God?

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shanti

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God?

Post16 Sep 2013

Years have passed since leaving the BKs, but I am still confused about God. Before BK life I was an atheist, then I was taught that God could only be found through the BK organization and their practices. It feels strange to write this, but that's what I believed. Once beliefs form, they are hard to break. I am wondering how others have handled this question as I feel its time to move on.
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exbkmember

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Re: God?

Post16 Sep 2013

I was in love with God prior to joining BK, I have loved God since I was a little child. I was not raised that way by my family, so I trust that my opinion and feeling toward God are personal. I always considered God to be a gentle, loving and silent observer and companion. I never had any feelings of fear toward God.

In BK life, the way God was initially presented to me was very much in line with my own thoughts and feelings. The deeper I got in to BK, the more I found what they presented as God did not match my own experience. On meeting the one they claim to be God, I was forced to accept I did not agree with BK understanding of who God is. I was fortunate enough to get to be face to face with their God on stage in Madhuban and, on looking in to those eyes staring back at me, there was no doubt in my mind that was not God. I could see it was not Dadi Gulzar at that time. It was quite clearly not her in her body, someone else was in there but that someone was not the God of my understanding. I am glad I had that experience. It was disturbing and upsetting at the time but at least it made it clear to me that my doubts about Murlis were valid. Had I got so up close to that one earlier, I probably would have left sooner than i did.

After I left my personal love of God remained with me. I think that it is very personal and the God of my understanding would not hold it against anyone should they be an atheist. Any one claiming that God demands I fear God and unquestioningly obey their doctrines is clearly representing a false God in my opinion.

I think you should follow your heart and not worry about it too much. I think love is something that evolves naturally if and when it is the right time even when that love involves God. Many people consider God to be love and love to be God in which case there is no danger on you missing out, as if you have any love in you then God would be present in your life. It is my belief that God does not mind if we believe in God or not and will not love us any more or less one way or other.
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Pink Panther

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Re: God?

Post16 Sep 2013

Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.

―Christopher Hitchens, "God Is Not Great"

Shanti, the essence of the above quote is that "God" and theologies are clumsy attempts to manifest in explicable ways what may be considered the sublime "noble" aspects of human nature, whereas devils and other "demonisations" (Maya, Ravan) can comfortably (and conveniently) represent our "darker" sides or our fears.

"When the student is ready the teacher appears" or "Man is created in God's image". Such sayings tell us that according to our state is the "god' or 'teacher" that we'll recognise. What is truth for us at any time changes as we change. Our "God" is the idealised, aspired-to form which we infer to be there beyond our "everyday" consciousness, tickling the edges of our current state of feeling and understanding.

The loving God of Christ evolved to replace the jealous God of Abraham. The simple God of Martin Luther replaced the pompous tyrant that was the god of the Vatican. The merchant has Ganesh on his alter, the country maiden loves Krisna above all others.

The heavens used to be what we called the sky, that unreachable, infinite space above the clouds from where the sun, clouds, lightning and stars seemed to dominate and onto whose canvas, in our wondrous musings we projected faces , forces and all kinds of meaning, where heroes and the good were cast live among the stars. Now we reach there and beyond as we fly to a business meeting or a vacation or send our satellites and probes, so "heaven" has become another dimension, another time or place, or another state of mind. It is the "greener grass on the other side" of here and now.

God therefore, for any person, is what inspires you, what is at your core, what seems "right" and what seems "better" and can be given no other name or form.

If you once were an atheist and have now had your spirit stirred, you'll need to look at the psychology involved when the sense of "God" arises. Maybe read Jean Houston's 'The Search for the Beloved" for a psychologist's sympathetic investigation of this inspiring aspect of humanity. "The Mask of God" is also worthwhile, by Joseph Campbell (also available as video on DVD (maybe on Youtube?).

prosheen

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Re: God?

Post16 Sep 2013

exbkmember,

I had short stint with BKs but now I find I have simply lost all the love for the God that I had. To an extent, that I doubt if its a concept or reality. What I found missing in BK life was a search for self and I never understood how without realizing self you can realize something called ´GOD'. I too am honestly very confused about it.
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ex-l

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Re: God?

Post16 Sep 2013

Good posts people ... not in that you conforming to any ideas I have, but that I think you are all being very fair and sincere about yourselves and your own experience.

I was moved particularly by exbkmember's 'on topic' account of meeting BapDada in Madhuban. In truth, those are feelings many people have but, having made such an investment into BKism and spending their obligatory 6 months to one year being enculted into the community (Stockholm Syndrome), few are strong enough and honest enough to admit.

Yes, I can accept *something* is going on too ... but it ain't god in five thousand years.

