XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

Since 'distancing' myself from the BK organisation about two years ago after 8 years in gyan, I initially experienced a sense of relief and then some guilt and then the 'coming down to terra firma with a heavy bump' as I let go (not totally) of shrimat.
I now have a very different perspective on the BK organisation and I am happy to be on the fringe for the moment, still keeping in touch from time to time with my very good Brahmin friends.
I had always been aware that my relationship with Shiv Baba was never very strong, but that reading the murli opens up my mind and brings me close to LOVE. There is a consistency in the murli that is absent from all other scriptures or knowledge that I have read. It captivates me and pulls me and I feel a subtle connection to LOVE.
Can anyone share their experience of the subtle source of LOVE.........
God is Love, Love is God,
Good is Love, Good is Love?
Wahl

Guest · Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject:

I don't quite agree with your view on murli's. I think if you had a closer look you would surely see that it is mainly a manipulative speech that induces an unconscious fear in order to keep you attached to "Him". I strongly believe in reincarnation and it is obvious that through all these lives of pointless devotion, most people have built up a deep relation with an unknown entity based on fear. The bk's like to think they have leaped this, but the truth is different. Would any of them dare to "defame" the 'almighty god'?? I don't think so. They have all sunken even deeper than any other time in their live(s).They make a miserable and unkind impression, one that dislikes human beings for what they are. And yes, there are a million reasons to hate human beings for all the bad they do, but that's not the point of life, now is it?

I'd say: liberate yourself from all the crap and guilt! Look at yourself and what all that "love" has done to you. And why isn't it surprising that most people attracted to the bk stuff are people with personal and psychological problems? Start believing in today instead of tomorrow, because today can be lived and tomorrow can only be dreamt of. Shrimat are the rules that prevent you from experiencing today as you should. They make you dependant of a being that you cannot truly know. It is like marrying someone through the internet: it's ridiculous.

Kikas · Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21

From a very personal point of view I say from my own experience that the best way i felt God's love was really by loving myself in every way even my darkest sides. i feel as loving God when i love the light in me and believe in it, and I feel as loving God when I love´the dark in me and understand it, then I feel God is really loving me.
That entity can be one of the faces of what we may think is God but then if so ,Hitler is as well... We don't know mentally how to define God, but I say that certainly he is not that sole entity... Saying that God exists, it may be said he doesn´t exists... we are just human beings trying to figure that out... But whether God exists or not it only makes a difference to our individual faith, believe or disbelief it won't affect Him at all- God may be many things and none of those as well. For me I feel God as being the max experience inside of me of Love and silence and my own spirit... whether some one helped me feel that way, even if my mind created all of that, that is God for me now, that is at least what I like to call that experience. And maybe tomorrow i find out that God is so much more than that, and maybe that he doesn't even exists.... It really doesn't make a difference.

Love truly real love is to be loved for whatever you are and the way I see it, God can't number anyone, punish anyone elevate some and leave the rest behind, be a real father to some favorites and a stepfather to the others... And I'm not sure you need a god outside of you to experience love. Just open your heart and feel it for the person closer to you, yourself. And then see that beauty in the next ones you meet and if you can the people you hate and love the hate feelings in you as well, don't repress them, they are not your enemies only if you attack them. When I learned to love the things I thought to be bad inside me I got the chance to see that they were trying to help me to see the fears behind them and what didn't had the guts to face on the depths of me and then outside.

If you want to have true love for God, then love the truth first. Even if there's no proof from scientists, or whatever, your heart tells you cause then there is the flexibility to accept that even the truth can change as you grow inside you and it becomes your companion... Don't people say God to be the truth? Any god can say to be the truth, but our heart knows better.

Of course this is my experience not the Maximum Universal Truth!!! Take or use it...
Wink

Kikas · Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21

Love is bigger than you, bigger than me and all of us toghether. We just have to let it in ... can you feel it?

...Or then love not feeling it!

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

Babbit · Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Location: UK

I have to agree with Kevin that the murli is not an instrument for finding God's love, unless love is administered by totally destroying a person's self esteem, self concept and self worth. I lost track of the number of times 'God' called me a traitor (because of my normal human emotions) or told me I was impure or that I just wasn't trying hard enough in the murli. Is God like the army where you have to be destroyed and then rebuilt into an obedient and unthinking drone in order to be (or feel) loved?

