Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

for measuring opinion on matters relating to their BKWSU experiences
Forum rules A forum specifically for polls on any topic relating to Brahma Kumaris. Anyone can vote here or discussion the poll. General conversion about the issues is best kept to the Commonroom.

Do you find yourself in this birth as a BK / ex-BK soul in black body?

Yes
4
17%
No
20
83%
 
Total votes : 24

  • Message
  • Author
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post18 Dec 2016

Short after thought.

In conclusion, I'd say "African spirituality" is more predicated on spiritualism and if you are taking about the "non-physical" aspects of life then, within the context of the "Dark Continent", that means a huge host of non-human spirits and spirit worlds ... ingored within BKism.

I knew a spirit medium from Zanzibar as a friend, for a while, and heard about her process of intiation and so on. I am aware there's a lot more weird and wonderful psychic stuff going on than we hear about. But was there anything to compare with, say, the great monasteries of either Europe (Christian) or the Far East (Buddhist)?
Offline

onthor

  • Posts: 78
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2016

Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post18 Dec 2016

ex-l, in the original post I did not use nor did I imply the word 'more'. Neither was/is the word 'more' necessary in my original post. It is not necessary as a qualifier nor is it necessary as a comparator nor is it necessary as a form of emphasis - this is the point I am making. Your use of the word 'more' completely takes us away from the simple statement that I made and whatever spin I choose to put on it that inclusion misrepresents my simple statement - that's all ex-l.

You then clarify by typing >>"I meant "more naturally religious than they are". "Or appear to me", if you wish to look at it subjectively."

What does "more naturally religious than they are" mean? Is it like I might say since leaving the BKWSU I have become "more" African in my outlook than I am/I was/I appear to be when looked at by another or indeed by myself?

As is to be expected, I can clearly see that though we have both left the BKs, we are not only vastly different ex-BKs but we are also vastly different humans - nothing earth shattering in that. I seem to recall that as a BK student there was the teaching that 'there is benefit in everything'; and so I hope that I have left the BKs and 're-joined' the rest of the human race as an expression of my development and natural, eternal love for my fellow humans.

I joined this website with a lot of joy in my Being and so I readily, naturally admit that am not here to fight with anyone over anything. As my BK days drift further and further into my past it becomes relatively easy for me to see what I may be against (at any particular moment in time). Which perhaps reveals the more profound question of how and where will I find what to be? And what to be for? ...

And having just typed that last question a possible answer rang like a wee small bell, plain and simply in my head.

OM! aka "I AM" aka simply be.

Thank you ex-l

Regards

onthor
Offline

onthor

  • Posts: 78
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2016

Eternally Gifted & Spiritually Attuned AFRICAN

Post18 Dec 2016

ex-l, truth is that I am content with the way that my life is progressing since I left off being a regular BK student, and fortunately for me I do not see it as my place to trot out counterpoints to the various statements and claims that you repeat and assert as though they are incontrovertible facts. If you care to you will have to do your own work to attain knowledge and discover truths to counter-balance those lopsided ideas you have acquired about the world we live in.

A verse from the so-called 'good book' comes to mind:
A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.

Here is a Brother who also reasoned eloquently about the what we can do with our sorrows

I came here in peace; I depart in peace. Stay Blessed and if perchance you are an Eternally Gifted & Spiritually Attuned AFRICAN; keep rising.

regards

onthor

Views: 19597
Replies: 107
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post18 Dec 2016

Best just make your point, rather than point out my inability to make mine! (It's only a discussion on a forum, not a thesis, and sometimes I don't pay 100% attention to detail).

OK, you wrote I "do not have any clue how spiritually attuned the African really is". You're using "how" as an exclamation to emphasize the extent of the "spiritually attunedness".

I am asking what you mean and about whom you mean. Define "spiritually attuned". I am pulling you up because in BKism, our ideas - the words we said - were not challenged and, God forbid, the Seniors did not encourage us to challenged theirs, or the core of the teachings! We were dumbed down. The most you might get to a 'non-Murli' based idea, true or false, is "thank you for sharing" before the Sister passes over you for someone else, as long as it roughly encouraged and affirmed the general trend, e.g. like you saying "Black people are spiritual...".

