK literature. It is difficult to appreciate what is essentially wrong in the sexual expression of Love. The problem seems to be that in paths like the BKs there is no distinction made between Love and Lust. All sexual arousal is considered lust. For the same reason (tunneled vision) that we cannot now appreciate the limitations of a 5000 year cycle and other aspects of BK doctrine, it is difficult to see what is wrong with human love. To describe the sexual expression of love between a man and a woman as "animalistic" is a distortion. Some spiritual paths teach this but there are others that teach just the opposite in both Eastern and Western cultures. In India, the art of sexual love is itself considered a path to transcendence. [I think Hanuman has been exploring this] In the Western tradition, the Russian mystic Ouspensky describes several categories of Man, each of whom has a more advanced and refined level of sexuality. To categorically condemn and dismiss sexual love as trash is a surprisingly narrow perspective. Those who have the experience of a tender kiss or who have made love as an expression of sincere, tender emotions would understand clearly that the "animalistic" perspective is very prejudiced. This is a very one dimensional view of the passion of love. One piece of literature that comes to mind as a example of relating the emotional and spiritual aspects of love to the physical is Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha based on the life of the Buddha (or the 'carrier soul' for the Buddha, if you wish). It is beautifully portrayed in the 1972 film starring Shashi Kapoor. [The video or DVD should be available.] The culture of India seems to understand this complexity very well. The clearest overall perspective I've read so far on this is from Andrew Harvey's The Essential Mystics sub-titled "The Soul's Journey into Truth". In a chapter on Hinduism - The Way of Presence he remarks: Quote: Hinduism acknowledges the differences in people's personalities and temperaments and takes a marvelously and ripely practical attitude to attaining union with the Atman-Brahman. Four main paths of yoga ("union with God") were gradually developed to suit different ways of imagining, approaching, and enacting the divine: jnana yoga, the path to the transcendent through knowledge; bhakti yoga, the path of devotion, usually to a "personal" god; raja yoga, the path of royal (raj) reintegration through psychophysical exercises; and karma yoga, the path of works and action dedicated selflessly to the Supreme. The essence of these things were told to us in the 7 days course but perhaps now we can appreciate them differently in a post-gyan life. The teaching of detachment from the world in the BK path is due to the doctrine of the 5000 year cycle. We were taught - and we accepted - that we are at the end of the cycle and therefore it was time to "pack up". I remember writing a letter (very lovingly too!) to my own mother a few months after coming to gyan telling her that I needed to detach from her and the family since I was preparing for another life. I was away from home (at university). When I went home on vacation (I had not yet surrendered and become a centre-niwasi) my sister asked me to desist from such writing since I was breaking my mother's heart. I began to extend the knowledge to them and they both took the 7 days course eventually. [Incidentally, the sister who gave my Mom the course also gave her own example of detachment - she had left her profession as a medical doctor and her family - husband and young children - to give her life to Baba! Today, she is still in charge of a centre.] Some of the teachings helped my mother overcome the then recent grief of losing my father through death. She was happy just to share my world but after a time she said to me "Son, I appreciate certain aspects of the teaching - like the Law of Karma - but I think I prefer my Jesus." I didn't press. Service is an art of influence, I thought, and so I'll live out the Truth then no one can deny it. She kept my letter for years and showed it to me (teasingly) after I left gyan, reminding me of the days when I'd warn them about the impending destruction of the world. I share all of this to say that when we are under a heavy influence (or have suffered tremendously from it) we can say some insensitive things like children are a humbug or an unnecessary distraction. In a tunnelled vision this would appear to be so, but we have emerged from the tunnel (even if into an apparent wilderness or another pre-gyan maze) and we are still blessed with compassion. Bansy is right about our responsibility. A child can become a jewel and our gift to humanity, or a scourge. It is we who determine this based on the contents of our hearts. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Different thread ? gyaniwasi wrote: Sanvean's experience and the ensuing discussions have opened again this controversial question of love and sexuality in relation to the BKs and other paths. I'd just like to share some thoughts on this. Do we have a different thread to discuss these matters as they seem inappropriate for one on " leaving Gyan? " [ Unless, of course, you count the moment you popped your born again cherry as the moment you properly left Gyan and baptised your new life as an ex- ]. howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: gyaniwasi wrote: It is an irony then, that we, the 'black sheep', can grow spiritually in this pasture. We should avoid burning it. Great post, gyaniwasi - yes we should have compassion for each other, and for BKs, even the SS. And maybe we should refrain from opening their gates, or putting holes in their fences? I believe many BKs would struggle badly if their support blanket was taken away from them. Maybe we should concentrate on finding our own pastures new, and on helping other refugees. Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: gyaniwasi wrote: Quote: The one thing that we try to practice here, given our common experience of being closed-minded is a tolerance for divergent views while being critical of them. To adopt an intolerant attitude to another's point of view is, ironically, to practice the very attitude of which we became victims. One of the things I learn from participating on this site is compassion. I agree 100 %. Something ago, someone (who it was I can't now remember) wrote: "To disagree without being disagreeable is the mark of a superior mind" As they say, frequently, it is not so much what you say, it is how you say it. Apart from simple considerations of etiquette, politeness and manners, there are more subtle considerations. I think we need to bear in mind that many persons who have come to this site are carrying some psychological 'baggage'. Simply to pluck up the courage to overcome their fears and inhibitions, and to actually express their feelings and views on BK related issues, has been a great hurdle that they have overcome. They should be congratulated and encouraged for that. Therefore, we should be mindful that, in our interaction with them, we are not 'talking down' or being unnecessarily abrasive or 'smart alecky'. Doing that is simply boorish, and may cause the recipient to become self conscious, feel insulted and clam up again. The site would be the loser in that. A degree of sensitivity and maturity can go a long way. Regards to all. Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK issues...for XBKs ONLY All times are GMT - 5 Hours Page 1 of 1   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group