Dinosaurs and the fossil record

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
  • Message
  • Author
User avatar

arjun

PBK

  • Posts: 3588
  • Joined: 01 May 2006
  • Location: India

Dinosaurs and the fossil record

Post30 Jul 2006

Q.No.24: Kya Dinosaur sachmuch may huay hain ya yah keval kalpana hai?

Ans: Dinosaur aur dinosaur jaise bade-bade chaupahiya janwar dwapar ki sooruwat me hote the jo baad me dusre chaupahiya ke nasal me badal gaye.

Q.No.24: Did Dinosaurs really exist or is it only an imagination?

Ans: Dinosaurs and Dinosaurs like four-legged large animals existed at the beginning of the Copper Age which got transformed into other species of four-legged animals later on.
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10475
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Post30 Jul 2006

arjun wrote:Q.No.24: Did Dinosaurs really exist or is it only an imagination?
Ans:Dinosaurs and Dinosaur-like, four-legged, large animals existed at the beginning of the Copper Age which got transformed into other species of four-legged animals later on.

That is the standard BK line as well. I do not know that it was said officially but certainly that it was part of BK 'unofficial folklore'. The theory was either that when the nuclear power plants in the Silver Age were destroyed species were mutated or that there was some kind of war at the beginning of the Copper Age that caused it. As I said, both folklore rather than Shrimat. I guess most folk in Om Mandali knew nothing about dinosaurs and none of the rest cared. Is this a cultural thing? Or is it due to a complete lack of education amongst founding BKs? As kids in the West we are all taken to see massive dinosaur skeletons, personally, I have gone looking for and found small fossils.

Obviously, from a scientific point of view it is nuts and the answer far too incomplete. An wholly insufficient response. A non-answer.

Why, for example, did the dinosaur remains from that time fossilize but the human and other domestic animal remains not fossilized? How were those fossils laid deep down in layers of stone where human remains of the same time were not. Where were they created from, how and when destroyed or die out?


Science calculates that the dinosaurs existed for 165 million years and went extinct about 65 millions years ago. I don't "know" that either but we do know that the ecosystems that they lived in were vastly different from our from the plants life, seeds and DNA within them. It does take some time for genetic families and ecology to develop and mutate.
    If dinosaurs existed at the end of the Copper Age, that means at the same as Abraham and Buddha and the start of written, carved or drawn record and yet there is basically none at all.
    Conceivably, human beings might have noticed 40 foot flying Pterodactyls, 80 foot Brontosaurus, 3 tonne Triceratops and entirely carnivorous Tyrannosaurus rex strolling round their neighbourhood ... and been a *little* concerned.
Sadly, where as much as I want to accept and adopt Shiva as a wise and higher being or guide, he and his systems fail. Not so much just because he cannot answer or address school level scientific knowledge but because he attempts to address it with such basic mental plugs, non sequiturs and dismissals.

Let's be honest, probably - say - 85% of all human beings not just Indian villagers but any sort of villager, has very little scientific knowledge whatsoever and is happy and content with folklore, mythology and fairystories as entertainment. Let's say, what 95% of Indians, are happy with accepting Hindu mythology as unquestionable fact. That elaves a lot of folk for Shiva to prey on their ignorance before he gets pulled up ont his stuff.

OK. So forget the peace, love and understnading for a minute; let us have a proper scientific theory of creation and complete history of the Earth ... or have him admit that he does not know and explain why the 5,000 years.

surya

PBK

  • Posts: 132
  • Joined: 15 Jun 2006
  • Location: Delhi

Dinosaur remains

Post01 Aug 2006

Why, for example, did the dinosaur remains from that time fossilize but the human and other domestic animal remains not fossilized? How were those fossils laid deep down in layers of stone where human remains of the same time were not. Where were they created from, how and when destroyed or die out?

Dear ex-l,

What you mention above are very important queries.. maybe Baba has another explanation for this specific questions about the pre-historical animals. Can we post it to Baba? :?:

I am sure that the answer Baba has given about the topic was just simple answer but he might explaing a bit more about it to us! He already confirmed that the dinosaurs existed, but he was not questioned at that time as how the fossils laid deep down under earth and other animals or the humans fossils were never found in the same way as the dinosaus. :roll:

omshanti

surya

bansy

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2006

Post01 Aug 2006

If dinosaurs existed at the end of the Copper Age, that means at the same as Abraham and Buddha and the start of written, carved or drawn record and yet there is basically none at all.

