XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

Hanuman bhai,

I appreciate your contributions. However, I must confess a little disappointment here. I - and others too I am sure - would appreciate more straight answers to the direct questions raised.

Thanks

Paul

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Paul,

I understand the importance of straight and direct answers. However, there is also the need for examples and accounts of personal experiences to illustrate the metaphysical nature of God Almighty.
God is also a spirit and we can best interact with the Suprene by being soul conscious.
The Murlis will have mistakes due to the humans who are the scribes.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

Hanuman,

Implicit in your response is the suggestion that those who ask direct questions and seek straight answers are "body conscious". That is the kind of knee jerk reaction that many associate with the cult mindset. It denotes avoidance, denial and / or dismissal.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Paul,

I must apologize for any unwanted signals sent by the responses.
Though we may disagree, Very Happy

I do not have any problems with direct questions and direct answers. For me, they are not body conscious. I appreciate direct questions and direct answers as part of the Scientific Method and scholarship in general.
I must say that I have, like many other xBKs encountered negative opposition while a BK for thinking out of the box.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

administrator · Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48

celticgyan made a post here which he should not, as he has not been invited / does not have permission to post in this exclusive forum. I have therefore transferred his post to the main forum. See the "Response to the bottom line" thread in the main forum. I believe the mistake was made innocently, as celticgyan is a new member. I have sent him a private message about this.

Admin

Guest · Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:59 pm Post subject:

Paul, you have never given your opinion yourself in this thread, or have you changed your mind in the mean time Wink

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

It is inexcusable that I started this thread way back in May and am only now giving the answers to the questions I posed. Mea culpa Sad

Anyway, Kevin thanks for the reminder.

Here are the questions (in bold text) with my answers below them:

In spite of everything - the doubts, dissatisfactions, criticisms, negative experiences - do you believe that Shiv Baba is God?

Not in the absolute sense. He may be an aspect of the divine and an elevated being, but not the all encompassing capital letter GOD.

Are you unsure, undecided, sitting on the fence?

See above.

Do you feel he could be God?

See above.

If you believe that he is not God, then what do you think he is?

See above.

Do you believe that he can be God even if the "knowledge" or some essential aspects of it, is untrue, incorrect, false?

No. I agree with gyaniwasi here. If even minor aspects of the "knowledge" are false or untrue then it negates the Godly nature of the source.

If the knowledge is false, then what would the motivation be for putting it out all these long years?

Well, we need to consider that even a disembodied being may feel the need to found a movement, have followers and effect what the being considers to be positive changes in people and the world. Now, whether those changes are really that positive - especially if the underlying teachings are defective - is open to debate.

Are we dealing with negative, deceptive, demonic powers here?

Demonic I think not. Deceptive maybe. Then again, the line between the two can sometimes be fine and subtle, is it not?

Does the entity gain by being "remembered"?

Even though I say so, this is a very good and pertinent question. It may even be the key to the answer to the next question. At the disembodied level, spirits may not need or find satisfaction in the material things of this world. However, there may be a deep seated need to be known, recognized, acknowledged and even worshipped....a psychic energetic need. At a very gross level, they say vampires need blood. We see that around the world, in shamanistic cultures, offerings of various kinds are made to spirits. For instance in Haitian voodun and in Santeria ceremonies. At higher levels, the need for something to sustain the spirit may also be there, but in a more refined way - in the form of "remembrance". Of course, BKs are told that it is they only who benefit through remembrance of SB, not SB himself. I would now take that with a spoon of salt.

What is really going on, in your opinion?

See my answer above. Of course, it does not encompass everything that is / could be "going on"... but it may be a large part of it.

Guest · Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:20 pm Post subject:

If even minor aspects of the "knowledge" are false or untrue then it negates the Godly nature of the source.

Let me just say that it is a supposition based on literally nothing to suppose that god stands for truth only. People, religions, philosphers, they all just talk about this concept 'god' and they all assume just a lot of things. Nothing is for sure in my eyes.

