I have had discussions with a BK (ex-Jehovah's Witness)

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I have had discussions with a BK (ex-Jehovah's Witness)

Post04 Sep 2013

I was never a BK but have had discussions with a practicing BK member here:


You see I escaped the Jehovah's Witness cult after being a high-ranking elder for a number of years and so I go to the JWnet forum for news and support related to the Watchtower and JW world.

Anyway, there is a member there that is a former JW calling himself "T D Joseph". This fellow is now trying to proselytize the people on the ex-JW discussion group and is preaching how wonderful they are. I asked him if he believed the following:

1. Do you believe over 7 billion people will die at an event called "the destruction"?

2. Do you believe that only about 900,000 faithful BK followers will inherit a heaven on earth prior to 2036?

He has yet to answer but I will keep you posted. Does anyone know this fellow or perhaps could contact him and help him to realize that the BKs are a cult like the JWs are?

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Re: I have had discussions with a BK

Post04 Sep 2013

Hi Eric,

Welcome on board ... afford yourself being piped on board, a 'full dress' salute, exchange of flags etc. It's nice to meet peers from other organizations as some of the few on earth who understand what we've been through. Although the names, places and terminology might be different ... and take a little time to get up to speed on ... you'll find its all very familiar territory.

In fact, we've often called the Brahma Kumaris the "Jehovah's Witness of India" due to
    a) Their unusual (for Hinduism) evangelistical nature,
    b) Their god's unfortunate habit of making false predictions of the End of the World, and
    c) Their tendency to send two older ladies, or an older supported by younger women, around to see people.
If you don't mind, I am going to copy the main post for our reference and discussion here.

I've never heard of the individual and their post tends to suggest he is a neophyte in what BKs call "The Honeymoon Phase" of "Intoxication". I think those words are clear enough in their meaning. Newcomers that are hooked by the BKs ... and we, as I guess you don't either, have no idea why one person will be hooked and another wont ... experience a kind of high a bit like being on drugs or falling in love hard which last, perhaps, 6 months or a bit longer in which they are enculted, indoctrinated and write this kind of enthusiastic drivel stuff.

As I guess also goes on in the JWs, newcomers to the movement are not told of the history, of all the failures, of the evolution of the teachings and so on.

Firstly, I have to thank you for picking him up and trying to make him think again ... should be an interesting project ... and, secondly, three other questions to ask him would be,
    Did he know that the god of the BKs had predicted "Destruction" (End of the world) in WWII, 1950, 1976, 1986, 1986 to 1996, and the leaders in Year 2000?

    Did he know that Lekhraj Kripalani was not 60 years old in 1936 and there was no mention of God Shiva entering him until after at least 1955?

    Does he think as 'Age of Truth' (Sat Yuga) can be built on a foundation of lies?
Now, the second one might seem a little obscure to you but trust me on it and his likely response to questions number one is "Baba (their god) has never given a specific date". The answer to that is, "yes, he has never given a specific date, such as 23 April 1976, but he has given specific years or events.

Does he trust yet another religious leaders which considerable re-writes its religion's history and scripture? (channeled messages which they call "Sakar Murlis" spoken via the mediumship of spirits).

In terms of the "opiate of the masses", going from a JWs to a BK is a bit like giving up methadone to start taking heroin. It is absolutely more of the same, except a Hindu-ize version.

The other think you could also pick him upon is why when his new god say that Christianity is if little benefit and, as "Bhakti" a "Path of Ignorance", why is he using it to try and encult JWs members? To the BKs, no other religion is capable of delivering liberation or liberation in life. "Bhagats", meaning worshippers, is one of the worst insults BKs will use.

What BKism gives is yet another hit of spiritual superiority ... and this time it is the biggest, best-est, most supreme and GLOBAL spiritual superiority. The BKs are the one and only true path. Their god is the God of all religions. Only through their god and religion can any soul truly know god, indeed ... and this is the kicker ... *all* other religions must come to them to re-learn their religion. Even *ALL* other religious leaders (Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith etc) *must* come to the Brahma Kumaris at this very special time.

That is a factual representation of the core of their teachings. The details might be a bit weird but I guess you get the idea. The BKs also *love* numbers (especially in the bank accounts). You've got the first 900,000, the 16,108 royal courtiers, the 108 members of the royal family of heaven on earth and, finally, the top 8 (spiritual) Emperors in the world all of whom, of course, are BK adherents.

The aim of such an "intoxicated" BK is to earn a high status is heaven on earth *at least* to become one of the 108, if not the 8 ... and to "make subjects" (literally members or servants of their future kingdom).