The Copper Age was about 2500 years ago. This is the time when the "wisdom" of humans took a great leap forward on a global level. Many philosophers all over the world erupted with sparks of wisdom at the same time.

I do not know the exact dates (does anyone really?), but in general around this time, in Ancient Greece there were the ancestors or philosophy such as Telis, Heraclitus and Democritus (who I think had something to do with the Theory of the Atoms), as well as obvious wise ones such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. In China there were the philosophers on human and the universe by Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi, as well as those philosophers on principle and morals of human and social inter-relations such as Confucious and Meng Zi, plus other shools of thought by Sun Zi, Mo Zi, Hang Fei Zi.

I am sure there are others in other parts of the world, but at least in Greece and China for starters these were quite well developed civilisations. And some of these teachings still exist today. One could also say about Hinduism, Jainism, Yoga, Buddhism, etc.

Now, dinosaurs have seemingly seem to have roamed all over the planet, so surely such philosophers who were writers would have noted the very existence of living dinosaurs and made sense of them, even if religious folks may have thought of them as demons and mythological creatures.

I hope PBKs can ask Baba for a more comprehensive answer on the topic of dinosaurs.

However, I like to point out a statement a Buddhist friend told me on one of their Universal Truths : "Any beliefs that we accept as true without personal verification is called "superstition". Only when we hold supposed truth to the light of personal verification, can we achieve proper beliefs. In essence, you can believe whatever you want as long as you have personally verified, it actually does not matter who said it or not."

So maybe we'll never know if dinosaurs actually existed or not, or otherwise simply accept what is said by someone else.
User avatar

john

reforming BK

  • Posts: 1563
  • Joined: 03 May 2006
  • Location: UK

Post01 Aug 2006

It does beg the question why all the mystery? If Shiva is God and he explains the mysteries and secrets of life through Virendra Dev Dixit, why cannot he just say what's what?

The question of Dinosaurs must have been asked hundreds of times, it does seem odd that only vague sketchy answers are given. Then what does Ocean of Knowledge actually mean?

If Shiva only plays a part of 100 years how does he know what happens in the drama?
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10475
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Post01 Aug 2006

ex-l wrote:It was part of BK 'unofficial folklore'. The theory was either that when the nuclear power plants in the Silver Age were destroyed species were mutated or that there was some kind of war at the beginning of the Copper Age that caused it.

I was just remembering one senior Western BK, that is mentioned quite often on these forums, telling me that the early Copper Aged souls, a spill over from Silver Age with some advanced technology that then disappeared due to the increasing impurity of the Copper Age, went out and shot all these creatures with guns; that there were stories of these in myths and legends in Hinduism and elsewhere and some anomalous fossil records to prove it. There was always going to be a big book documenting all of this, did it ever make the press?

An interesting appendix to this discussion is how ever did we "suspend our disbelief ", as we were encouraged to do so, long enough to not only accept this unquestioningly but even then teach it to others? How could human beings be so susceptible or acquiescent to peer pressure? I remember that any questions to the Seniors about the 5,000 years would get very short shift. It worked for them ... no value in knowing ... remember Baba ... don't think ask too many questions ... etc

I think back and feel myself bracing myself to have to teach others the 5,000 year Cycle, as if it was some ultimate test of faith in God ... heading into the lions den. I have to say that more than a few students never came back after the lesson on The Cycle!

Now I regard it as the ultimate joke Shiva played on us, along the lines of, " ... if I can get them to believe in *this*, they will believe *anything* ", fitting into my theory that who or whatever God Shiva is, he/she/they/it considers that the only way to make humanity do good and get better is to be fooled and tricked into being so.