Joel · Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102

Hi Everyone,

There's a lot to write about; but in this post I think I will be fairly minimalist. (After writing: seems I got that wrong.)

btw, thanks for the idea, Paul, you're quite the online diplomat-facilitator. Hi Eugene! You've had quite a quest.

Q In spite of everything - the doubts, dissatisfactions, criticisms, negative experiences - do you believe that Shiv Baba is God?

God for whom? If for everyone, I think not. One thing I noticed when I was getting ready to leave was that many non-BKs had abundant personal and spiritual qualities without knowing anything about SB.

Incidentally, many of these warm, creative, fulfilled people didn't seem to exhibit any ill effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, eating foods containing meat or fish, etc. They didn't seem to be getting any karmic payback.

And on the other side, constraining my life according to the prescribed formula (as I interpreted it, of course) did not magically elevate me: after ten years or so, I still suffered from disturbing dreams, debilitating inhibitions, and other problems. Maybe I will speak about them in time.

I always felt a rapport with Sr. Jayanti, and remember asking her in a letter--I think I wrote about having sexual feelings--just when I could expect them to be burned away. She wrote me that *she* still had many issues--sansakaras--that the fire of yoga had not yet incinerated.

I found her frankness liberating. If *she* hasn't burnt them away by now, I reasoned (the penny dropping at that moment) *I* haven't much hope either.

Incidentally I thought it interesting that one of the brothers who responded to Eugene's edited report brought up the issue of intense feelings of sexual attraction, as though they were a problem to deal with, as opposed to an integral part of human experience. Or maybe a gift that comes with life. A subject that deserves attention among ex-BKs making peace with themselves.

Q Are you unsure, undecided, sitting on the fence?

So for me, no, in that I don't depend on thinking of that one thing/entity, etc. to access whatever the universe may offer me. Sometimes I can't get to it at all, but I do not blame God for this; lately do not blame myself either. I think that my genetic inheritance, upbringing and personal neurochemistry are to some extent responsible. And my life continues to improve by accepting challenges, making new distinctions, and with the support of friends who see value in me when I do not see it myself.

Q Do you feel he could be God?

I gave him--as far as I could--ten years of service in the prime of my life. Of course I received, too. But as far as deep and lasting transformation and regular experiences of divine bliss, he had his chance. I did my best, but now it's proven time for both of us to go about our separate lives.

Q If you believe that he is not God, then what do you think he is?

I can't say; and I don't think it's necessary to have an answer to have a fulfilling life. That said, I *did* investigate another entity called The Guide, who spoke through a Swiss immigrant to the US, Eva Pierrakos. I got a lot of value from the published lectures, and spent two weeks as a volunteer at the Pathwork Center in Phoenicia, NY, where I made some fascinating discoveries--stay tuned!

(btw I recommend these lectures; they offered me new ways to observe myself.)

The Guides lectures are more culture-neutral than SB/BB's but neither appear to me an exclusive path to self-realization.

I think it's fair to call them 'entities', and to understand that information gets around the universe. All parts of the universe are entangled (in the quantum mechanical sense) if they participated in a Big Bang, and so you could expect that information could pop up from various conscious vortexes in surprising ways.

I remember walking around Madhuban one night Bapdada was visiting. It was fun because all the rules were looser those nights; you could hang out with friends in the kitchen or wherever. By that time I felt much better walking around outside. In the hall itself I felt closed, stifled. I knew it was getting time to leave.

Q Do you believe that he can be God even if the "knowledge" or some essential aspects of it, is untrue, incorrect, false?

Q If the knowledge is false, then what would the motivation be for putting it out all these long years?

He could be God for those who accept him as such; probably those same people would accept his knowledge, too. You're giving yourself a hard time if you want him to be God for you while having trouble with the knowledge. Either you need to be creative, or maybe look into your history as to why you're giving yourself a hard time.

Q Are we dealing with negative, deceptive, demonic powers here?

Brahma Baba with whomever it was/is was brilliant in inspiring people to extend themselves. Any real friendship is something near-divine.
However all human organizations are subject to negative, deceptive and hurtful behaviors. Demons-crazy, as Baba himself once said.

Q Does the entity gain by being "remembered"?

Q What is really going on, in your opinion?