I mean, imagine if you had said, "how politically attunded Black people are (e.g. to issues relating to class and racism)".

Here, I encourage people to think and question and define what they mean. Yes, "playing devil's advocate" if you wish.

Other mystics have other view about different races having different kinds of souls, "soul roots", or "soul paths", e.g. different balances in their chakras, or different lessons in life. I think I could buy into that ... but how would it work in mixed race individuals? How much is nature (soul), how much is nurture, and how much is genetically determined?

Living in one of the most diverse parts of the country, if one was to adopt the soul/reincarnation model, I'd also say there was a confusion of souls born into different bodies too ... but such an idea would quickly become contentious, e.g. white souls in black bodies.

It would, however, be inline with other BK concepts, e.g. (previously) female souls in male bodies.

Perhaps we can account for self-hating individuals, or individuals ashamed of their racial roots, as racists re-born into the opposing race in order to pay back their karma or learn a lesson in life!?!

(I tend to avoid such unprovable, speculative questions).
Offline

GuptaRati 6666

  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2015

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post19 Dec 2016

Onthor and Ex-I, I am responding to your previous posts. Ex-I, it is nice of you to read Dr. Rodney's classical work especially from an ex-BK perspective. I can still remember as a dissident BK taking time off from the Sunday afternoon Raj Yoga classes to attend poetry reading sessions and political discussions at Professor Rodney's home in Georgetown. I also have a copy of his classical work and plan to acquire his biography written by a professor at the University of the West Indies.

In discussing Africa, we must remember the carving up of the continent by colonialists: Saharan Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam originated from Saharan Africa. Egyptian mysticism has its presence in all three religions and there is evidence that Jesus himself was sent by his parents, a royal family in the Roman occupied lands, to study Eastern philosophy in India, Persia, Tibet, and Egypt.

Historical evidence demonstrates that Jesus was himself of mixed ethnicity. When we think of young, gifted, and black, I think of Jesus the red head, curly haired, grey to greenish eyed six footer, copper toned skin, returning from his studies abroad after an absence of more than a decade to find his family lands and other parts of his family's kingdom taxed by the Roman occupying forces. With 500 mounted archers and sicciri (assassins) at his disposal, the historical Jesus persecuted war against the Roman Empire, including asymmetrical warfare. In the long term, the Romans lost and had their Empire sacked as they had tried to cleanse the earth of Jesus and his family.

Today, the West cannot survive without raw materials from Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa. Qua mi Nkrumah once said that a giant stature should be erected to honor the mosquito. Malaria, endemic in many parts of Africa, kept the colonizers away.

Two factors played a significant role in the colonizing of Africa, the revolver and machine gun; and the discovery of quinine, an anti-malarial herbal medicinal.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Foxy Brown and the BKWSU ...

Post19 Dec 2016

Come to think about it, I don't know what happened to Cynthia (she was older and must have passed away by now), but all the seminal "Young, Gifted & Black first generation in the BKWSU" left. Eugene Romain is another name which comes to mind, he who championed the child abuse/child protection issue. A real icon, probably long forgotten and not talked about.

The only direct impression I gained from a Guyanese is that Guyanese spirituality - would it be possible to define such a generality - was not purely Africa but also had some South American mixed in.

I was interested by Dr Rodney as I had just recently watched a 1970s documentary about Black Power - and an original Pam Grier blaxploitation movie (Foxy Brown) - and was reflecting upon it, looking back from this day in age when "Black Life Matters" has, again, become an issue in the USA due to disproportionate police/state killings - and my own critique of BKism is largely economic/class based which would align me with a Marxist/socialist/anti-capitalist view such as his.

Many people misinterpret that as a suggestion that BKism is *just* all about the money. It's not (for me it's largely about class ascendency). But to truly understand BKism, one has to look at it from such a perspective.