It's nutty as hell. Did we all believe it all? I think not ... but BKism can give many pretty intense experiences, e.g. visions, feelings of lightness, out of the body experiences and so on, and it tend to suck certain sort of people in. In India it works as a sort of Hinduism-Lite and appeal to bossy "aunties" types and naive young girls who don't want to marry the person the parents wants them to.
We had an easy exit from JWs by T D Joseph posted 5/19/2013 (Joined 5/13/2013)

We, as a family of 8 members, had a smooth entry to JWs when our mother, who was a very devout Catholic, learned from JWs that God has a people on earth. (Mat 24:45; and Is 2:2-4) My Brother and I took up full-time ministry. My Brother (T D Sebastian) progressed upto a Circuit Overseer and me as a key personnel in the Service Department of India Branch in due course of time.

When the JW organisation made frequent changes in their teaching (most prominent among them was the abandoning of century old, cherished teaching of “this generation of 1914” saying it “will not pass away without seeing the end of the world”), I knew that JW organisation itself is disowning its own claim of being the “faithful and discreet slave whom the Lord has appointed to serve the food at the PROPER time” (Mat 24:45)as they unwittingly served IMPROPER food at IMPROPER time. But I was unable to convince my family of this as they had already been deep into JWs for about 25 years by then.

Ironically, JW organisation itself unwittingly provided the reason for my family to “come out” of it—a very sound and solid reason! Our family had donated land for the Kingdom Hall [to North Parur congregation, Ernakulam, Kerala, India], which was next to our house. When the congretion grew bigger, it wanted to move to a larger facility, selling this facility. Our family wanted to REPURCHASE the land from congregation. Elders found the idea good and wrote to the Branch Committee for approval. To every one’s surprise, Branch Committee advised callously the local elders to put an advertisement in the newspaper on sale of this property and sell the land to the greatest bidder!

This was too much for my family to bear! They wrote back to the Branch Committee showing scriptural precedence in this matter that any one can repurchase what he has donated by paying “a fifth of the money of the estimated value in addition to it.” (Lev 27:15) Thus they were forced to give back the property to us. This incident proved what lies at the root of JWs! Our family returned to its former religion.

However, I continued my search for God’s people as there will surely be such genuine ones somewhere on the earth. (Is 2:2-4; Mat 25:1-13) This search was not difficult as I applied a simple criterion: Who is following the Bible princples which others leave as impractical? Such as

1) Vegetarian diet (Gen 1:29; Ex 20:13);

2) Purity, including absolute celibacy in thought and action—whether married or not. (Hebrews 13:4; 1 Corinthians 7:29);

3) No watering down of the principle: “Whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap” (Gal 6:7; Pro 22:8)

4) Starting morning worship as early as 4 A.M. (Mk 1:35; Jn 8:2);

5) Addressing God as Father and treating all humans as Brothers and Sisters “in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:24);

6) Giving more importance to women as they have one more physical organ than men (womb + men = women) and who proved stronger than men spiritually (men who were directly trained by Jesus himself fled when “many women” stood with Jesus at the time of his direst need—Mat 27:55)

7) Preaching that God-established paradise would replace present system in the generation of 1936.

I found that Brahmakumaris [www.brahmakumaris.com , http://www.BKWSU.org, http://www.bkinfo.in], having operation in all countires, have all the above features and much more. This is not surprising as “FRUITAGE” is the standard for God’s people. (Mt 7:17-23; Ro 2:12-16, 25-29; Lekhraj Kirpalani 10:37; Mt 21:43). [Interestingly, fruitage (fulfilling HIS own “saying”) is the standard even for God Himself, and is more important than ‘even HIS name.’ (Ps 138:2) If an ex-JW examines them, he will soon realize that Brahmakumaris have all the positive points of JWs and much more, and yet do not have any of their negative points. He will easily remember the old the story of hare and tortoise and conclude hare as representing JWs and tortoise as representing Brahmakumaris.

One example for simplicity in their teachings:

How did EVIL originate and how can it be conquered?

ALL humans are children of one and the only heavenly, supreme Father (just like there is only ONE ocean, even though called ARCTIC Ocean, ATLANTIC Ocean, Indian Ocean, PACIFIC Ocean as if there are many oceans—compareDeut 10:17; Mat 5:44; Rom 3:29); hence they share ALL HIS QUALITIES in miniature as effect contains the essence of the cause, and are primarily divine or spiritual with their fleshly qualities/needs becoming secondary. But when man falls from this primary ‘soul/spirit-consciousness’ (Gen 2:7; Mat 5:3) to body-consciousness, which is like “building one’s house on sand” or on what is purely physical (Mat 7:26), he begins to view or divide humans (1) as male and female [this generates the LUST], (2) as relatives & strangers, and my things & their things [this leads to ATTACHMENT]. And attachment leads to GREED. Obstructions on his path to desire/lust/greed cause ANGER, whereas achievements on this path bring PRIDE, which again paves the way for repetition of the above cycle. Thus a shift in thinking brought in these five major evils or vices (vikars, Sanskrit, meaning deviations)—which explains world’s sorry history.