I can tell you, but you have to join my group first, and this requires money in front, *big* money.

Seriously, I do have a new theory of everything, at least to explain human bias toward war and unrestrainable use of fossil fuels and nuclear energy. Believing in destruction--as many religions do--provides a convenient justification for using available resources now. When we drive our car or go shopping, we think we're doing what *we* want, but at the same time, we are helping energy--which like the slaves of the lamp--are waiting patiently, passively, helpless for someone to release them. We think we're independent, but we're actually like enzymes releasing forces greater than our own puny metabolisms can deliver.

Of course that is a digression from the subject at hand, and not really necessary to clarify to live a fulfilled life.

Guest · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:25 am Post subject:

yoh Joel, some nice thoughts you're giving there
we'll need some more topics to explore them Wink

administrator · Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 48

Administrator's note: Joel made his post (above) even though he was not invited to post in this exclusive forum. However, since it is clear from his post that he is a bona fide XBK, the invitation is now extended retroactively, and so his infraction is "cured". Joel may continue to post here. Welcome.

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Hi everyone. Sorry I haven't been around lately but business has had me quite busy.

Welcome to the XBK Only forum Joel! You seem to have made quite some progress in your "exit". I'm a bit bothered by your new affiliation though ... especially since it seems to come with a high price tag - or were you being facetious! Smile

Lamka · Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Northern UK

Oh I do get tired of all the usage of He and Father.
I know Brahma Baba was a wonderful and inspiring teacher and leader, a great humanitarian, social philosopher and spiritual human being, who did much for female kind in India.
However surely God, the supreme being, is genderless? This is one of the major problems I had as a BK for 8 years, and yes I know much is said of God the father and mother, brother, sister and child, but basically all the Murlis talk about obedience to a patriarchal figure, often seeming to confuse the supreme spirit with Brahma Baba himself. I felt very strongly and still feel that when we talk about the supreme spirit whose power we all obviously have experienced, it is not He or a Father figure, or any being that we would recognise. Are we humans so egocentric and unimaginative?

The experience of a spiritual all encompassing golden light and power of the universe is uplifting and wonderful but why do all religions (and I regrettably came to the conclusion that, contrary to the publicity as a University, Raj Yoga is a religion), insist on this archaic perception and style of language??!! It certainly alienates me and many others. I stuck it for so long because the BKs I knew were lovely sweet and gracious people, and I learned much and gained a lot to enhance my life and awareness, but much of the teaching seemed to me stuck in 19C uneducated India and I feel they need to move on.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm new to the forum -so hello everyone! I enjoy reading most of the postings!
_________________
Lamka

Joel · Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102

hi gyaniwasi,

Thanks for suggesting I've progressed. It's definitely sad when a person is still obsessing about Raj Yoga this, BK that, ten years after leaving the yagya.

I remember at the time I made up my mind to go I had the benefit of the support of another BK who was just deciding to leave her center. Our first real conversation was rather awkward. I was still suffering from BK speak, some time after we'd traveled together to Kuala Lumpur for a retreat, I supported her decisions to trust her own judgment and to accept her sexuality and orientation. A couple months later she was there for me as I prepared for a change in my life, accepting my own judgment and sexuality as well.

There were actually a number of steps--each a big awakening at the time--that led to my decision to pull out. Maybe others would like to share what ultimately led them to leave.

1. Acquaintance with the 12-step process

A student had encouraged me to visit some 12-step meetings, where I saw firsthand the liberating power of honest description of oneself in front of a sympathetic mirroring group. 12-step groups do not generally respond with advice, each tells their own story, one story leading to another.

This was a contrast to life with the BKs where sharing 'negative' experiences was frowned upon. I remember being told to speak of negative internal stuff was actually harmful, turning others away from God.

Well, in those meetings I saw only good coming from the ability to speak frankly, and I saw maturity, humility, honesty and humor far exceeding my own in the souls who'd been in the 12-step process for 10 to 20 years.

2. Acquaintance with the books of John Bradshaw

His most famous work is Healing the Shame that Binds Us. It shed a lot of light on the problems my mother faced as a result of abusive trauma in her early childhood. Also it helped me appreciate anger as a force for good. Emotions tell us that something is serious, or draw us to another.