We were programmed to think that the murli is where to find God's love and this disempowers. It's a very handy instrument of control for the BKs.

I agree with the other correspondence that love is always around us, but we are often unable to allow it. I think it's important to stress that real love from 'God' or however you conceive the being is unconditional, so not dependent on whether I do or think the 'right' things. So perhaps a crucial aspect to allowing this love is acceptance: that right here, right now, I am worthy of love -- more love than my human mind could imagine -- and no action, thought, emotion, religion can alter that fundamental truth.

But knowing it and experiencing it are often two separate things. Sometimes I will stop my thoughts and ask that Being, 'Do you love me now?', knowing that the answer must be, 'Yes, I love you more than ever', and I keep doing that until I feel the love. I guess it's a bit simplistic, maybe not as subtle as you requested, but it helps me to tune my thoughts into the right wavelength.

You mention something important, too: don't ignore your intuition. Don't ignore those feelings.

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

The dalai lama was once asked "what is the meaning of life"? His answer was "Be happy and make others happy".
Good answer (of course). The trouble is, it doesn't come naturally to most of us at this time. So, I feel the need to find a way of life that helps me to change my sanskars. I want to be happy by nature.

For me, meditation and stillness I feel is the answer. Still the mind, keep it simple and see what happens. No expectations.

I find it strange how there can be so many interpretations of the way the murli makes a soul feel and can most definitely identify with the guilt and fear that can be accumulated from listening to the murli too. I am trying to train myself not to attach myself to those things now though, which, ironically is a perspective I had not managed to truly have when I was a 'practicing' BK. Spiritual growth, for me, is about keeping your eye on the Good Stuff and not even giving the bad stuff a foot in the door..... not even a thought, let alone discuss it's validity. That just keeps the negativity alive and kicking.
with love,
wahl

Kikas · Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21

Can i tell you something Whal... hapiness is not the meaning of life and it's useless to just be obcessed with the transformation of sanskars...

Like Kevin has said most of us still haven't left the program we were cauth into and still have that viced thinking in terms of bk knowledge. There is a bigger truth outside of the bk matrix and this one can even explain how this sort of programs are created. You are much more greater than you think and hapiness is too small for the maximum goal to be achieved. There is nothing wrong with you... but it won't be enough to just say it to you. I'll tell you God is much more than this Shiv Baba thing, and you are much more than a peon on this game. The cicle is not a circle, it's a spiral. Programs can be created to stuck people on what they create with their own thoughts, and it becomes real to them and the others they stuck in as well. I tell you knowledge is power but the truth is even greater power. Someone said "The truth will set you free" Well for me it's working. As long we keep believing in those lies and thinking that we abandoned God we are still running under the program and unable to see the reality. in spite of all the propaganda and new age craze, there are people that really know what this is all about, they don't stuck people, they don't think to be better than anyone and are there giving the clues. The good feelings we felt with the murlis, meditation, so on, so on, God's company... bah, only the Brahma Kumaris can give??? Ah, what a laft! That is nothing really... You see, when i left I felt like being on the basement of the house was the world, not knowing if I could feel the sun in my face again, but I did and tell you that the breath of fresh air in freedom is very tasty and the world is much wider than a basement- like that Plato's cave methaphor.

I tell you this people are aware that things like the Brahma Kumaris can become very powerful and conquer the world but they know it's a fake, they know this can and might happen and they are not afraid. Cause they know the truth lying behind it.
Sorry I can't be more specific, I may loose my neck for that...
But do your own research and maybe you'll see what i mean.

Best wishes to you

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

Kikas · Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21

Hapiness is not the reason why we exist, I wasn't saying you could not be happy, you can be but you'll see that hapiness is from duality you have the two sides of the coin- hapiness and unhapiness yin and yang. There is nothing wrong for being happy, but there is nothing wrong with being unhappy too. I mean you if you feel that you should go for hapiness, well go if it's your truth. But both are two sides of the same coin. That is why programs like the bk cicle can work, you had the both halfs of it ,didn't you? Transcend that and you'll see that there is even higher experiences than hapiness, much higher...