To be honest, I dearly wish that they would come out and be honest saying, " ... OK, we lied about the 5,000 years - or it is symbolic - but is was the only way that we could get you human monkeys to do anything! ". I just don't want to give the BKWSU the idea or encourage them to dump it in order to carry out their global domination plans.
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10475
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Dinosaur remains

Post07 Aug 2006

surya2037 wrote:I am sure that the answer Baba has given about the topic was just simple answer but he might explaing a bit more about it to us! He already confirmed that the dinosaurs existed, but he was not questioned at that time as how the fossils laid deep down under earth and other animals or the humans fossils were never found in the same way as the dinosaus. :roll:

Do the PBKs offer a better understanding of the earth changes that supposedly happened at the end of the Silver Age and Confluence Age?
User avatar

zhuk

non-BK

  • Posts: 124
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2006

Post21 Aug 2006

ex-l wrote:An interesting appendix to this discussion is how ever did we "suspend our disbelief ", as we were encouraged to do so, long enough to not only accept this unquestioningly but even then teach it to others? How could human beings be so susceptible or acquiescent to peer pressure? I remember that any questions to the Seniors about the 5,000 years would get very short shift. It worked for them ... no value in knowing ... remember Baba ... don't think ask too many questions ... etc

Mmmm ... that was me to a certain extent. Although I stayed for the whole course (don't know how I stood it now!), to this day I am still amazed that I fell for this pseudo-hindu-new agey claptrap in the first place. I guess I was depressed & desperate with a chronic back problem. That will make you crawl to anything looking for relief.

Ha, yeah. It IS their ultimate test of your "faith" to be able to supress your logical faculties sufficiently to believe this rubbish. THEN they know they have you ... cue guilt trip re even considering leaving and losing all the LOVEBOMBING & attention as the "new soul" (all that come last go fast rot). I personally felt a huge amount of peer pressure from the Dadis to say I believed in God at the end of the 7 week course ... they all gathered round me and each fired the question at me, and even though i did not really believe in anything the pressure was so strong I buckled and told them what they wanted to hear. It made me feel quite uncomfortable and I am ashamed to say that I crumpled under the weight of their combined expectations. Yes, humans have a deep and abiding need to feel like they belong & are loved and accepted by the group.

We are social creatures right down to our primitive reptillian brains ;) I was told the angst surrounding the 'dinosaur question' was due to science having made a grave blunder with the fossil-record and carbon-dating. Apparently, the whole methodology of carbon-dating is utter crap :lol: So humans did live concurrently with dinosaurs! Woohoo lol
Now I regard it as the ultimate joke Shiva played on us, along the lines of, " ... if I can get them to believe in *this*, they will believe *anything* ", fitting into my theory that who or whatever God Shiva is, he/she/they/it considers that the only way to make humanity do good and get better is to be fooled and tricked into being so.

^^hehe. If any type of 'god' even existed, why would they even bother with us! I always wondered ;)
To be honest, I dearly wish that they would come out and be honest saying, " ... OK, we lied about the 5,000 years - or it is symbolic - but is was the only way that we could get you human monkeys to do anything! ". I just don't want to give the BKWSU the idea or encourage them to dump it in order to carry out their global domination plans.

And expose their feet of clay?? Uh, I don't think so :roll: They hang onto credibility with an iron grasp (re the lies about having a permanent official UN prescence. Never let a few facts get in the way of BK marketing shall we LOL)
User avatar

pbktrinityshiva

PBK

  • Posts: 136
  • Joined: 06 May 2006
  • Location: Australia

Post03 Sep 2006

As a young child I was obsessed with dinosaurs, it wasnt till I was about 12 that my interested stopped. I had dino-riders, heaps of dinosaur toys..dinosaur books :oops: & used to draw them etc. Recently I went to museum and that similar feeling returned that I had seen these creatures before and interacted with them. *waits for laughing emoticons* hehe :P

bansy

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2006

Post03 Sep 2006

I wanted to (yes girls too) to have a T-Rex for a pet, preferably a small one, but when I saw Jurassic Park, I swapped it for Snoopy.

So maybe we did have these dinosaurs walking with us mankind before during Copper Age...I'd wish all dinosaurs were like those in the Flintstones. What am I going to tell my kid who is actually watching the cartoon now.... :oops: :roll:

Poor dinosaurs, they're probably all turning in their graves because everyone's abondoned them. Hmm, wonder where their souls went, into the "animal Soul World" ?
User avatar

pbktrinityshiva

PBK

  • Posts: 136
  • Joined: 06 May 2006
  • Location: Australia

Post03 Sep 2006

Well, according to Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) in the above question they are still here just in other forms. From the way Baba answered it I think (I am extrapolating) that in Silver and Golden Ages there were possibly large animals, however they were non-violent (so no t.rex) I guess :| . I think it must have been just after the fall into duality that the dinosaurs could exist. Just a small window in time until the conciousness of humans took another dive and they could no longer live. So animals became smaller with that loss in energy. Mother nature is a mirror I think to our own natures.