I remember talking with Dr. Nirmala on a train ride about the positive aspects of anger. Maybe half an hour. She listened. I was then quite surprised when in class the next morning she gave her usual speech that 'anger is a fire that burns you and burns others' as though our conversation had never happened.

Suddenly it was clear a gap had opened between my own realizations and the teachings of the yagya.

3. An NLP session

NLP was the synthesis of two men, Grinder and Bandler, drawing on the work of hypnosis and brief-therapy pioneer Dr. Milton Ericson. An NLP guy came to visit me at the center. We had a session. I thought about asking him to use his hypnosis to help me eliminate my sexual desires. At that moment I realized that I valued my sexuality, didn't want to give it up.

Actually supressing sex led to some extremely intense experiences. Particularly I remember that the act of showering, running my hands over my own soapy skin, was highly arousing. Even if I didn't relieve myself in that instance, I could forsee that the hormones would keep building and building and eventually I would be unable to avoid the consequences. The suppression meant even in something common like riding in a crowded train, the slightest hint of physical contact with others triggered arousal.

In the state of being deprived of physical and sexual intimacy, any contact was highly intense. The contact of hands and drishti in taking toli. I remember that tying rahki was very intense because of the duration; especially recall that Sr. Sudesh (London) really held my hand and looked right into my eyes. A nice ceremony, but there was something wrong with touch being so highly rationed.

Look at the sea lions resting in the sun on Pier 42 in San Francisco. They're all lying in a group, flippers resting on one another. All very friendly, no pressure to work, just flop into the water every so often for a meal. So what's with all the compulsions of us humans?

The desperation for touch and its electrical effects were signals that all was not well. After ten years of gyan, I was so turned inward that I didn't even know how to play with kids. Other BKs would be playing and teasing while I could come up with nothing to offer. As though my own playful childhood had disappeared, died.

So I remember in Hong Kong it was highly affirming when a forward two-year-old came up to me and took my hand on an afternoon cruise.

In another episode, there was a sister from Singapore living in Hong Kong with a leg that dropped. Hiking one afternoon to a lookout above Madhuban with some friends, I overcame some internal confusion/resistance and took her hand to help her over the rocks.
Physical contact, my own decision. Supportive, positive, reassuring. The casual touch that the whole world knows about and in my version of raja yoga, had been denied. For what reason?

4. The Guide on Celibacy

I mentioned the Pathwork lectures in my first posting. The lectures have great titles like, "The Compulsion to Recreate and Overcome Childhood Hurts," or "The Higher Self, The Lower Self and the Mask." The lectures following the titles do not disappoint. The speaker, who never identified itself (hence simply called The Guide) often solicited questions at the conclusion of the lecture. At the end of a lecture entitled "Love, Eros and Sex," one of the audience asked about someone choosing celibacy for the benefit of humanity.

The answer given was (as I recall) that the choice for celibacy is often based on a fearful withdrawal from intimacy. Intimacy means revealing ones self to the other. There is risk in that. There is no risk in revealing oneself to a God who already accepts you. And wouldn't the task of serving the world be better accomplished with an understanding of true partnership, which is one of the most rare accomplishments in the human world.

I don't know if this clicks for you, but it did for me.

Soon after I fell in love for the first time as a post-BK adult able to act for himself. The experience brought such intense feelings that were impossible to reject as wrong. The Guide says the Eros, the force of attraction, gives a temporary hint of what genuine love is. Eros has benefits: will make an shy person outgoing, a miser generous; it breaks through a person's defenses, brings them to another, can serve as a bridge to a relationship of genuine love which is not a gift, which requires ongoing work to remain fresh and vital.

(The most widely available anthology of the Guides lectures is The Pathwork of Self Transformation. I never really examined the work of Gurjieff or Ouspensky.)

5. Yagya Silence on Mental Illness and Suicide

I remember my bubble got popped pretty hard after encouraging one woman to follow BK disciplines; subsequently she went pretty bonkers, her husband called me, yelled his head off at me for messing with his wife's head. Dr. Nirmala wasn't able to advise me much, and it seemed no one in the BKs had really planned or trained teachers to how to respond to students with mental problems provoked by joining BK beliefs and practices.