I also didn't say not to meditate, meditate if you like it's good. About the sanskars, while you are so obcessed in getting read of the things you don't like as if they were bothering you, like virus, they won't leave alone. They are your friends and are showing you something, once you listen to what they are trying to tell you and say to you and if you nurture them with light and compreension like a father to a child they start naturally to disapear. Anger??? Listen to what she is trying to tell you... What fears are hidden and you don't want to see, what pains are you running away from.... I give you my example... There was this sister, and she was extremly bossy with me and everyone, no one could stand her, and much more confront her... When I left I realise I had so much anger I was trying to repress inside me, cause as god's children you aren't supposed to be angry, right? But now I wasn't there anymore and I was totally freaked out with all the manipulation and explotation i had let myself let into. So I let myself feel the anger and all the things I was feeling for her... I thought she was the enemy that provoked all of that anger, but behind the anger there was fear and pain of not being able to affirm myself, of knowing what was right and deal with the situation. On the back of my mind I always thought the others to be always more rightous than me even in the things that were about me or they thought about me. In fact my anger was a deep fear that needed healing, nurture and understanding, like you would do for a small child. Once I listened to this small child, we became friends, so my fear and I started coperating with one another and it would suggest me what could I use next, or do next to help him heal. In the end it thanked me, and I thanked him. I don't hate the sister anymore, I realized that if it wasn't for her it would be someone else. She can be whatever she likes, so i can be whatever i like too. But instead of thinking she was the problem i just saw what was the problem i had in me with her, why did she had that effect on me. Now if someone has a problem and I am at peace with myself, not repressing, totally natural that means that the small child of fear has matured into the quality or strengh that was being repressed, and the person with the problem has to solve it herself. The difference from the bk thing is that I believe in my self more than someone else telling me how am I supposed to feel. I know it by my heart- that's is my God now. I became more affirmative and secure of my self and I'm still learning. The anger came because the small child wasn't being heard, so of course, what can a small child do?
So when i told you to be obcessed with your sanskars was useless i meant that... If it works for you, fine. It didn't for me. We always fight our enemies and understand our friends. Being at war with the sankars is not different form the wars in the world outside. it's the same attitude. They are part of you, love them, they are a beautiful part of you begging to grow, small children asking for their father's attention and compreension. Let yourself feel whatever you feel and then listen to those feelings, why are they there and why are they crying?What are they asking to grow about. They are potential seeds of strenght inside you, did you know that? And also sometimes expresssing them in a balanced way can help, I'm not saying to scream to everyone that annoys you, but bringing them to light, like: "I'm sorry but your comment made me feel upset." (Yes!!! I can get upset!! Wow) Cause then you are saying to yourself, I love everything I am, I accept everything I am, and if this feeling came from me, then I love it too- Wouldn't you like to be loved for whatever you are? Or do you think you have to become worthy of love?. -It's my small child and I love my children, I'm not going to punish them for being what they are. I'll help them to grow.
Wrong and right, good and bad, hapiness and unhapiness, black and white. Duality. They all are just two sides of the same coin, so get out of the coin... unless you like that.
Anger always hides a fear, fear always hides pain, pain always hides a child needing growth and understanding.

Much love to you

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

Hi Kikas,
Well, I think I still disagree with you on the meaning of life thing.
I do want to be happy and I do want others to be happy too.
So, it may be simplistic but............."Happy thoughts" as Peter Pan said...........Look what happened to him when he forgot to have happy thoughts!
Love from wahl.

Kikas · Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21

Hi Wahl, it's fine.
Follow what you think it's better for you. And like I said I'm not against happiness or making other people happy.
Can I just ask you, what do you think happens after living happily ever after.

Love
Kikas

Guest · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject:

Guest · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:09 am Post subject:

Dear brothers and sisters,

Omshanti. I respect the various kinds of sentiments expressed by various souls towards the murli and Baba. There is a saying in Hindi, which goes like this: "Jaaki rahi bhaavana jaisi, prabhu moorat dekhi tin taisi," i.e. as is the feeling/emotion of a person, so is the form/image of God seen by him/her. As is the character of oneself, so does one desire the image of God to be.

While recognizing and giving importance to the power of 'love' that is being discussed here, the incorporeal Supreme Soul Shiva, after taking a divine incarnation on this Earth, does not begin right away giving lectures on serious knowledge or does not start scolding the children for their mistakes. For this reason, he initially takes the medium of the soul of Krishna or Dada Lekhraj (Brahma) to play the role of mother. Just as in the outside world, it is mother, to whom a child relates itself with. The child knows about its father only when the mother introduces the child to him. Similarly, in the path of knowledge, God Shiva gives maximum love and affection through the soul of Krishna or Brahma, i.e. Dada Lekhraj, who is shown in the picture of Trinity or Trimurthy as sitting in an easy posture, wearing light, white clothes. Shiva plays the role of a "Karavanhaar", i.e. a doer through Brahma. He does not care whether anyone inculcates the knowledge or not. The proof for this fact is that Shvbaba never scolded or corrected anyone in the murli by name. No Brahmakumar, who has met Dada Lekhraj can claim that he/she had experienced any kind of anger, or negative reaction from him. But the same cannot be said to be true about the children, many of whom took undue advantage of his love and affection and violated the Shrimat (i.e. Godly directions). Finally, Dada Lekhraj left his body, unable to bear such behaviour of the children. It was only due to such behaviour of the children that he scolded them indirectly through the murlis, examples of which have been quoted by Babbit. But since this is a Godly family, and murli is narrated only in front of those souls, who accept God to be mother and father, they should not mind the occassional affectionate reprimands for their violations of Shrimat. Even in the outside world parents scold or beat or guide their children to develop their personality. That does not mean that they do not love them.

So, when children did not reform through the love and affection of Brahma, the incorporeal Supreme shifted his area of activity and bodily medium and also his mode of teaching. He started playing the role of a father through Shankar 1976 onwards. Since he had already set an example of highest actions through Brahma, he played the role of 'Karaavanhaar' or enabler through this father. He says in the murlis that Shankar is the martial of the spiritual army. Because of his strict nature, when compared to Brahma, Shankar is shown in a strict posture, and without any clothing (referring to his complete soul consciousness). That does not mean that he is strict towards everyone. He says that through his present medium he is strict only towards those who violate the Shrimat, and not towards those who follow the Shrimat.

But as it has already been said, the image of God depends on the nature of the seeker. Some like his loveful image, some like his stict image. But there are also some who like a balanced image - neither completely loveful, nor completely lawful. So, when the role of Vishnu begins in the confluence age, through the corporeal medium of Prajapita (head of the Rudra mala) and Vaishnavi Devi (head of the vijaymala), then the Supreme Soul plays the balanced role of love and law. That is why Vishnu has been shown with all kinds of decorations and in a standing posture in the picture of Trinity. But the beginning of the role of Vishnu also signals the nearing of the end of Shiva's role on this Earth, the time for his departure.

So, I feel that God plays all the kinds of roles that are suitable for the variety of souls present in this world drama stage. He plays a loveful role, strict role as well as a balanced role. It depends on us, how we observe him or want him to be, based on our actions.
With regards,
Arjuna

wahl · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England

Hi Arjuna,
Thank you very much for you input. The effect of the murli on souls is so varied. I believe that any response to the murli is eventually is positive, even if it begins as with a negative reaction. Karma 'rules' no matter how we try to think differently!
Quite a number of postings on this site talk about Baba scolding his children. I don't see it like that.......he is saying it as it is.This is only my personal view, but I feel that Baba never ever gives the knowledge with any form of anger. He is not capable of it. So, scolding, for me, is not the accurate word........I call it advice. He is merely pointing out how karma works and we can take it or leave it, love or hate it. Baba is always constant, eternally stable, and, as I mentioned before, the consistency within the murli is something that has always been important for me.
I have questioned the agenda of the Brahma Kumaris organisation in the past, but looking back, that questioning was always activated by some personal experience with another Brahmin soul and never from the content of the murli.
I have obviously been fortunate enough to attend centres where the murli is read without any personal intervention from the reader. I was quite surprised to see the number of postings that mentioned this practice, which I find totally wrong and have never experienced. The murli, is a fascinating medium and I feel that we get from it what we want need to learn according to our karma at that particular point in time.
We do have a choice how we react to everything, the murli, relationships, circumstances...........this is one of the lessons of karma. However, sometimes (most of the time) we kick and scream because we don't like the bare facts that are staring us in the face.........so we subconsciously twist it to suit our current needs. We will do this time and time again until the lessons come back hard and even harder in our every day life, until we HAVE to listen. To know how to listen requires that we know where we want to end up.........do we want to be happy?........there lies another subject!
Thank you again Arjuna,
love
wahl