As per my understanding no animal soul that has come to earth from Soul World has gone back (at this point in time).

bansy

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2006

Post03 Sep 2006

Yes, the window theory when the dinosaurs roamed I heard many BKs mention too. I think the main issue of this thread, as with many cycle points, is how dating of past events, objects, fossils, etc is done because the dating methods haven't changed or at least not much since the early Yagya days (of Lekhraj Kirpalani) and today now, though someone can correct me on this. I heard from somewhere that the earth is spinning slower, did it use to spin faster (and thus the year as defined as a rotation around the sun was longer before than it is now). All theories of course.
User avatar

howiemac

ex-BK

  • Posts: 215
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2006
  • Location: Scotland

Post04 Sep 2006

bansy wrote:dating methods haven't changed

As I understand it, scientific dating methods are based on a model of a constant state, i.e. conditions were always as they are now. As we know, the only constant is change, so there is no reason i can see to accept the scientific figures (which differ hugely, in any case from one branch of science to the next, and from one dating method to the next).

Gyan indicates that there is a processs of continual , and very dramatic, change, throughout the Kalpa - with a very major upheaval imminent, and another upheaval between the silver and copper ages. Science takes no account of such change and upheavals.

Gyan also indicates that matter itself changes dramatically from subtle, at the start of The Cycle, to very dense now. And that the tilt of the earth changes from out of balance (now) to in balance (for Satyug). And that the continents move, in an expand/contract cycle, in a way now hypothesised even by scientists () - see:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast06oct_1.htm

http://kids.earth.nasa.gov/archive/pangaea/index.html

As earth becomes more dense you would expect the rate of spin to change, so a Golden Aged day or year will be very different from a day or year now.
User avatar

pbktrinityshiva

PBK

  • Posts: 136
  • Joined: 06 May 2006
  • Location: Australia

Post12 Sep 2006

howiemac, interesting.

I have heard that the incredibly old age of dinosaur bones are actually not confirmed by carbon dating but by predictions as to the age of the rocks in which they occur.

Also I read that many dinosaur bones which have been carbon dated are around the 16000 year mark which is a considerable difference to 2 million years.

surya

PBK

  • Posts: 132
  • Joined: 15 Jun 2006
  • Location: Delhi

Fossil fish fills evolutionary gap

Post19 Oct 2006

The four-legged land animals as Baba already mentioned:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/19102006/323/f ... y-gap.html

SYDNEY (AFP) - A 380 million-year-old fossil has filled a gap in understanding how fish evolved into the first land animals, Australian scientists say.
The perfectly preserved skeleton has revealed that fish developed features characteristic of land animals much earlier than once thought, said lead researcher John Long of Australia's Museum Victoria. "We've got a fish from the Devonian period about 380 million years ago and preserved in three-dimensional stunning perfection," Long told.

"It has revealed a whole suite of characters that link it to the higher land animals or tetrapods, so it's filling in a blank in evolution we did not know about before." The fossil of the Gogonasus fish, found in the remote Kimberley region of Western Australia at a site of a former major coral reef, shows the skull had large holes for breathing through the top of the head. It also had muscular front fins with a well-formed humerus, ulna and radius -- the same bones found in the human arm, the researchers said.

"The degree to which these features resemble the earliest four-legged land animals makes Gogonasus a new model in the picture of how fishes evolved into land animals. "Gogonasus is the missing clue in vertebrate evolution -- the world's first complete perfect skeleton of the kinds of fishes that gave rise to the first land animals." The transition from a fish living in water to an air-breathing land animal with arms and legs was one of the most dramatic transitions in the history of evolution and many unsolved questions remained, Long said.

Earlier this year, scientists reported the discovery of Tiktaalik roseae, a 375 million-year-old species of fish seen as the missing link in the shift from water to land animals. While Tiktaalik had a skull that was identical to an amphibian, Long said Gogonasus looks much more like a fish. "I like to say it's a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's showing that evolution is not as straightforward as we'd like to think."

The fossil was unveiled at the Melbourne Museum Thursday and will remain on display for a month.
Next

Return to Scientific questions for BKs

cron