Soon after I went to London to investigate for myself the circumstances of a suicide, an Indian origin woman who had tried desperately to get time with Dadi Janki before, uhhh, offing herself. She had fallen in love with Julian Boles--smooth, Eton educated Bro, and subsequently thrown herself off a balcony, breaking limbs in the process. If I recall events correctly, she ended up marrying him and then, after months of conflict and confusions, taking the only means she could find to end her
pain.

I was reading John Bradshaw's books at the time, in which he introduces concepts of healthy and toxic shame.

I expected that a suicide would have sobering effect on seniors; that they would encourage caution among teachers. Instead Dadi Janki had apparently made no statement at all, showed no regret, discomfort or
culpability--where a healthy person would be upset, wondering what wrong they might have done, what more they could have done, etc.

I realized I didn't want to be a part of an organization that values its public face more than the welfare of its members.

Of course we can say that for nearly all of government.

If someone is ready to off themself, then why not, for example, offer them counseling or even a morphine prescription to ease the pain--incidentally some recent studies have shown that the brain's physiological response associated with mental pain is identical to its response to physical pain. Both are equally hurtful, and interestingly, access to the most effective and safest palliatives--opiate medications--is severely restricted. I believe it is because access to direct forms of pleasure threatens a society that supports its economy by channeling individuals' search for satisfaction into work, spectator
sports and shopping.

In that context, it's not surprising that society stigmatizes masturbation and BKs stigmatize all sex, both self-regulating mechanisms that satisfy the person's cravings. In both cases the group would prefer the individual's satisfaction be accomplished through acts that benefit the group. Although such preference may not be stated explicity,
it neatly explains some otherwise bizarre cultural biases.

That is a much larger issue than speaking about BK and post-PK realities, but my recent experiences helping care for a stroke patient
in a hospital ward--to take just one example--has shown me that authoritarian practices are much more widely found in our society than just religious groups.

6. Exit Interviews

As questions grew in my mind over the years, I made it a habit to speak with BKs who had left gyan, asking them why they left and how they were managing and so on. I remember speaking with Simon Vivian, who had left the center in San Antonio, Texas and moved to Redwood City, California. I had left the center by then. We discussed BKs bathing habits; I said that for restaurant workers, washing hands after a bowel movement is sufficient hygiene to prevent transmission of disease. He said that the effect of the yagya's bathing requirement is to make you ashamed of your poo.

I had visited Dr. Hansa in San Antonio before that; by that time I was testing various teachers with ideas that made sense to me, but were at the fringes or contradictory with gyan--for example that anger can be a positive force that alerts you to an injustice. It was stimulating to be there, but her lectures were still the party line and I could see my life could now longer be explained and guided by the general and absolute maryadas.

7. Sleep

I never could seem to get enough sleep. I was tired all the time, and after a nap in the afternoon (one to two hours, catatonic) I would awake feeling even more tired.

It was liberating to travel with Karuna-bhai one time and sleep in a center somewhere on the way to Ahmedabad with a bunch of bharatwasi brothers who didn't bother to get up for amrit vela.

The last couple years, my eyes would close and I would fall asleep nearly every time I sat in meditation, even while giving the course. So it was convenient when the student fell asleep first. :-/

Thanks for reading. And I hope those who mostly comment (or lurk) will find the courage to open up some of their experiences to the light of day; if not here, then to another.

kyra · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

Fabulous post Joel and welcome to the forum! I can identify with some of your experiences.

Joel wrote:
"I realized I didn't want to be a part of an organization that values its public face more than the welfare of its members."

Yes! Isn't it amazing how a BKs view is like tunnel vision when they are part of the yagya. They don't see these things - or don't want to see them.

I often wondered about their private thoughts, a lot of BKs I knew lived double lives - in one life they would be the perfect BK and in the other part of their lives they would date - occasionally eat meat - go out partying and enjoy healthy sexual relationships or interactions.