(Very roughly, Marx's class theory rests on the premise that the histories of all societies are the histories of class struggles and how the relationships between human beings are shaped by their relative positions in regard to the means of production and their relative access to resources and power, cue: an entirely separate discussion about 'BKism and the means of production'!).

Imperialists ... Empire builders ... amongst which I see the BKs ... tend to secure power by either co-opting the brightest and best amongst which every society they expand across or, if that is not possible, by annihiliating them. Of course I would agree this happened, and is still happening, to Africa and the African diaspora in the Americas ... keeping it down or driving it back to pre-civilised existences.

Of course, within BKism, everything is done at a far more subtle level ... challenges to the leadership's authority are dealt with via 'character assassinations' and outcasting rather than actually killings although, spiritually, those must feel very much like a attempt on one's life.

I have to say, in hindsight, the Black Power activists came across as being really innocent and naive in the light of what we know today about the nature of power, and how the power of capitalism/neo-liberalism has grown. I fear Dr Rodney would be about as out of date today as Fidel Castro was.

The BKs would have condemned him as suffering from uppity "Brother's Maya" (Pun intended) and sidelined him quickly so as not to disturb their Right wing/establishmentary political interests.

I am pretty sure he would not have given them much time.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post20 Dec 2016

GuptaRati 6666 wrote:I wanted to mentioned ... West Indians, the BKs never contacted or tried to contact.

You mentioned that some BK/s were high up in the Guyanese government and so consequently they would have avoid "serving" ... and hence taking the service of young black people in such a direction as Rodney's.

That can only be Shiw Sahai "Steve" Naraine, Gayatri Naraine Father who the BKs idolised as their only political VIP at that time, and a key to many doors of power.
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1620
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post20 Dec 2016

Personally, I would feel that such a revelation would be like a confession that I had been kept in a state of mental and spiritual entrapment - but, remember, I was an adult when I joined-up so I also feel that I have to take some ownership of that.

So, it is a quality of adults that they never get fooled or entrapped? I must be a child still, and at my age!?
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post20 Dec 2016

Does that way of thinking sanction the leaders and organization for carrying the spiritual fraud/manipulation out?

Personally, I'd describe "humanity", or being part of humanity, as extending sufficient care and compassion to all others so as not to harm or mislead them.

But it's true, as old and wise as you get, someone always seems to be able to work out a new way to screw you over. It seems like it's just the mentality of some kind of people.

And, to keep on topic, how should races such as Africans or lower castes, who have historically been exploited and may have few options in life but to be exploited, feel about and respond to such a principle?

It is, of course, a BKism ... like they say, "no one forces you to join or stay, it's your decision". But is it when we are have such string in our minds pulled with talk of god and eternity etc?

It's an exaggeration but when I read that I thought of the young Asian women who end up being trafficked (poor Nepalese are often victims). Sure, they too should probably "own" being stupid enough or needy enough to falling for whatever false promises the human traffickers offered them ... but is that the right way for us to think about such things? I tend to think the same for all the young women who get sucked into the bottom end of BKism, e.g. the village girls who end up as unpaid house sevants to them.
Offline

GuptaRati 6666

  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2015

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post21 Dec 2016

Though he was initially a technocrat in the Burnham regime, Uncle, former Vice President Steve Narine did have a great deal of political power and played a pivotal role in assisting the BK expansion in the Caribbean and Americas. Incidentally, both of his sons were school mates of Errol, prior to the BKs' appearance in Guyana. Ravi, the eldest son, was Errol's senior by two years or classes at Central High School and Errol was Krishna's senior by a few years at St. Stanislaus College where Errol did his grade 13 or sixth form studies in mathematics and the physical sciences.

Later, Colonel Brenda Aaron became a BK. Brenda was the highest ranking female officer in the Guyana Defense Force (GDF). Years later, one of Errol's cousins, without his influence, developed an interest in Raja Yoga. Brenda and Errol's cousin, a business woman and Brenda are great friends. Before joining the GDF, Brenda was a teacher at the elementary school where Errol was a pupil though she never taught him.