Personally, I've stomached so much cr*p from the so called "Godly angels" of the BKWSU, that I am sick of all religions and see them as they mostly are ... nasty, often ignorant conniving little gangs jostling for worldly status and power, and the comforts and security that exploiting the masses and being inside a chosen few elite brings them.

I am not depressed, it is depressing when you see it, or force yourself to look at it time and time again.

Similar to what Pink says, the energy is already in life and the people. They and their god spirit is sucking it out of others. Where there is goodness in religion, it is there because the individuals had in in them beforehand ... and over the time of my experience of the BKWSU, mostly had it knocked out or taken away from them and spent instead on PR.

I also see differences in the nature of the souls being attracted to and sticking to BKism and will watch how that changes in the future.

I was stupid to this before but I read recently how all this "leadership" and corporate coaching stuff is highly popular just now because they are professional skills highly valued in the workplace, especially amongst the wealthier middle classes, or middle class aspirant.

What's that got to do with god?
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shanti

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Re: God?

Post17 Sep 2013

I sincerely appreciate reading your replies which validate my thoughts and feelings about moving on from the BK practices and ideas of God. Pink, thanks for referring the books by Jean Houston and Joseph Campbell. Years ago I was inspired reading Joseph Campbell, 'Hero with a Thousand Faces' but haven't read, 'Mask of God'. Also hadn't heard of Jean Houston so I checked out her website - good value!
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Pink Panther

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Re: God?

Post18 Sep 2013

Image
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ex-l

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Re: God?

Post18 Sep 2013

If God wants to exist, I am happy to allow he/she/it/them to do so but I would not trust or rely on them to do anything.

It strikes me that for all the attention, money and property they demand, they are notoriously fickle and unreliable. Therefore, I have more of a problem with the gods' accountants and property managers. I am sure we need them even less.

Honestly, how can anyone really believe that the pantomimes happening on the stage in Madhuban is really the god of all religion?

Is god really so mundane? I mean, at least Christianity was able to produce a Handel, a Bach and a Michelangelo or two.
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shanti

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Re: God?

Post18 Sep 2013

Exactly why I was never interested in religion - it poses many questions and answers none. I thought when I found meditation that it was a way to find God within, but over the years I lost myself in a maze of mind numbing ritual and commonly held but little considered beliefs and jargon. The external (clothes and food) became more important than the internal.
ex-l wrote:Is god really so mundane? I mean, at least Christianity was able to produce a Handel, a Bach and a Michelangelo or two.

And its saints and contemplatives.
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ex-l

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Re: God?

Post18 Sep 2013

shanti wrote:And its saints and contemplatives.

Point taken.

For me, the closest the BKs have come to producing a saint was Dr Vinay Lakshmi who started the Village Programme, and she was just more of a good nun. And despite however the BK spin doctors exaggerate it, she started her work against the will of the BK elite and the old maxim of "BKs do not do charity".

Never mind the god, if you want to know the spirit of the BKs, that is it right there.

Contemplative BKs are chided for having waste thoughts or even, God of the BKs forbids, questioning ... and not doing enough mundane service.

This is probably a question to discuss in another topic ... but what and where are the "great works" of the Brahma Kumaris?

If The Tree is a reflection of the seed, what is the nature of the BK seed?
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Pink Panther

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Re: God?

Post20 Sep 2013

shanti wrote:Exactly why I was never interested in religion - it poses many questions and answers none.

Hmmm. I thought it was the other way around. Religions give definitive answers to the indefinable and refuses to be seriously questioned!

Here is a very profound conversation on that topic, in the form of a comic strip. There are quite a few panels, but it is worth reading right to the end ...

http://comicsthatsaysomething.quora.com/A-Day-at-the-Park?
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shanti

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Re: God?

Post24 Sep 2013

Love the comic strip Pink.
Pink Panther wrote:Hmmm. I thought it was the other way around. Religions give definitive answers to the indefinable and refuses to be seriously questioned!

Interesting - I agree with you that religious dogma provides convenient answers and resists being questioned. My statement is not very clear - I'll try again - the ownership of God by religions and their attempts to provide answers by creating an external God or pigeon holing universal truth raises questions in me.
ex-l wrote:Honestly, how can anyone really believe that the pantomimes happening on the stage in Madhuban is really the god of all religion?

Good question.

My reaction to immersion in what I finally after many years believe was cult thinking created a good deal of suffering and a long list of unanswered questions. However, that said, I doubt whether involvement in any other group would have had the same impact, or awakened the longing for my own knowing or experience of truth. I take comfort from the idea that "we only know who we are by experiencing who we are not."
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Pink Panther

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Re: God?

Post28 Sep 2013

... raises questions in me
I thought that might be what you meant, but I had only what you wrote to go by.

"we only know who we are by experiencing who we are not."
Also said philosophically as "we define anything by what it is not as much as by what it is" And, very Buddhist, that would be followed by - then let even that go.

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