Hence “Power of reason” (Ro 12:1) suggests that a shift in one’s thinking on the reverse would take him back to his original pristine purity.” (Mat 5:3, 8) And purity is the mother of peace. (Mat 5:9) Millions of Brahma Kumaris and Kumars have ALREADY proved this to be true. A shift in thinking can change a person 100% instantly, just like a lamp brings light instantly into a dark room that was closed for centuries. (Luk 19:1-8) This is possible because humans are children of the ALMIGHTY with free access to the “power beyond normal.” Each one can have a perfect control over his thinking (Compare Mat 5:27-30; James 1:14, 15; 1 Cor 9:27), hence is responsible for what he thinks. On extension, he can also have a perfect control over his speech and action as they both are just the manifested thoughts. God knows “there is nothing that humans may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them.” (Gen 11:6) What is needed is to put off the flame/the initial thought (eg. Joseph and Potifer’s wife), not when it has become a wild fire that has spread through senses, mind and intellect (eg. David and Bethsheba.)”

Joseph T D, India

Oh, and they're not "millions of BKs". They may be 100,000s of individuals of varying degrees of commitment. But not millions ... another BK tendency is a tendency to exaggerate widely.

The Biblical stuff I don't want to go near ... from an honest BK point of view, the Bible is load of rubbish. *None* of it's authors, precept or even messiahs *ever* had any direct personal contact with God. That is a "fact" according to the BKs. For example, Jesus *never* did. Jesus, according to the BKs was possessed by another soul they call "the Christ" and so was two souls in one body both of which then went on to reincarnate many times until today when they must both come back to the BKs to learn Christianity as they are both weak and impure now. Basically, they think Jesus confused this other soul with god who they and only they have a monopoly on.
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Re: I have had discussions with a BK (ex-Jehovah's Witness)

Post04 Sep 2013

Whew ... I see there is another ex-JW claiming to have "seen the light" with the Brahma Kumaris, here
I finished my last lessons with Brahmakumaris today. As they hint, there appears to be a team of them working over the ex-JWs as likely material for re-enculting. I can see the logic in that for them although do not condone it ... it would be preying on vulnerable individuals in my book.

BK follower TD Joseph's pieces also turn up on avyakt7.com. "Avyakt7" is a BK adherent we know very well ... he of the famous, "the bombs have been made and they will be used" quote (referring to the nuclear arsenal they believe with "purify" the world and kill of the rest of impure humanity. See also here and here.

To be honest, it's nothing new. It's the type of verbose, grandiloquent, garrulous, expatiative logorrhea that BK converts have been spouting for decades. It's almost copy and paste what's been written many times before.

Sorry you have to trawl through it all.

How can we help you? Needless to say, someone who has just finished the 7 introductory classes of BKism has not a clue on earth what they are really all about.
I finished my last lessons with Brahmakumaris today by Rose Mary 12 August 2013 Joined 6/8/2013

I finished my last lessons with Brahmakumaris today. I am convinced they have the truth. I only feel sad why I did not meet them earlier. We all wasted a major part of our lives with JWs. When I found the truth, I thought of sharing with you all—I was acting just on humanitarian ground. Whether you take it or not, that is your choice.

Science, like JWs, is limited in its vision as it takes into account only what is observable, and the process of observation, but ignores the more important entity—the observer. Since each and everyone of us is a CONSCIENT BEING, it concerns us all individually and severally. To deny ourselves the true knowledge of the consciousness (or truth about the body and SOUL) is to deny ourselves the right and duty of living a meaningful life. Brahmakumaris have the truth about the Souls and the Supreme Soul, hence are able to lead people into the path of purity and peace—something you cannot get convinced if you depend on hearsay.

To: Laika & cofty:

Regarding your findings about my identity:

When Joseph TD posted (on May 19, 2013) how he came out of JWs and how he found out the true people of God, there were many negative criticisms about Brahmakumaris on the post. (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/frie ... t-from-JWs)

That is understandable as people are aesily swayed by hearsay! Someone even accused him saying: He was “ proselytizing Hindu on this site.” Interestingly, Brahmakumaris are not Hindus. In fact, Hindus accuse them as being Christians.

However, when Joseph posted his first article (ADAM AND EVE—A NEW PERSPECTIVE) on May 23, 2013, there was vicious attack on his person (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/expe ... erspective

One member wrote: “a google seach shows quite a bit of this member's post is a word for word copy from this website-http://bkgyan.com/2013/01/02/adam-and-eve-were-tempted-by-sense-of-duality/

Perhaps he is not a deep thinker after all- just a copier person.”

Joseph was copying HIS OWN ARTICLE and modifying it for this site. The above link bkgyan.com had published his article on Adam and Eve with the writer’s name as Joseph TD. Yet how could one member discredit Joseph saying he was copying?

Seeing this cruel entertainment, his wife and his best friends felt the need of joining the JW board to contain such baseless criticism. They were all posting from their own computers (something you can verify from the IP address) and it is not unusual for one to use other’s computer when they are together occasionally.
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Re: I have had discussions with a BK (ex-Jehovah's Witness)

Post05 Sep 2013

Hey, I really like some of this ex-JW stuff. It's really funny and there are some great wits there.
Now BK Rose Mary wrote:If internet were available in first century, Jesus’s own Brothers would have set up a website against him.
AndDontCallMeShirley wrote:Wow, Rose. You certainly do have an active imagination. Cults love people like you.

They even have their own "Mr Green" called Comatose ...
Comatose wrote:This is all so weird.

This site is for current jw's and ex-jw's to talk. Not for BK's to convert. Go away!
Comatose wrote:re: celibacy

Rose rose rose ... One night with me and you'd take back your bollock-cart happily.
return of parakeet wrote:A proselytizing Hindu on this site!!!!Now I've seen everything!
Diest wrote:I fully support celebate cults. It keeps your from ruining the lives of children. Please stay celebate and never consider IVF.

T D Joseph has really swallow the BK hook line and sinker ...

He is even (already) claiming to be a "second birth BK" ... which sort of makes him doubly superior within the cult of superiority. One way they sucker people in is by making them feel special and telling them that they were BKs in their last life. They use this to explain why some people get really carried away by it all.
T D Joseph wrote:Two types of people join BKs. One group are those who have had the BK ideology in all their previous births. Example myself.

When I was a JW, in every step I was feeling, in my heart, this is not the way—but I continued with it for decades as I did not see one better. Finally, when I did have contact the BKs, I did not feel any of their teachings as new or strange. For me it was like watching a movie second time or third time or 100th time! Hence in my formal study with BKs, I never asked a question—for me it was like a delicious banquet! Most of my BK friends had this experience

The other group is like [his wife] Rose Mary, for them everything totally new. They study it in and out. In her case, she first studied all anti-BK sites, watched as many as BKs, and finally decided to have a formal study with BKs.

And people who do not join BKs now have always been behaving like that in all Kalpas (cycles of 5000 year history) ... So happens in each Kalpa.
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Re: I have had discussions with a BK (ex-Jehovah's Witness)

Post05 Sep 2013

Love it! First it was Cola wars, now it's Cult wars!

Unfortunately there will always be people hungry for what such groups have to offer. They all have "universal" aspects that appeal at different times, while their idiosyncrasies give them a product differentiation which seems to 'make sense' to certain people at certain times. I know it for myself. I did it when I got drawn in to BKs - drew links, saw patterns had experiences and invested them with particularised (usually self-serving) significance, and used the convenient labels they provided which seemed to fit.

The most interesting part of the phenomenon is the idea that somewhere, out there, is someone who 'has what I need", some group who are "it" and if I join them, I will have "it' too.

There's virtue in that humility of seeking and learning, but beware any teaching that discourages thinking for oneself, questioning everything, especially one's own assumptions or is offended by dispassionate critiques.

Do these ex-JW Converts to BK realise that if they accept BK ideas they are renouncing Christ completely? That is a major major decision for any Christian. Especially, paradoxical, if they are using the Bible to rationalise why the BKs are "the way" as those quotes indicated.

ex-l's reference to BK beliefs about who Jesus is, is important. BKs will state that one does not need to change one's religion to be BK. That's kind of true, but it's not different to a Muslim or Christian giving a traveller refuge in his mosque or monastery, saying, sure, you can rest here, study Koran/Bible, pray or meditate, without being asked to change faith ... but they will, with the best of intentions, encourage the person toward what they believe, naturally so, because they sincerely believe it to be true.

Once someone has decided to pledge loyalty to a new faith, in whatever way that rite is done in that particular faith, then it's hard to leave it. All the long-hard-thought-through reasons they gave themselves for converting have been rationalised and articulated, a lot of work has gone into that serious decision, whilst future "sense" that something is of incongruous or any 'feeling' of misgiving is shut down, discouraged from being analysed or given time. To do so is to betray one's conscious decisions and to be disloyal to one's past commitments, and be at risk of 'whatever that faith says you are at risk of' if you leave ...

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