There were also Ray and the Choy family active in the BK movement in Guyana. Unfortunately, Andrew Choy died in the late 1970s. Walter and Christine Choy were dedicated BK students. Christine who was brilliant and beautiful became a surrendered Sister and was later incarcerated on drug charges. Walter succumbed to malaria while performing service in the hinterland of Guyana. Christine now has a happy productive life.

Walter, Ray, and Errol were the intellectual dissidents at the center in Georgetown and remained friends after leaving Gyan. Ray was a senior agronomist in the Guyana Government who in many ways exemplified the scholastic and scientific benefits of Gyan in his field of tropical agriculture.

There is a distant uncle of Errol the BKs might have contacted, Eusi Kywana, a politician, mystic, leader in education, and vegetarian.
Offline

GuptaRati 6666

  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2015

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post21 Dec 2016

Guyanese spirituality is influenced by each of the ethnic groups resident in the country. There is a co-dominance of the Indian culture, Red People, Chinese, and African culture. The Red people are the indigenous people of South America, including the Macushi, famous for making one of the most potent poison dart mixture for use in blow pipes.
Guyanese are accustomed to Indian mystics visiting Guyana and conducting workshops.
Offline

onthor

  • Posts: 78
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2016

Eternally Gifted & Spiritually Attuned AFRICAN

Post22 Dec 2016

Because I did say and mean "personally" I couldn't give a jot for any extension or spin that others may choose to put on what I said and how it might be interpreted.

I think I have posted enough on various topics to indicate that I do feel that the BKWSU could be a bit more 'open' about certain things but I only started to formulate this opinion as I was on my way out. For every single day that I was a BK I believed that the everything I understood of the teachings and ethos of the organisation were representations of ideals that I wanted to live up to. During my time I was wholly ignorant of everything that i read on this website regarding the BKWSU.

I don't have any anger or bitterness or any deep sense of rancour. Nor have I set myself a mission of exposing them or calling them to account or however one may want to term it. If the BKWSU will ever need to give account for itself in a forum that has greater authority that any human can ever imagine then so it will be.

I think that I've posted elsewhere that as I see things now, the BKs and their kind are simply following in a long line of such groups. I do also feel that I was at a vulnerable stage of my life when I met the BKWSU but maybe within that state of vulnerability there remained a kernel of impregnable strength that kept me from a more devastating form of self-destruction ... Maybe it's because I am an African that I survived somehow ... lol ... only kidding! After I typed that word destruction I heard the tune to that song, "Maybe it's because I am a Londoner that I love London town" in my head so I borrowed it to finish things off on a light note.
Offline

onthor

  • Posts: 78
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2016

My feelings about and response to such a principle?

Post22 Dec 2016

ex-l wrote:.. And, to keep on topic, how should races such as Africans or lower castes, who have historically been exploited and may have few options in life but to be exploited, feel about and respond to such a principle?
ex-l it ought to be obvious that I would never want my words to be taken as a form of apology for any and even historical exploitation. Like for instance the genocide that the Germans conducted in Africa long ages before the Jews fell victim. Nor would I want my words to be seen as an apology for the members of the British religious establishments who conducted similar genocides in wiping out large numbers of New Zealand's Black indigenous populations.


The folks I referenced (to name but a few) were not in the 'few options' salon. They were victims of sanctioned, well thought out and deliberately executed 'principles of extermination'.

So my feelings about and response to such a principle as you raise is very clear - I would love for all of humanity to wake-up and live better together because we are all Brothers and Sisters.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post22 Dec 2016

Thank you. Me too ...

I suppose the BK apologist response to it would be that BKs all carry their past sanskars and only slowly washing them out ... hence gross and subtle elements of racism and casteism will still exist within the organization.

I am not saying I buy into concept. It sounds great for those whose "sanskars" are of being "top dogs" ... White Anglo-Saxon males and old Sindi females, perhaps ... but not so fine if they are lower caste females or lower earning males.

The question then is ... what checks and balances are put in place to avoid abuses?

Relative to this, something that comes out of BKism for me, is how uncommunalistic BKism and the BK community is.

Wealth goes in one direction ... to the top. Pooling and sharing wealth, establishing 'commonwealths' like the Quakers or orthodox Jews do was actually forbidden in my time (i.e. no doing business with other BKs). That's changed a little with the Brian Bacon Corporate Consulting Wing of the BKWSU ... but only within an elite (primary White and primarily male BKs) and serving an elite (Fortune 500 corporations ... the modern imperialists).

From C. L. R. James (another noted Pan-Africanist and Marxist)
The race question is subsidiary to the class question in politics, and to think of imperialism in terms of race is disastrous.

But to neglect the racial factor as merely incidental is an error only less grave than to make it fundamental.

BKism, for me, is largely about 'class ascendency'. Social climbing from a region where class or caste is a matter of life or death and passes down generations. Especially going back to Lekhraj Kirpalani time.

In the West we are exceptionally fortunate to live with such relatively generous rights, social safety nets, class mobility and concepts such as equal opportunity.

I don't know or understand what evil germ drives/drove human beings to do what they do or did to each other either. I don't think there's any master plan to life anymore. Humanity appears to be just one big fist fight most of the time, a species of which all the other species on this planet would be far better off without.

However, if you want to survive or even thrive, you need to invest a little time or energy working out how the game works and learning how to dodge the bullets both physical and metaphorical.

A was acquainted with a guy who was a famous judo/karate player at an olympic level. I cannot remember his name, it was a long time ago, but he was Black and he taught local kids in London. What he tried to do was build confidence in them not by developing anger or encourage a grudge for history but to re-consider it as strength for having survived and even going as far as being "thoroughbred" as, in fact, their genes had been thoroughbred.

If it was a White suggesting that, I think it probably would have been a little close to the bone but as a "surviver" himself, I suppose we can give him a pass. However, to be honest, I think any of us can be equally proud/grateful for surviving evolution as far as we did. I remember watching a Mongolian Buddhist grandmother illustrating how precious life was to a grandchild but getting them to hold a needle point up and then spilling a handful of rice on it. Life, she said, was as lucky as a grain of rice falling right on top of the needlepoint and staying there.

Actually, don't you mean Australia or even more Tasmania? I think the Maoris actually gave back as good as they got for the most part hence their relative equality and position within society. I don't know how "Black" I would call them though.

They were Polynesians who migrations out of Southeast Asia and Taiwan.

It's only the name of the rugby team because their shirts are that colour.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 10019
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Young, Gifted & Black in the BKWSU ...

Post23 Dec 2016

Some background on the kind of Indian culture values that would have shaped the mentality of Lekhraj Kirpalani's generation. Such references to blackness, such as "blackening one faces" used to be common in the Murlis but I believe they've largely edited them out now giving a false representation of their guru and god spirit.

From: 'Resisting Racism and Xenophobia: Global Perspectives on Race, Gender, and Human Rights' by Faye V. Harrison.
The sexual metaphors of “lewdness and hypersexuality, as applied to persons of low caste, are no different from those applied to persons of the dark races ... blackness becomes a metaphor for inner darkness or moral degradation”

The stereotype of a low caste man is that he is always dark and ugly looking, whereas a low-caste woman is dark-skinned, but “well endowed physically and usually sexually attractive”.

The bodies of low-caste women were seen as common property. Harrison interviewed a low-caste middle aged woman, who said that “the high-caste [men] will protect their own women ... (but) will exploit (our daughters) at the first opportunity”.

Even today, the attitudes of high-caste men towards low-caste women are “modeled on certain stereotypes reminiscent of the racial metaphors of black women”. Sexual harassment of maids and so on are common. Men and women in India today casually compare uncouth and non-normative behaviour to low castes: “a woman dressed in nonacceptable aesthetic standards may be referred to as being dressed like a bhangan (sweepress), and a dark and ugly woman is often described as being a churhi (very low caste)”.
PreviousNext

Return to Polls

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests